Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[JuneBug67]

The thing I dread most about this week coming is the near certainty that DM's team will pitch an explicit new theory of the crime through their questioning. The imagery of MS's story had to have been a searing and difficult-beyond-words experience for Tim's loved ones. This week will likely bring a new set of terrible scenes and pictures to mind and Tim's people will have to live through this again, and not even have the comfort of closure through a final truth. If things unfold as it is reasonable to expect at least one and probably both of these men will have directly or indirectly lied about the details of Tim's last minutes and death. If MS is proved to have been lying he will deserve the wrath of decent people everywhere for effectively torturing the Bosmas with descriptions of these events during both direct and cross that in the end they can't even rely on. Ugh. For this reason more than any other there is a big part of me that hopes he is telling the truth and that somehow that comes through. I realize the odds are not with me.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Any thoughts as to why the Super Sucker videos were not addressed in the MS testimony? The existence of those videos completely contradicts MS's testimony as to what occurred on May 6, does it not?

MOO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

This may very well come up again in cross. I also wonder why it took so long to get to the Yukon in the field if they went straight there as MS states. They could have walked there in a lot less time, depending on how close to the real time the neighbour estimated his sighting of them pulling out of the laneway. JMO

 

[Claroon]

Sorry, folks ... Tried to add this to my previous post via an edit, but wasn't able to. Trying to make my point again ...


Any thoughts as to why the Super Sucker videos were not addressed in the MS testimony? The existence of those videos completely contradicts MS's testimony as to what occurred on May 6, does it not?

MS said in his testimony that at the end of the Bosma driveway, as they were leaving for the test drive, DM pretended to get a text msg. from the non-existent person who had dropped them off and gone to Tim Horton's. DM said 3rd person was lost, and then took MS to where they had stashed the Yukon (just around the corner from the Bosma home), and told MS to join this non-existent 3rd party in the Yukon and follow them so that after the test drive they could all depart in the Yukon. MS says he complied, got into the Yukon and followed them.

From Billandrew's timeline: (A huge thank you for this!)

9:05 pm pick-up truck passes Super Sucker going north on Trinity Rd.

9:15 pm pick-up truck passes Super Sucker going south on Trinity Rd.

9:20 pm pick-up truck, followed by Yukon, passes Super Sucker going north on Trinity Road.

MOO

Do you have a link to your quote about what you said?

I got this from Adam Carter and to me it jives with the video.

"Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
I sort of took the hint he wanted me to get into the other vehicle. I got out, Dell pulled a U-Turn, and I got into the Yukon." Bosma


Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
"When he pulled up there, he looked over at me and said why don't you guys come and follow us," #TimBosma #Bosma

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
Millard hit the brakes, and said his friend couldn't find Tim Hortons and he was around the corner. Then they drove around the corner #Bosma"

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Sorry, folks ... Tried to add this to my previous post via an edit, but wasn't able to. Trying to make my point again ...


Any thoughts as to why the Super Sucker videos were not addressed in the MS testimony? The existence of those videos completely contradicts MS's testimony as to what occurred on May 6, does it not?

MS said in his testimony that at the end of the Bosma driveway, as they were leaving for the test drive, DM pretended to get a text msg. from the non-existent person who had dropped them off and gone to Tim Horton's. DM said 3rd person was lost, and then took MS to where they had stashed the Yukon (just around the corner from the Bosma home), and told MS to join this non-existent 3rd party in the Yukon and follow them so that after the test drive they could all depart in the Yukon. MS says he complied, got into the Yukon and followed them.

From Billandrew's timeline: (A huge thank you for this!)

9:05 pm pick-up truck passes Super Sucker going north on Trinity Rd.

9:15 pm pick-up truck passes Super Sucker going south on Trinity Rd.

9:20 pm pick-up truck, followed by Yukon, passes Super Sucker going north on Trinity Road.

MOO

They were still walking up the driveway at 9:05pm. Maybe the 9:05 truck was not TB'S.

ETA: according to time line, Bates phone called TB at 9:05 pm, so that 9:05 truck couldn't be TB'S truck.

 

[palisadesk]

Any thoughts as to why the Super Sucker videos were not addressed in the MS testimony? The existence of those videos completely contradicts MS's testimony as to what occurred on May 6, does it not?

That depends on which Super Sucker videos -- the ones in the Crown's evidence presentation, via Plaxton's report, or the ones introduced by Pillay in his cross examination of the same witness?

