Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[CJPRINCESS]

This really bothered me too. We know how dark it was out there and I can't believe there would be enough light to distinguish what DM was putting in the satchel. Why would MS's mind go straight to a gun rather than a phone or something else?

Im not sure why people are questioning this. The Yukon had headlights.
If DM had LED's or HID's, those would be those blinding blue lights that just about knock me off the road. These are popular conversions for alot of people, if they weren't factory installed already. I'm not saying DM had these but it's a big possibility.

 

[JuneBug67]

This really bothered me too. We know how dark it was out there and I can't believe there would be enough light to distinguish what DM was putting in the satchel. Why would MS's mind go straight to a gun rather than a phone or something else?

After the Yukon stopped the headlights remained on for 10 seconds or so. Adequate time for DM, who would have been at least a second or two ahead of him in stopping, to get out of the Ram and be seen in the light.

ETA CJPRINCESS beat me to it!

 

[Georgeo]

Perhaps ask:

1. why the heck they hid the Yukon where they did? If they were going back they could have just as easily changed cars to protect their identity. Usual timing for thefts was 2-3 am, so they would have had to wait a good 4 hours after the test drive to go back and steal it. Lots of time to change clothes and cars.
2. why didn't they take the red RAM? Could it be because it suddenly had no plates on it?
3. did he know today's Rams require a chipped key? If that was the case they knew they needed the key. How did they plan to get it from teh owner?
4. what actually happened in the neighbour's field?
5. why did he request DM bring him duct tape, what is orange thing--is it an orange tarp? Hangar neighbour recalls seeing an orange tarp being stuffed in the trailer.(I know LE found a green tarp, but he had time between the hangar and picking up CN to put the orange one somewhere--maybe at Riverside where he would try to wash it.)
6. Isn't it possible he also got out of the vehicle at Bobcat? Isn't it possible he was DM's hit man and the signal was, "when we stop, get out and come and shoot him?"
7. Who threw the phone? Which arm is dislocated right or left? With sore arms how did anyone throw it that far from the road? (seems to me it was thrown about 50 ft from the road and that would be flipped over the roof of the car) (I wish LE had done a throwing comparison test). Is that where you f'd up, throwing out the phone?

As DM had a red Dodge Ram, wouldn't he know about the chipped key, or was his Ram too old to have that type of key?

 

[JuneBug67]

I wonder if the headlights remaining on for those 10 seconds can corroborate MS's story of this being an unexpected stop for him. Stop, DM gets out, MS ties to orient himself to what is going on, etc. Could take about 10 seconds for him to turn off or exit the vehicle in that scenario. A planned stop might have led him to stop and turn off the car right away. That said, maybe the Yukon's lights stay on for ten seconds on some kind of automated program independent of what a driver does after turning off the vehicle.

ETA quick Google seems to imply default headlight delay on Yukon is 10 seconds. Does that then imply that MS turned off the ignition the moment he stopped? Hmmmm....

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I wonder if the headlights remaining on for those 10 seconds can corroborate MS's story of this being an unexpected stop for him. Stop, DM gets out, MS ties to orient himself to what is going on, etc. Could take about 10 seconds for him to turn off or exit the vehicle in that scenario. A planned stop might have led him to stop and turn off the car right away. That said, maybe the Yukon's lights stay on for ten seconds on some kind of automated program independent of what a driver does after turning off the vehicle.

ETA quick Google seems to imply default headlight delay on Yukon is 10 seconds.

Do we know even that MS turned the Yukon off when he stopped behind DM?
Maybe DM already got out of Ram as MS was pulling up? The video shows time there as well. MS wasn't right on DM'S tail.
It's a dark grainy video an hard to see much.

 

[Arnie M]

This really bothered me too. We know how dark it was out there and I can't believe there would be enough light to distinguish what DM was putting in the satchel. Why would MS's mind go straight to a gun rather than a phone or something else?

Yes .... and I have watched the Bobcat video several times .... especially where they quickly pull onto the gravel shoulder , Yukon pulls up right behind truck , and right away the headlights are turned off .

