Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Claroon]

DM's perfect plan went off the rails- that's what happened. Kudos to HPS for getting the blow torch on DM's rear end so quickly. Thanks to their quick action, TB's murderers will be convicted. MOO

Indeed, lots of important details covered quickly! :tyou:

 

[billandrew]

Disgusting and disappointing isn't it? Billandrew you were in the courtroom that day, can you tell us what DM and MS demeanor was like when MH was testifying?

I personally didn't notice anything unusual, but I wasn't watching them closely either. I noted that in the few times I've been there, DM talks to his lawyers a lot more than MS. This happens during transition periods, such as returning from a recess or lunch break.

On Thursday, I saw DM having a more-lengthy-than-usual conversation with Pillay. I think it was after the lunch break before the trial resumed. DM appeared to be doing most of the talking, like he was explaining something or giving instructions to Pillay. If my eyes didn't fail me I'd say he was smiling or laughing while he was talking. No clue what it was about.

 

[Abitcountry]

fftobed:I am sooo tired. Goodnight all......

 

[mimimic]

Here's an interesting set of tweets from Susan Clairmont about the Smich surveillance testimony (Stuart Oxley, 2016-02-24). I have parsed it a bit:

• Sgt. [Oxley] testified earlier in trial related to arrest of Millard. Now testifying about Smich arrest. With @HamiltonPolice surveillance unit.
• Had Smich under surveillance for 5 or 6 day starting May 14 to 18, then again May 21. Arrest May 22.
• May 7, 9:24 pm got call from SS Matt Kavanagh, homicide unit. Asked to put Smich under surveillance.
• Looking at him in connection to #Bosma disappearance. 7:03 am May 8 started surveillance on target. Continued to 9:55 pm.
• Vice and drugs took over for the night.
• Sorry. Surveillance began May 14. Wrong in earlier tweet.

Were the tweets referencing May 7 and 8 a slip on Clairmont's behalf, or the officer's?

Something else I find peculiar: the one tweet says "Looking at him in connection to #Bosma disappearance". But, by May13/14 they had found what they assumed to be TB's remains in the incinerator, so was it still necessary to reference a "disappearance", as opposed to a murder? This may be a stretch, but perhaps the police had identified Smich as a suspect much earlier than we know about.

:thinking:< this guy but more stare and still head a bit more shock and awe

 

[mimimic]

Just noticed in the phone pings that just a few hours before dropping off the toolbox to MH, Dellen was in text communication with Smich. Maybe he already told him what he was doing and that the heat was on. These two were doing everything together in this crime right up until the evening of the 9th. I'm not convinced DM was in control of Smich and trying to frame him. I believe neither told anything to the police about the other and remained silent. I think it is just the jobs of the defence to create reasonable doubt by playing one against the other and they seem to be giving us all some reason to speculate on different possible scenarios. Even doubting Smich..but I'm not buying that he was controlled by DM. He is just as evil.

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...GFPoyS8wM9CJAGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit#slide=id.p106

exhibit 49
DM received text from Smich 1:23 AM I'm sure we will see these texts
still had his own phone..then by the 10th he had gotten rid of his phones.

I agree no framing their mouth were shut- they were far too busy scrambling in shock to consider it yet. now although: it seems they are pushing each other down by trying to stay above the water so as not to drown on their own.

 

[Orderly]

I think what Orderly may be trying to argue is your logic.

You've created a story, and the only way you are able to support it with evidence is to say, "there's no proof it didn't happen". All of your arguments are to explain why there is no evidence to support your theory, instead of actually drawing on evidence to support it.

In debating, that's called an "argument of ignorance"...no one knows, everyone is ignorant, there's no proof...so it could be true. That argument is considered flawed logic.

That is exactly what I was trying to do, thank you!

 

[Sillybilly]

Okay folks ... a theory based on "wild speculation" was posted and almost 150 posts later we are still discussing it? Anything is possible, but is it probable? Fine to state a theory, but when it is not supported by something, anything from the evidence at trial, let it go.

Please move on.

