Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #11

[Inspector_North]

BD also claims to be told about DM's arrest on the 10th. He also claims that MS didn't use his 2 phones after the 10th. MM did say he grabbed her phone to call AM. Very confusing. MOO

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TlebQlyw__2QSDhYkGxMU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0

 

[matou]

I wonder how MM is going to do on the cross on Monday?

 

[Alethea Dice]

It could be. To be more accurate, per exhibit 37, 7086 MS last communicated with a tower on May 6 at 9:20 pm, right after the exchange of messages with 2790 MM, and next communicated with a tower on May 7 at 9:18 am. Whether the phone was shut off, the SIM card or battery pulled, or the battery died, we don't know, do we?

I looked yesterday and couldn't find the content of those texts. It's an assumption based on MM's testimony that that is when she heard from MS that he was driving. (She said "called"?) Did I miss the content somewhere?

Also, the final cell ping of Smich's phone at 9:20pm could possibly be when he told Meneses he couldn't talk because he was driving. Taking the cell tower/surveillance video discrepancy into account, this would have been a few minutes before he drove past Super Sucker, or just after they pulled out of the farm field near Bosma's house.

I couldn't find a record of those text messages being shown either.

The final ping at 9:20 pm was a text, not a call, according to the pings exhibit. MS received a text from MM at 8:44 pm. Then at 9:02 pm, DM received a text from MM. At 9:05 DM called TB. At 9:19 pm, MS received another text from MM, and at 9:20:17 MS sent a text to MM. After that, at 9:20:46, MS received another text from MM. It would seem that he didn't receive that last one until he turned the phone back on in the morning, since the outgoing communication stopped at 9:20:17.

If there was also a call and a short conversation around 9:00 pm, it would seem to have had to have been sometime in the middle of these text messages. I find the timing very suspicious for MS to have been driving alone in the Yukon at that point. (Is it easier to text while driving than to talk on the phone??) Sorry, but I would need to see the evidence of a phone call made between those two phones and/or the content of those text messages to believe that conversation actually took place.

JMO

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LUH8AIqxz_A5BaPXaGFPoyS8wM9CJAGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#slide=id.p36

 

[Alethea Dice]

Hmm, maybe he texted her that he was driving and was busy?? And it wasn't an actual voice call? I'm pretty sure she said she called him.

ETA: Yes, she said one phone call.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Apr 21
She says they had one phone call and that he said he was busy driving. But Smich doesn't drive, didn't have a license or a car.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Apr 21
Fraser asks if she asked him what he was doing. "He said he was driving and he was busy," she says. This was the evening of May 6, around 9.

 

[Typhoo1961]

How did Smich and Millard meet?

Love at first sight in a Tim Hortons? They just hit eyes, and Mark's were all big, and it was like he was in love with Dell.

:blowkiss:​

 

[Mikala]

How did Smich and Millard meet? Have we found out yet?

First time posting, but following the case. I live nearby and was a pilot, hence my initial interest, in part. As a female pilot, I made observations of male pilots, to the extent that they mostly all like cars too, like to drive fast, do adventurous things, drink beer/alcohol, party, hang out with the "guys", and talk about the "girls".....
They're all intelligent, safety conscious while being reckless at the same time (if there's such a thing), are able to multi-task, and can talk the good talk. I've never met one who murders though.

Aside from that, that's always been my question...why were Millard and Smich hanging out together in the first place? They are two very different people, on so many levels, that the only connection I can see frankly, is smoking weed. I see Smich as likely having connections in that regard, as well as connections on where to buy a gun.
Smich was unemployed, had no money, smoked cigarettes, wanted to be a rapper, and from what I see it seems no wonder he was "in love" with Millard. The guy had money, could pay for trips, Smich could live rent-free, get a lot of free weed, have fun hanging out, going to parties, talking cars, talking guns, going boating, practicing gun shooting, going car racing....

I'm not sure what Millard did with his life after he flew solo in a helicopter. It doesn't sound to me like he actually did a whole lot of flying, because you have to fly regularly to stay current, and flying isn't cheap.
Looking at his psychological makeup, he was an only child, separated parents, I heard his father drank a lot (as did his father's g/f), and it seems Millard could rather do whatever he wanted.
I wonder how early he starting taking drugs, younger brains turn into bi-polar brains when they get older....

For those who wonder about court proceedings, as a former Court Reporter, I will say that the majority of work for a murder trial is done before the trial. Everyone has made a "statement", all parties are served with copies of those statements, and questions can only be asked with respect to those statements. So in other words, Millard and his lawyer already knew that MM was going to say Dell shot Bosma (as per Smich). There really aren't any surprises in a trial. There must be full disclosure by both sides.