One of my questions would be how could MS see what DM was doing when DM got out of the truck ..... the Yukon headlights were pointing directly at the back of the truck and cannot shine on the driver side where DM is supposedly stepping out and putting his gun away .... and he certainly did not step in front of the Yukon headlights or we would have seen him.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Yes .... and I have watched the Bobcat video several times .... especially where they quickly pull onto the gravel shoulder , Yukon pulls up right behind truck , and right away the headlights are turned off .

One of my questions would be how could MS see what DM was doing when DM got out of the truck ..... the Yukon headlights were pointing directly at the back of the truck and cannot shine on the driver side where DM is supposedly stepping out and putting his gun away .... and he certainly did not step in front of the Yukon headlights or we would have seen him.

Headlamps don't just focus directly in front of a vehicle. They are broad range. Reason why we see more then just the road directly in front of us when we drive at night. We turn highbeams on and that broadens our view even more.

 

[palisadesk]

What is more damning for MS is what is allowed to be considered which is he actions and participation after the event. At any time after the "event" he could have walked away and stopped his involvement. He went all the way 1.5 hr drive to burn things and clean things up, etc. No amount of duress from DM should have made him do that if he was innocent.

The judge in his charge to the jury will doubtless go to great pains to explain how the jury can consider post-offense conduct, as it has been the subject of recent SCC decisions that require a more nuanced approach, especially in using post-offense conduct to assess prior intent. I think this will be especially true where MS is concerned,

Here are a few links to the Court's recent ruling and some interpretations with examples:

https://www.nji-inm.ca/index.cfm/pu...conduct-consciousness-of-guilt/?langSwitch=en

http://www.thecourt.ca/2015/09/r-v-rodgerson-how-to-instruct-a-jury-on-post-offence-conduct/

http://www.thecourt.ca/2015/01/live...ury-on-post-offence-conduct-in-r-v-rodgerson/

 

[JuneBug67]

Do we know even that MS turned the Yukon off when he stopped behind DM?
Maybe DM already got out of Ram as MS was pulling up? The video shows time there as well. MS wasn't right on DM'S tail.
It's a dark grainy video an hard to see much.

Yes, DM could already have been getting out which could have prompted MS to turn off the Yukon whether he knew about stop or not. Either way the video shows the Yukon headlights on for 10 seconds after it comes to a full stop. If we assume the lights on auto and using default delay it implies MS turned off the ignition immediately and had 10 seconds of illumination following that.

 

[brightii]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?307749-Bosma-Murder-Trial-05-12-16-Day-48/page2

I'm reviewing MS's testimony from Thursday, (thread link above). I noted a few things that may or may not have significance, but caused me to pause. MS said he was not expecting to have received a gun in the toolbox and thought it was a sign that DM was trying to frame MS. MS said he didn't want to be anywhere near the gun, and yet he said that he was being "pressured" by others to get rid of it. That is telling, to me. Why did MS need to be pressured by others to get rid of the gun if it bothered him so much to have it in his possession?

Also, MS said that he has never "owned" a gun. MS was not asked if he had ever "used" a gun, but MS didn't add that he has never used a gun either. That is an important detail that was not addressed and I wonder why TD did not ask that question?

The day's testimony seemed to me to abruptly end when MS said he "assumed" the gun he received was the murder weapon that DM used to kill TB. Then the legal arguments began. I think DM's defence will challenge MS's assumption because MS has not testified that he got a good look at the murder weapon and only said he thought he saw DM place what appeared to be a gun in DM's satchel when he got out of TB's truck at the Bobcat location.

All MOO.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Im not sure why people are questioning this. The Yukon had headlights.
If DM had LED's or HID's, those would be those blinding blue lights that just about knock me off the road. These are popular conversions for alot of people, if they weren't factory installed already. I'm not saying DM had these but it's a big possibility.

I agree about the headlights, but if the MS testimony coincides with the video at Bobcat, don't both vehicles turn all their lights out immediately after pulling off to the side of the road?


EDIT ... Sorry, I see the post up thread corrects this.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Yes, DM could already have been getting out which could have prompted MS to turn off the Yukon whether he knew about stop or not. Either way the video shows the Yukon headlights on for 10 seconds after it comes to a full stop. If we assume the lights on auto and using default delay it implies MS turned off the ignition immediately and had 10 seconds of illumination following that.