 

[Claroon]

This case is truly addictive. Before leaving for bed, I want to put this out there. All speculation.

Was pondering the "white paint" thing. I liked abitcountry's idea of the white truck connection, but there was nothing else to go on.
I went on a "mission" today (lol) past the hangar and up to Victoria St. (I had an errand to run) On Victoria I saw the 2 propane filling stations, 8 min. from the hangar, then I saw a major bbq sales place. I'd thought they might have made a propane run in that 30 min Yukon trip from the hangar. One of the locations closes at midnight, the other I don't know, so getting to that one in time for an attendant was not happening. Their MO is to steal not buy, so maybe they stole propane tanks from any number of locations. I was doing an internet search but a theft that small probably wouldn't make the news.

I got thinking about the paint again, trying to recall what I might paint with white spray paint, and the two things I came up with were my outdoor light post (Naaa) or my bbq tank which may get rusty. So I was thinking, maybe they did steal tanks so they'd have enough for the incinerator. Then maybe DM painted over the logos should anyone report stolen items. After all, their MO seemed to be to remove identifying features as quickly as possible. So I went to the photos of the taped off Riverside property and think there are vague circle patterns on the driveway. Could DM have painted them on the grass and placed them on the driveway to dry? IMO Then run the hose to wash away the paint? Here's the photo I refer to:

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I don't think it was DM charged with a gun, It was him purchasing a gun from MWJ

looks like he may have bought this gun 2010 or 2011 even...so he has been involved with this group awhile and they don't look like people to mess with. Drugs, weapons, trafficking.

&#8220;I think you might think that I&#8217;m a little more involved in this than I am,&#8221; Odlum said. &#8220;We&#8217;re going years back, this is from two or three years ago.&#8221;

http://toronto1820.rssing.com/chan-24923084/all_p102.html
http://www.citynews.ca/2014/04/12/e...der-dead-before-even-reported-missing-report/

bbm and snipped...sorry don't remember all the short hands for these.

&#8220;I think you might think that I&#8217;m a little more involved in this than I am,&#8221; Odlum said. &#8220;We&#8217;re going years back, this is from two or three years ago.&#8221;
Police allege all three trafficked a gun between June 1, 2012, and July 30, 2012

According to the information filed in court, Odlum is co-accused with two others: Matthew Ward-Jackson, 26, of Mississauga, and Matthew Jackson Wawrykiewicz, 28, of Aurora.

All three names appear on a newly filed list of people Millard and Smich have been ordered by the court not to have any contact with.
So if these 3 guys were placed on the no contact order, would that mean we should expect to hear from them as well in TB'S case?

One of the accused, Mathew Odlum, 27, told the newspaper his case is connected, and as he understands the police allege he illegally sold a gun to Millard.
I know the article is headlined as LB's case but talks about TB and WM's as well. So what my understanding is..one gun for all 3 murders? Sorry, I'm a bit confused...as usual lol

Also, IMO this kind of proves that it was DM's gun. MS could have been talking smack to Daly to be cool, while showing him his "exhibit portrait" that we have all seen. We haven't had any dates linked to MS or DM's gun posing pics (or have we??). Would be interested to know when these were taken. Maybe the pics were taken the same day of the gun purchase. IMO, only one gun but maybe MM can clear that up for us...since Daly confused the hell outta most of us!

MOO

 

[CJPRINCESS]

This case is truly addictive. Before leaving for bed, I want to put this out there. All speculation.

Was pondering the "white paint" thing. I liked abitcountry's idea of the white truck connection, but there was nothing else to go on.
I went on a "mission" today (lol) past the hangar and up to Victoria St. (I had an errand to run) On Victoria I saw the 2 propane filling stations, 8 min. from the hangar, then I saw a major bbq sales place. I'd thought they might have made a propane run in that 30 min Yukon trip from the hangar. One of the locations closes at midnight, the other I don't know, so getting to that one in time for an attendant was not happening. Their MO is to steal not buy, so maybe they stole propane tanks from any number of locations. I was doing an internet search but a theft that small probably wouldn't make the news.