The Crown's evidence is consistent with MS's testimony. It reports the SuperSucker video capturing the Yukon going south on Trinity at 8:46 pm. We know from the phone records that the two men appeared in the Bosma's driveway approximately 9:05 pm. The Crown evidence from the Super Sucker video then showed the truck, followed by the Yukon, going north on Trinity at 9:20.

This would allow for the diversion to the Yukon, etc. as described by MS.

Plaxton did not mention, in his report that was part of the Crown evidence, that the same truck (in his opinion) was also captured going north on Trinity at 9:05 pm (that is, immediately after leaving TB's house, without any diversion, if it's the same truck) and returning at 9:15, which was evidence brought to the attention of the jury (and us) by Ravin Pillay. Plaxton agreed this was probably the same truck. If it is, it suggests that the two guys, plus Tim, were all in the truck as it went north on the "test drive" and then within a ten-minute frame, turned around and came back down south on Trinity, both times without any sign of the Yukon following.

My bet is that Pillay will try to raise doubt about MS's story by calling attention to these videos again, suggesting that indeed MS was with DM and TB for about 10 minutes before they went to pick up the Yukon. That allowed time for the shooting. The truck and the Yukon were then captured one more time by the Super Sucker video about 5 minutes later, going north again, so if the shooting had already occurred, they didn't spend much time in the field dealing with it, they booted it out of there (this timeline jives with the neighbour Bullman's testimony, too)..

A weak link here is that it cannot be established for certain that the truck is TB's truck, although it is consistent with being TB's truck (this is true in the other videos too, and applies to the Yukon as well -- the ID is tentative, but it's pretty persuasive, in context).

If the videos that Pillay called attention to are of TB's truck, then MS's story, as it stands, cannot be true. Pillay will probably make a determined attempt to use this discrepancy (among other things) to discredit MS's story.

ETA: in light of CJ Princess's point, the times on the video are corrected ones and close approximations, but the 9:05 (as per Plaxton) northbound truck could certainly have been TB's (as Plaxton affirmed).

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

But it is what he said and I don't believe it. What I see is someone who stayed on course for the robbery and killings, and then burning/clean up. I reject the creditability of him. I am just looking at what he did do but could of while saying he was threatenes, scared and confused.

IMHO Claroon doesn't believe his credibility either ... She was just stating a possible alternate state of mind for MS ... Not excusing him for it.

MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Why does it make any difference who told who what about the toolbox? Why is everyone so focused on this? Where is this going?

Because MS claims he didn't know he was getting it. He says he was only expecting the bag of weed. But AM's testimony, and the text message that MS sent, shows that he not only was expecting the toolbox, but had asked for it to be delivered along with the bag. It's another contradiction in his testimony.

 

[JuneBug67]

Sorry, folks ... Tried to add this to my previous post via an edit, but wasn't able to. Trying to make my point again ...


Any thoughts as to why the Super Sucker videos were not addressed in the MS testimony? The existence of those videos completely contradicts MS's testimony as to what occurred on May 6, does it not?

MS said in his testimony that at the end of the Bosma driveway, as they were leaving for the test drive, DM pretended to get a text msg. from the non-existent person who had dropped them off and gone to Tim Horton's. DM said 3rd person was lost, and then took MS to where they had stashed the Yukon (just around the corner from the Bosma home), and told MS to join this non-existent 3rd party in the Yukon and follow them so that after the test drive they could all depart in the Yukon. MS says he complied, got into the Yukon and followed them.

From Billandrew's timeline: (A huge thank you for this!)

9:05 pm pick-up truck passes Super Sucker going north on Trinity Rd.

9:15 pm pick-up truck passes Super Sucker going south on Trinity Rd.

9:20 pm pick-up truck, followed by Yukon, passes Super Sucker going north on Trinity Road.

MOO

The earlier video evidence of a truck was not part of the Crown's case. It doesn't fit their timeline, or apparently MS's timeline either. This is a rural area and it could have been another truck or trucks captured at 9:05 and 9:15. Connecting the earlier sightings with the case first came up in cross and will likely be raised again this week.

 

[Claroon]

They were still walking up the driveway at 9:05pm. Maybe the 9:05 truck was not TB'S.

And maybe TB took it out for a quick up the road spin and back without SB knowing. IMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Sorry, folks ... Tried to add this to my previous post via an edit, but wasn't able to. Trying to make my point again ...


Any thoughts as to why the Super Sucker videos were not addressed in the MS testimony? The existence of those videos completely contradicts MS's testimony as to what occurred on May 6, does it not?