Finally, the jurors will have an official court transcript for each day's proceeding. The transcript doesn't show that a particular lawyer was red in the face, yelling.....
Theatrics don't show as evidence on a transcript.
Many of us speculate, make assumptions, try to figure out a scenario, but in reality, only the evidence must tell the story, we can't make up the story and then try to fit the evidence.

When a lawyer cross-examines, they ask "leading" questions only. A bit of advice given to me once, don't ever ask a witness a question when you don't know how they're going to answer.
The way the cross-examining question is asked, is often more important than the answer, in terms of what is being revealed.

There's also been some discussion on the extent of legal arguments made during this trial. But please keep in mind, legal arguments are a good thing. The law is very complex, and if all the i's are dotted, and t's crossed, then there shouldn't be grounds for a successful appeal.

From a legal perspective, this is an extremely interesting and complex case, and it's the perfect lesson as to how the Canadian justice system works. Justice must be done, but justice must also be "seen" to have been done.

My prayers are with the Bosma family, this is an exhausting process.

 

[EspressoBean]

I noticed a few WSers in this thread saying that MM was just 18 at the time of crime, but wouldn't she have been 19?

Here's a tweet from yesterday:


Not that 19 is all that much more mature, of course. :lamb: MOO

Yes. She was 19 at the time of the crime. They had been dating about a year.

 

[Elisabeth]

BeeRadley


:welcome6:


FWIW a "juicer'' back in the 70's was a drinker......so I have presumed all along that MS liked to be ''juiced''....MOO

Bob Dylan: Like a rolling Stone. The subject of this song went to the finest school but only got juiced in it.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Once upon a time you dressed so fine You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you ? People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall" You thought they were all kiddin' you You used to laugh about Everybody that was hangin' out Now you don't talk so loud Now you don't seem so proud About having to be scrounging for your next meal.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] CHORUS How does it feel How does it feel To be without a home Like a complete unknown Like a rolling stone?[/FONT]		[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]so fine so well bums homeless people in your prime in your best years doll girl kiddin' you joking hangin' out spending time there (the bums) scrounging looking around, trying to get something for free[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] rolling stone not a reference to the Rolling Stones. Like them, Dylan more likely took this phrase from the old saying, "A rolling stone gathers no moss."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely But you know you only used to get juiced in it And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it You said you'd never compromise With the mystery tramp, but know you realize He's not selling any alibis As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes And say do you want to make a deal?[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CHORUS[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How does it feel How does it feel To be on your own With no direction home Like a complete unknown Like a rolling stone ?[/FONT]

 

[flipflop]

First time posting, but following the case. I live nearby and was a pilot, hence my initial interest, in part. As a female pilot, I made observations of male pilots, to the extent that they mostly all like cars too, like to drive fast, do adventurous things, drink beer/alcohol, party, hang out with the "guys", and talk about the "girls".....
They're all intelligent, safety conscious while being reckless at the same time (if there's such a thing), are able to multi-task, and can talk the good talk. I've never met one who murders though.

Aside from that, that's always been my question...why were Millard and Smich hanging out together in the first place? They are two very different people, on so many levels, that the only connection I can see frankly, is smoking weed. I see Smich as likely having connections in that regard, as well as connections on where to buy a gun.
Smich was unemployed, had no money, smoked cigarettes, wanted to be a rapper, and from what I see it seems no wonder he was "in love" with Millard. The guy had money, could pay for trips, Smich could live rent-free, get a lot of free weed, have fun hanging out, going to parties, talking cars, talking guns, going boating, practicing gun shooting, going car racing....

I'm not sure what Millard did with his life after he flew solo in a helicopter. It doesn't sound to me like he actually did a whole lot of flying, because you have to fly regularly to stay current, and flying isn't cheap.
Looking at his psychological makeup, he was an only child, separated parents, I heard his father drank a lot (as did his father's g/f), and it seems Millard could rather do whatever he wanted.
I wonder how early he starting taking drugs, younger brains turn into bi-polar brains when they get older....

For those who wonder about court proceedings, as a former Court Reporter, I will say that the majority of work for a murder trial is done before the trial. Everyone has made a "statement", all parties are served with copies of those statements, and questions can only be asked with respect to those statements. So in other words, Millard and his lawyer already knew that MM was going to say Dell shot Bosma (as per Smich). There really aren't any surprises in a trial. There must be full disclosure by both sides.