I got thinking about the paint again, trying to recall what I might paint with white spray paint, and the two things I came up with were my outdoor light post (Naaa) or my bbq tank which may get rusty. So I was thinking, maybe they did steal tanks so they'd have enough for the incinerator. Then maybe DM painted over the logos should anyone report stolen items. After all, their MO seemed to be to remove identifying features as quickly as possible. So I went to the photos of the taped off Riverside property and think there are vague circle patterns on the driveway. Could DM have painted them on the grass and placed them on the driveway to dry? IMO Then run the hose to wash away the paint? Here's the photo I refer to:

View attachment 91734

Claroon, while I could agree with bbq tank thefts, as we ourselves have an adaptor that fills the small green tanks from the large white tanks. There just didn't seem to be any time where they muddled around the incinerator long enough, according to the hanger videos we have seen (the incinerator won't run on bbq tanks as SS testified to) Besides, I would think there would be security cameras pointed right at those tanks? MOO

What I don't agree with is...One, I have no clue what white circles you see? If it were satin white spray paint, it would be bright white. Second, no need to spray paint the tanks when you could just rip the stickers off. I have 9 bbq tanks and not one has permanent logos on them...but maybe some do, just none that I've personally seen.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I brought up the white paint last night before I went to sleep because I'm still skeptical that DM was planning to paint TB's truck with it. I'm not ruling it out, but if it was true it makes no sense why DM would want the boxes of paint loaded into the Yukon. If he was planning to paint TB's truck somewhere besides the hangar (say, at the farm), why not load the paint into the 5th wheel trailer, the red Dodge Ram, or even into TB's truck itself? Having the paint in the Yukon is pointless because he'd have to use the red Dodge Ram to tow TB's truck anywhere.

The white van is a good thought, but my mind can't make any sensible explanation of it. The truth might actually be something trivial, like he was transporting the paint to Villada for some renovation job he was doing at the time. The other questions I have are:

• How many cans of paint were in a box?
• Why did DM keep a stock of boxes of white spray paint?

The answers to these questions might provide some better insight as to what DM was going to use the paint for.

bbm
Next question: Did DM keep a stock of boxes of every thinkable other colour of spray paint?

SATIN WHITE Spray Paint Auto Diy Purpose
High Resistant To Cracks (Due To Surface Tension)
Suitable For All Metal, Plastic, Wood And Ceramic Surfaces.
Petrol And Grease Resistant
Toluene Free (A Common Type Of Solvent Found In Paints But Is Generally Considered As Toxic)

 

[Sphinx]

IMO, TB was shot somewhere north of Super Sucker, quite possibly along Wilson St W. I have lived in this area my whole life and can attest that on a Monday evening after 9pm in 2013 there may have been no other vehicles approaching for a good distance in either direction.

Wilson St. is also very straight so you can see if anyone's coming from a long distance away. There is a lot of empty land and farm land around there, with lots of places like this or this where it would be easy to pull over and shoot somebody without being seen or heard.

IMO there is still a bullet and possibly some shattered glass lying in the dirt somewhere within a 5 minute drive of Supersucker.

Thank you for the pictures of Wilson Street. Your theory makes more sense than TB being shot in the hay field, as I had originally thought. The fact that the timing fits, and Wilson provides much privacy as well as the ability to see for long distances in all directions. At night this would be a perfect place for a murder. We know DM liked to use look-outs on "missions", but in the interests of secrecy, I think he wanted as few witnesses to the murder as possible, so he just used MS, who had already helped in the murder of LB. This modus operandi also proves premeditation to murder, not just steal a truck.

IMO

 

[deugirtni]

About the spray paint:

From A Carter's Live Blog (BBM):

12:51 PM
Now seeing texts from Thursday, May 9. Millard called Schlatman's phone twice that afternoon. Schlatman says he missed both calls. Millard asks him to "throw two boxes of satin white spray paint in the Yukon plz." Millard wasn't at the hangar at that time.
12:52 PM
Schlatman says he didn't know why he wanted that spray paint.
12:52 PM
Each box would have six cans in it, he says.
12:53 PM
"I would've had it for touching up trailers," Schlatman says. He kept cases of black and white paint. "I'm not sure why he asked for it."