The other thing with some vehicles, you can actually deactivate the timers. I have an 04 Jeep and I can control this through my overhead panel. I can go from 0 seconds or up to 30 seconds. With DM'S crime sprees, I'd assume he has his dimmers set at 0 seconds if he had that feature.

 

[Typhoo1961]

Why did MS need to be pressured by others to get rid of the gun if it bothered him so much to have it in his possession?

As I recall MS's sister sure was pressuring him to get rid of stuff. Possibly his mother as well.

 

[canadiangirl]

AM new tat is kinda disturbing to me.... Shudder

 

[brightii]

As I recall MS's sister sure was pressuring him to get rid of stuff. Possibly his mother as well.

Yes exactly, which makes me wonder why MS would need anyone to pressure him to get rid of what he testified to that he thought was the murder weapon that DM used and then laid on MS to frame him? Being pressured by others suggests to me that MS was resistant about getting rid of the gun. It would make more sense to me that MS would want to get rid of that gun and no one would have had to pressure him to do so unless he actually wanted to keep it for some reason.

All MOO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Perhaps ask:

1. why the heck they hid the Yukon where they did? If they were going back they could have just as easily changed cars to protect their identity. Usual timing for thefts was 2-3 am, so they would have had to wait a good 4 hours after the test drive to go back and steal it. Lots of time to change clothes and cars.
2. why didn't they take the red RAM? Could it be because it suddenly had no plates on it?
3. did he know today's Rams require a chipped key? If that was the case they knew they needed the key. How did they plan to get it from teh owner?
4. what actually happened in the neighbour's field?
5. why did he request DM bring him duct tape, what is orange thing--is it an orange tarp? Hangar neighbour recalls seeing an orange tarp being stuffed in the trailer.(I know LE found a green tarp, but he had time between the hangar and picking up CN to put the orange one somewhere--maybe at Riverside where he would try to wash it.)
6. Isn't it possible he also got out of the vehicle at Bobcat? Isn't it possible he was DM's hit man and the signal was, "when we stop, get out and come and shoot him?"
7. Who threw the phone? Which arm is dislocated right or left? With sore arms how did anyone throw it that far from the road? (seems to me it was thrown about 50 ft from the road and that would be flipped over the roof of the car) (I wish LE had done a throwing comparison test). Is that where you f'd up, throwing out the phone?

Just a few thoughts. Please feel free to add to the list.

How many bangs did you hear at Bobcat?
If you didn't hear bangs then why not??

DM would have had his ears severely damaged for some time if he did the shooting in the closed truck. Nevertheless he communicated with you?

Did Pedo react when he heard bangs?

Why did DM throw out TB's phone at Kemira (1) but wiped it at Bobcat (2), what do you think?

At the farm Dellen told you to go with Pedo and look whether someone had followed you. What would you have done if indeed someone had followed??
Why didn't DM need your help to carry TB out of the truck onto the "sheet" when he after all needed your help later on?
Where had the sheet been until then and for what purpose did DM it use before?

How long did it last to burn the "evidence" at the farm? How long did it last to cool the seat frame down? How did you transport the seat frame??

The frame of the front seats was in the hangar and "DM had forgotten" to load it into the trailer. You had a painful injured arm that night. How were you able to carry the seat frame with DM? How did you both DM/MS carry it exactly? (Tarp or no tarp?)

 

[matou]

From the tweets below from MS's testimony it sounds like it was strictly DM's idea to head to the farm and not part of 'the plan' that MS knew about ............




Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 18m18 minutes ago
Millard sent Smich to get the license plates from his red Dodge Ram. Smich says he was protesting that this was not the plan




Peter Akman ‏@PeterAkmanCTV 18m18 minutes ago
"This is not the plan, this is not how it is supposed to go down." Smich to Millard. He yelled at him to go get new plates #Bosma @CTVNews


molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 18m18 minutes ago
Smich says he was saying "this was not the plan, what the **** is going on." #Bosma


Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 18m18 minutes ago
He didn't look like his normal self. He said go get the plates from his red Dodge Ram. At that point I was still freaking out."


Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 18m18 minutes ago
Smich says he was freaking out. Millard told him to get license plates. "He was loud and forceful" Smich says. "He looked mad like a lunatic


Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 18m18 minutes ago
"He was loud, he was forceful, telling me to go get the plates. I'd never seen him like this. He looked mad. Like a lunatic."


Alex Pierson ‏@AlexpiersonAMP 18m18 minutes ago
"Del gets out of the vehicle. Walks towards me. Looks like he was putting a gun in his satchel. I ask him what's going on" @AM900CHML


molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 18m18 minutes ago
He says Millard looked like a "lunatic." #Bosma


Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 18m18 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
Smich on Millard: "He looked mad, like a lunatic, like something came over him." #Bosma #HamOnt


Peter Akman ‏@PeterAkmanCTV 19m19 minutes ago
"He looked mad, like a lunatic, like something had come over him." Smich about Millard. #Bosma @CTVNews


Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 19m19 minutes ago
"He looked mad. LIke a lunatic...I did not know that he brought a gun." No plan to use a gun to steal truck.


Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 19m19 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
Dungey: Did you know he brought a gun? Smich: I had no idea #Bosma #HamOnt


molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 19m19 minutes ago
Dungey asks if Smich knew Millard had a gun. He did not. Says it was not mentioned in truck theft plan. #Bosma


Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 19m19 minutes ago
"He looked like something took over him," Smich says he went and got the plates. Says he didn't know Millard was bringing a gun. #TimBosma


Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 18m18 minutes ago
I did what he said, Smich says. He says he didn't know Millard had a gun and never mentioned one in the plan. #Bosma




molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 19m19 minutes ago
Smich says as he changed plates Millard was wiping down a phone. "He said everything's going to be alright, just follow me." #Bosma


Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 19m19 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
Smich: He (Millard) said everything's going to be alright. Don't worry, just follow me. #Bosma #HamOnt


Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 19m19 minutes ago
Smich finished with the plates and saw Millard wiping off a phone. Millard told him everything would be ok, just follow me. #TimBosma


Peter Akman ‏@PeterAkmanCTV 19m19 minutes ago
"He said, everything is going to be alright, just get in the vehicle and follow me." Smich about Millard after shooting #Bosma @CTVNews


Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 19m19 minutes ago
After they switched plates, Millard was wiping off a phone. Smich says he was freaking out. Millard told him to follow. Forcefully


molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 20m20 minutes ago
Dungey asks about his tone. "He was very forceful at first. It didn't change much as time went on." #Bosma


Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 19m19 minutes ago
"He was telling me not to worry because I was shocked, panicked," Smich says.


Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 19m19 minutes ago
"He was very forceful in his tone" Smich says. "It did not change much as time went on." #TimBosma

Is all this yelling at the place in the video where they pulled over? The place with the "two bangs?" If so, then BS. No voices heard in the video. Unless the voices were removed from the video for some reason.

 

[Typhoo1961]

Yes exactly, which makes me wonder why MS would need anyone to pressure him to get rid of what he testified to that he thought was the murder weapon that DM used and then laid on MS to frame him? Being pressured by others suggests to me that MS was resistant about getting rid of the gun. It would make more sense to me that MS would want to get rid of that gun and no one would have had to pressure him to do so unless he actually wanted to keep it for some reason.

All MOO.

I'm not defending him or excusing what he's done but between the drugs, the alcohol, the murder and lord knows what else, I don't think MS was in a proper frame of mind.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Lol, someone questioned CN on her ankle bracelet (the ballgame pic) Looks like she doesn't need to have a chaperone or wear her anklet anymore. I assumed she'd have these stipulations untill her trial?

 

[Typhoo1961]

Is all this yelling at the place in the video where they pulled over? The place with the "two bangs?" If so, then BS. No voices heard in the video. Unless the voices were removed from the video for some reason.

The sound version of the video has not been released to the public so I don't know. Apparently the reporters decided not to release it so I have heard but I could be wrong.