Finally, the jurors will have an official court transcript for each day's proceeding. The transcript doesn't show that a particular lawyer was red in the face, yelling.....
Theatrics don't show as evidence on a transcript.
Many of us speculate, make assumptions, try to figure out a scenario, but in reality, only the evidence must tell the story, we can't make up the story and then try to fit the evidence.

When a lawyer cross-examines, they ask "leading" questions only. A bit of advice given to me once, don't ever ask a witness a question when you don't know how they're going to answer.
The way the cross-examining question is asked, is often more important than the answer, in terms of what is being revealed.

There's also been some discussion on the extent of legal arguments made during this trial. But please keep in mind, legal arguments are a good thing. The law is very complex, and if all the i's are dotted, and t's crossed, then there shouldn't be grounds for a successful appeal.

From a legal perspective, this is an extremely interesting and complex case, and it's the perfect lesson as to how the Canadian justice system works. Justice must be done, but justice must also be "seen" to have been done.

My prayers are with the Bosma family, this is an exhausting process.

I think it was because DM could control MS. As MM stated DM never paid them, but would pay for their cell phone or buy them things and offer them a free place to stay. With MS and MM having no money and DM offering to pay for various things, this would leave them hanging off of DM's coat tails and always there when he snapped his fingers. JMO Welcome to websleuth!!!

 

[Georgeo]

First time posting, but following the case. I live nearby and was a pilot, hence my initial interest, in part. As a female pilot, I made observations of male pilots, to the extent that they mostly all like cars too, like to drive fast, do adventurous things, drink beer/alcohol, party, hang out with the "guys", and talk about the "girls".....
They're all intelligent, safety conscious while being reckless at the same time (if there's such a thing), are able to multi-task, and can talk the good talk. I've never met one who murders though.

Aside from that, that's always been my question...why were Millard and Smich hanging out together in the first place? They are two very different people, on so many levels, that the only connection I can see frankly, is smoking weed. I see Smich as likely having connections in that regard, as well as connections on where to buy a gun.
Smich was unemployed, had no money, smoked cigarettes, wanted to be a rapper, and from what I see it seems no wonder he was "in love" with Millard. The guy had money, could pay for trips, Smich could live rent-free, get a lot of free weed, have fun hanging out, going to parties, talking cars, talking guns, going boating, practicing gun shooting, going car racing....

I'm not sure what Millard did with his life after he flew solo in a helicopter. It doesn't sound to me like he actually did a whole lot of flying, because you have to fly regularly to stay current, and flying isn't cheap.
Looking at his psychological makeup, he was an only child, separated parents, I heard his father drank a lot (as did his father's g/f), and it seems Millard could rather do whatever he wanted.
I wonder how early he starting taking drugs, younger brains turn into bi-polar brains when they get older....

For those who wonder about court proceedings, as a former Court Reporter, I will say that the majority of work for a murder trial is done before the trial. Everyone has made a "statement", all parties are served with copies of those statements, and questions can only be asked with respect to those statements. So in other words, Millard and his lawyer already knew that MM was going to say Dell shot Bosma (as per Smich). There really aren't any surprises in a trial. There must be full disclosure by both sides.

Finally, the jurors will have an official court transcript for each day's proceeding. The transcript doesn't show that a particular lawyer was red in the face, yelling.....
Theatrics don't show as evidence on a transcript.
Many of us speculate, make assumptions, try to figure out a scenario, but in reality, only the evidence must tell the story, we can't make up the story and then try to fit the evidence.

When a lawyer cross-examines, they ask "leading" questions only. A bit of advice given to me once, don't ever ask a witness a question when you don't know how they're going to answer.
The way the cross-examining question is asked, is often more important than the answer, in terms of what is being revealed.

There's also been some discussion on the extent of legal arguments made during this trial. But please keep in mind, legal arguments are a good thing. The law is very complex, and if all the i's are dotted, and t's crossed, then there shouldn't be grounds for a successful appeal.

From a legal perspective, this is an extremely interesting and complex case, and it's the perfect lesson as to how the Canadian justice system works. Justice must be done, but justice must also be "seen" to have been done.

My prayers are with the Bosma family, this is an exhausting process.

Thank you for your explanation re various legal processes and rules, however all the games with regard to wording of a cross examining question and knowing the answer witness will give exactly makes the whole legal process seem scripted like a movie or reality show! These two are guilty period. Why all the theatrics and hope for no successful appeal? The evidence is clear. Witnesses are clear. Why do we owe these two so much latitude and benefit of the doubt? Was Tim Bosma treated this way? His life was extinguished with no warning, no reason, and he has zero chance of a second chance or appeal! Moo

 

[Georgeo]

Cant wait for the theatrics to start on Monday with Pillay cros examining Marlena Meneses,

 

[matou]

Welcome Mikala! Great first post!