MS said in his testimony that at the end of the Bosma driveway, as they were leaving for the test drive, DM pretended to get a text msg. from the non-existent person who had dropped them off and gone to Tim Horton's. DM said 3rd person was lost, and then took MS to where they had stashed the Yukon (just around the corner from the Bosma home), and told MS to join this non-existent 3rd party in the Yukon and follow them so that after the test drive they could all depart in the Yukon. MS says he complied, got into the Yukon and followed them.

From Billandrew's timeline: (A huge thank you for this!)

9:05 pm pick-up truck passes Super Sucker going north on Trinity Rd.

9:15 pm pick-up truck passes Super Sucker going south on Trinity Rd.

9:20 pm pick-up truck, followed by Yukon, passes Super Sucker going north on Trinity Road.

MOO

And between 9:15 and 9:30, the witness sees them driving out of the laneway of the field.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

And maybe TB took it out for a quick up the road spin and back without SB knowing. IMO

I doubt that, he was tucking his little girl into bed just before MS and DM showed up.

 

[brightii]

Why does it make any difference who told who what about the toolbox? Why is everyone so focused on this? Where is this going?

IMO, the reason it is an important detail in the case is that if DM used others (AM, MH and/or CN) to get the toolbox to MS with a gun or guns inside of it, and if the contents of said toolbox were unbeknownst to MS as he suggests, it may sway the jury to believe MS's story that DM tried to frame him for the murder.

If the truth is that MS wanted the toolbox and asked AM specifically for it, and if MS knew that gun(s) were inside, his story about being framed would not hold up. Although because others too have all testified that the toolbox was typically used to hold recreational drugs, MS may have assumed that these drugs were inside the toolbox.

What is bothersome to me is that the toolbox was referred to in texts as "the other thing" which suggests to me that they all knew there was a gun (or guns) in that toolbox or why not simply call it the toolbox? They didn't mind referring to the weed in a bag or drugs in a backpack, so why not not call the toolbox a toolbox if it was normally thought of as a receptacle to store party drugs and none of those dealing with the delivery or receipt of the toolbox thought otherwise?

All MOO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

They were still walking up the driveway at 9:05pm. Maybe the 9:05 truck was not TB'S.

ETA: according to time line, Bates phone called TB at 9:05 pm, so that 9:05 truck couldn't be TB'S truck.

Depending on how close they estimated the time to be off on the Super Sucker video. IIRC, the clock had already been reset before LE got there.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Do you have a link to your quote about what you said?

I got this from Adam Carter and to me it jives with the video.

"Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
I sort of took the hint he wanted me to get into the other vehicle. I got out, Dell pulled a U-Turn, and I got into the Yukon." Bosma


Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
"When he pulled up there, he looked over at me and said why don't you guys come and follow us," #TimBosma #Bosma

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
Millard hit the brakes, and said his friend couldn't find Tim Hortons and he was around the corner. Then they drove around the corner #Bosma"

I am sorry that I didn't use the reporters' tweets when outlining MS's testimony ... I was paraphrasing in my original post, from what I gathered from following all the reporters' tweets.

MOO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

The earlier video evidence of a truck was not part of the Crown's case. It doesn't fit their timeline, or apparently MS's timeline either. This is a rural area and it could have been another truck or trucks captured at 9:05 and 9:15. Connecting the earlier sightings with the case first came up in cross and will likely be raised again this week.

Ah, now I understand. Thank you.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Do you have a link to your quote about what you said?

I got this from Adam Carter and to me it jives with the video.

"Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
I sort of took the hint he wanted me to get into the other vehicle. I got out, Dell pulled a U-Turn, and I got into the Yukon." Bosma


Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
"When he pulled up there, he looked over at me and said why don't you guys come and follow us," #TimBosma #Bosma

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC May 11
Millard hit the brakes, and said his friend couldn't find Tim Hortons and he was around the corner. Then they drove around the corner #Bosma"

Billandrew's timeline:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml#

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

That depends on which Super Sucker videos -- the ones in the Crown's evidence presentation, via Plaxton's report, or the ones introduced by Pillay in his cross examination of the same witness?

The Crown's evidence is consistent with MS's testimony. It reports the SuperSucker video capturing the Yukon going south on Trinity at 8:46 pm. We know from the phone records that the two men appeared in the Bosma's driveway approximately 9:05 pm. The Crown evidence from the Super Sucker video then showed the truck, followed by the Yukon, going north on Trinity at 9:20.