:welcome4::welcome4:

 

[MsSherlock]

Cant wait for the theatrics to start on Monday with Pillay cros examining Marlena Meneses,

I've been giving the cross examination a lot of thought. IMHO, I would expect that we're going to hear the same old stuff from the P&S team but as Mikala (welcome Mikala) pointed out, they certainly don't want to ask a question they don't know the answer to and IMHO, MM may have some answers they don't want to hear. I also think that MM is by all accounts a very reputable witness. She gave a statement right away. She heard them talking about stealing the truck, she got into the Yukon with the DM & MS the next morning when they were so happy about such a successful mission. I don't even know how far P & S will get with "it was great having DM as a friend" because IMHO, none of DM's other friends had to clean his toilets for any of their perks. She doesn't seem to have any problem believing MS's story about DM killing TB. I think P & S have a very big challenge ahead of them.

IMO, Dungey on the other hand has a hard task since MM's testimony has been so incriminating on MS as well. What can Dungey attack her on? She didn't think any of it was OK. She cut it off with his client as soon as he was arrested. Once again, he doesn't want to ask her something he isn't 100% certain of the answer. He may even keep it really short and simple, straight on what MS told her about Dell killing TB. That's all he really wants the Jury to focus on. His cross should be interesting as well!

If I had to guess, both D teams would just as soon pretend that MM wasn't even a witness. If they close their eyes, maybe she'll go away? MOO

 

[mozzagirl]

I've been giving the cross examination a lot of thought. IMHO, I would expect that we're going to hear the same old stuff from the P&S team but as Mikala (welcome Mikala) pointed out, they certainly don't want to ask a question they don't know the answer to and IMHO, MM may have some answers they don't want to hear. I also think that MM is by all accounts a very reputable witness. She gave a statement right away. She heard them talking about stealing the truck, she got into the Yukon with the DM & MS the next morning when they were so happy about such a successful mission. I don't even know how far P & S will get with "it was great having DM as a friend" because IMHO, none of DM's other friends had to clean his toilets for any of their perks. She doesn't seem to have any problem believing MS's story about DM killing TB. I think P & S have a very big challenge ahead of them.

IMO, Dungey on the other hand has a hard task since MM's testimony has been so incriminating on MS as well. What can Dungey attack her on? She didn't think any of it was OK. She cut it off with his client as soon as he was arrested. Once again, he doesn't want to ask her something he isn't 100% certain of the answer. He may even keep it really short and simple, straight on what MS told her about Dell killing TB. That's all he really wants the Jury to focus on. His cross should be interesting as well!

If I had to guess, both D teams would just as soon pretend that MM wasn't even a witness. If they close their eyes, maybe she'll go away? MOO

I agree completely with all of your post.

MM knows too much and I think when it comes to cross it is best for both D to not poke the bear, so to speak. She may cough up more info if they ask her the wrong questions.

I think if they go after anything it will be about who did MM hear say they wanted to "celebrate" and "mission complete" in the Yukon the next morning. The other thing would be to pick apart her statement made a week ago.

All, MOO.

 

[hellkat2]

First time posting, but following the case. I live nearby and was a pilot, hence my initial interest, in part. As a female pilot, I made observations of male pilots, to the extent that they mostly all like cars too, like to drive fast, do adventurous things, drink beer/alcohol, party, hang out with the "guys", and talk about the "girls".....
They're all intelligent, safety conscious while being reckless at the same time (if there's such a thing), are able to multi-task, and can talk the good talk. I've never met one who murders though.

Aside from that, that's always been my question...why were Millard and Smich hanging out together in the first place? They are two very different people, on so many levels, that the only connection I can see frankly, is smoking weed. I see Smich as likely having connections in that regard, as well as connections on where to buy a gun.
Smich was unemployed, had no money, smoked cigarettes, wanted to be a rapper, and from what I see it seems no wonder he was "in love" with Millard. The guy had money, could pay for trips, Smich could live rent-free, get a lot of free weed, have fun hanging out, going to parties, talking cars, talking guns, going boating, practicing gun shooting, going car racing....

I'm not sure what Millard did with his life after he flew solo in a helicopter. It doesn't sound to me like he actually did a whole lot of flying, because you have to fly regularly to stay current, and flying isn't cheap.
Looking at his psychological makeup, he was an only child, separated parents, I heard his father drank a lot (as did his father's g/f), and it seems Millard could rather do whatever he wanted.
I wonder how early he starting taking drugs, younger brains turn into bi-polar brains when they get older....

For those who wonder about court proceedings, as a former Court Reporter, I will say that the majority of work for a murder trial is done before the trial. Everyone has made a "statement", all parties are served with copies of those statements, and questions can only be asked with respect to those statements. So in other words, Millard and his lawyer already knew that MM was going to say Dell shot Bosma (as per Smich). There really aren't any surprises in a trial. There must be full disclosure by both sides.

Finally, the jurors will have an official court transcript for each day's proceeding. The transcript doesn't show that a particular lawyer was red in the face, yelling.....
Theatrics don't show as evidence on a transcript.
Many of us speculate, make assumptions, try to figure out a scenario, but in reality, only the evidence must tell the story, we can't make up the story and then try to fit the evidence.

When a lawyer cross-examines, they ask "leading" questions only. A bit of advice given to me once, don't ever ask a witness a question when you don't know how they're going to answer.
The way the cross-examining question is asked, is often more important than the answer, in terms of what is being revealed.

There's also been some discussion on the extent of legal arguments made during this trial. But please keep in mind, legal arguments are a good thing. The law is very complex, and if all the i's are dotted, and t's crossed, then there shouldn't be grounds for a successful appeal.

From a legal perspective, this is an extremely interesting and complex case, and it's the perfect lesson as to how the Canadian justice system works. Justice must be done, but justice must also be "seen" to have been done.

My prayers are with the Bosma family, this is an exhausting process.

IMO...ms followed dm like a puppy dog. smetch's gf said smich was in love with dellen which implies a little more than your regular bromance. Mallard and smich can write love letters to each other in prison for the rest of their life for all I care. I wish they still had capital punishment in Canada for cases like this. I hope they come to a verdict asap for these two and send them to a cell for the rest of their lives. Someone posted that in the US courts have limits of a year to have a murder cases come to trial and it has been two years for this case to come to trial as Canada does not have legislation of this nature. Justice delayed is justice denied. IMO it gives the criminals lots of time to lawyer up and get their stories carefully scripted to support the case that both the defense and the prosecution are attempting to build. The former partners in crime of Mallard and Smich are testifying to attempt to save themselves from prosecution. IMO evil walks amongst the family of the victim and there is something intrinsically wrong with this. In a lot of ways ...justice must be seen to have been done but the length of time this has taken to get to trial and the fact that the family is watching these people testifying against their buddy dellen and then walking free and around them in the court room is not seeing justice in my opinion. Particularly for the family of the victims, it is victimizing and the fact that they are having to revisit this over two years later is not a good thing. This should have been cut a dried and would have been if they got this to trial in a timely manner. Thanks for your thought provoking comments.

 

[MsSherlock]

Wonder if DM has finally realized that he's not going to lie his way out of this one? The reality of being found guilty of first degree and spending the rest of his life behind bars must be sinking in by now. MOO

 

[mozzagirl]

Wonder if DM has finally realized that he's not going to lie his way out of this one? The reality of being found guilty of first degree and spending the rest of his life behind bars must be sinking in by now. MOO

IMO, he is not in touch with reality at all. He probably will never understand what he has done or care, either. The fact that this far into the trial he is apparently still standing and smiling at the spectators and Bosma family shows how out of touch he is.

 

[Inspector_North]

I think we have to remember that we are not entering into the closing season of a reality show. The bizarre world of Dellen Millard has taken away a decent man, friend, husband, father and son. Those that love him will need support and time to heal after these very troubling times.

This horrific crime has captured the interest of many, and I was very disappointed in hearing about the crowds behaviour on Thursday. I will be trying my hardest to ensure I respect the Bosma family with my every post.

MOO

 

[hellkat2]

Wonder if DM has finally realized that he's not going to lie his way out of this one? The reality of being found guilty of first degree and spending the rest of his life behind bars must be sinking in by now. MOO

I feel that DM will lie till he is blue in the face just like Smich and the rest of the pit crew and gf's. DM will spend the rest of his days hiring various lawyers just because he can.

 

[hopingforjustice]

He's right beside a conservation area so I would bet that there would be a lot of resistance.

What are you considering a conservation area? I have lived and traveled that area my whole life and can't figure out where that would be.
To the left is a small parcel of land with a house, barn and horses, to the left of that is farmers fields, behind DM's farm is a gravel pit and house that friends of mine own, to the right is wooded area -2 lots I believe (one that is up for sale at the moment) and directly across the street is a parcel of land with a building and a small airstrip.