This would allow for the diversion to the Yukon, etc. as described by MS.

Plaxton did not mention, in his report that was part of the Crown evidence, that the same truck (in his opinion) was also captured going north on Trinity at 9:05 pm (that is, immediately after leaving TB's house, without any diversion, if it's the same truck) and returning at 9:15, which was evidence brought to the attention of the jury (and us) by Ravin Pillay. Plaxton agreed this was probably the same truck. If it is, it suggests that the two guys, plus Tim, were all in the truck as it went north on the "test drive" and then within a ten-minute frame, turned around and came back down south on Trinity, both times without any sign of the Yukon following.

My bet is that Pillay will try to raise doubt about MS's story by calling attention to these videos again, suggesting that indeed MS was with DM and TB for about 10 minutes before they went to pick up the Yukon. That allowed time for the shooting. The truck and the Yukon were then captured one more time by the Super Sucker video about 5 minutes later, going north again, so if the shooting had already occurred, they didn't spend much time in the field dealing with it, they booted it out of there (this timeline jives with the neighbour Bullman's testimony, too)..

A weak link here is that it cannot be established for certain that the truck is TB's truck, although it is consistent with being TB's truck (this is true in the other videos too, and applies to the Yukon as well -- the ID is tentative, but it's pretty persuasive, in context).

If the videos that Pillay called attention to are of TB's truck, then MS's story, as it stands, cannot be true. Pillay will probably make a determined attempt to use this discrepancy (among other things) to discredit MS's story.

ETA: in light of CJ Princess's point, the times on the video are corrected ones and close approximations, but the 9:05 (as per Plaxton) northbound truck could certainly have been TB's (as Plaxton affirmed).

A wonderful explanation, and now I understand ... Thank you very much for taking the time!

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I am sorry that I didn't use the reporters' tweets when outlining MS's testimony ... I was paraphrasing in my original post, from what I gathered from following all the reporters' tweets.

MOO

It's wasn't clear to me when DM pulled the u-turn (as per posts here I was getting confused) From the tweet order, it sounds like the U-turn was done on Book rd. So this U-turn didn't happen at Super Sucker unless Super Sucker is before Book rd.

Adam Carter's tweets.
1. DM hit the brakes and said "his friend couldn't find Tim Horton's and he's just around the corner". Then then drove around the corner.
I believe this happened as they pulled out of TB'S driveway and before Book rd.

2. When he pulled up there, he looked at MS and said "why don't you guys just come and follow us"

3. I sort of took the hint he wanted me to get into the other vehicle. I got out, Dell pulled a U-Turn, and I got into the Yukon."


ETA: so if Bullman is correct and both Yukon and TB truck DID pull out of the field, MS'S is not truthful on this part either (Unless MS considers that a U-turn) The Yukon had pretty dark tinted windows. So TB probably wouldn't have seen anyone anyways. But something just seems a bit off here as well. Unless Bullman thought both trucks pulled out of the field but it was just the Yukon and TB truck just did the U-turn.

 

[brightii]

Perhaps he had a fear of being shot if he took off in the boss's Yukon with the boss's dog.

MS was following behind DM and I think had he wanted to MS could have made a quick detour and headed to a police station - or he could have called the police and lead them to DM - or he could have driven somewhere else to escape - rather than follow DM to the farm where MS likely knew they were headed and likely knew why - to get the Eliminator as it was no secret DM had it there at the farm. Why if DM was behaving like a lunatic, as per MS, would MS have trusted himself to be in DM's presence in a dark and isolated location, as DM was armed with a gun, had just used it to kill a defenceless TB, and had a means of disposing of dead bodies?

If things happened as MS says, after TB was murdered by DM and after MS went along with DM to the farm and then to the hangar because he was terrified of DM and in shock, it doesn't explain why he continued to help DM destroy evidence later in the week, and nor does it explain why even after DM was in custody MS didn't go to police. I think MS had multiple opportunities to escape from DM and to go to the police and MS didn't take any of them. I cannot understand why he would not have wanted immediate protection from DM unless he is lying about what happened. It makes no sense to me.

All MOO.

 

[hellkat2]

But it is what he said and I don't believe it. What I see is someone who stayed on course for the robbery and killings, and then burning/clean up. I reject the creditability of him. I am just looking at what he did do but could of while saying he was threatenes, scared and confused.

MS playing the victim card. Just like Karla H did with Paul B. They both flip flopping.