Is it possible that there may still be testimony to come in regard to these things which may have been found at DM's properties, such as the hoses at Riverside where there were police markers; the bathroom at Riverside where Mr. V was asked if DM and CN had gone into the bathroom when he had let them into the unit; and the property at Maplegate where previous testimony had made note that Mr. V had painted the interior of the home only a couple of weeks before the 'event';?

Would be interesting if Maplegate had been spraypainted white in some area, after Mr. V saying he had painted it?

 

[deugirtni]

I personally didn't notice anything unusual, but I wasn't watching them closely either. I noted that in the few times I've been there, DM talks to his lawyers a lot more than MS. This happens during transition periods, such as returning from a recess or lunch break.

On Thursday, I saw DM having a more-lengthy-than-usual conversation with Pillay. I think it was after the lunch break before the trial resumed. DM appeared to be doing most of the talking, like he was explaining something or giving instructions to Pillay. If my eyes didn't fail me I'd say he was smiling or laughing while he was talking. No clue what it was about.

I have noticed this too in regard to DM speaking to his lawyers in between (every) sessions. My take on it is that DM believes he is all important, much too important to just be *there*, he must be an active and visible part of the legal team; he demands attention, conversation, feedback, wants to get his two cents in, all.the.time. Of course MS also speaks to his lawyer in between some sessions, I'm sure there are times when something may need to be mentioned, but with DM I get more of a feeling similar to say, a needy child constantly trying to keep his parent in his service/busy with him. He often smiles and laughs while talking with his lawyer. When DM stands up to acknowledge the entry of the judge or jury, he stands with a confident pose, holding his hands behind his back. Unfortunately, although I'm sure he wishes to portray confidence, he seems to instead portray cockiness. moo

 

[Inspector_North]

This morning I took exhibit #37 and put it into a chronological ordered list format. Much easier to follow cell activity from the 3rd to the 10th. I don't have any online document storage, and wonder how I can share it on this site if anyone is interested? Currently it is in PDF format.

Update: Solution provided to me by billandrew. thanks

 

[Ontario Mom]

Reading the tweets initially I felt very sorry for MH as I felt he had come clean and had his trust betrayed by DM, and he was grief stricken by that.

Listening to AP's take on SoundCloud though https://soundcloud.com/am900chml/ma...he-ditched-key-evidence-in-the-tim-bosma-case it seems to me that instead MH did everything he absolutely could to cover for DM and he wept because he was forced to testify against DM or face criminal charges of his own in relation to the case.

ABro pointed out:

Ann Brocklehurst &#8207;@AnnB03 Apr 8
For the record, Tom Dungey accused Matt Hagerman of still not coming clean in his 4th, final police intvu: MH failed to mention Bobcat heist


Some things just do not come across. I didn't realize how obstructive MH truly was.

I don't know how I missed this, but thanks for that link. AP's perspective gave me a little more to think about.

This whole mess about MH and the gun, lack of gun, drugs, toolbox, etc. is rather confusing and I think that was intentional on TD's part. His job is to defend his client and create as much doubt in the minds of the jury about the credibility of any witness that has anything potentially negative to say. Where it gets confusing for me is that TD is MS defense lawyer, and MH didn't really have anything incriminating to say about MS (other than he seemed sketchy, but I think everyone thinks that about him). Yet, TD ripped into MH like nobodies business to make the jury see how unreliable and unbelievable he is and chastised him for not doing "the right thing". Had MH actually done the right thing, called police and said "look, DM gave this to me, and I'm supposed to give it to MS and I don't want anything to do with it!" MS would have been arrested a heck of a lot sooner than he was, wouldn't he?? There's no way TD actually wanted MH to do the right thing but he made it sound like he did, to make this guy seem more like a creep for not doing it.

 

[MsSherlock]

About the spray paint:

From A Carter's Live Blog (BBM):



Is it possible that there may still be testimony to come in regard to these things which may have been found at DM's properties, such as the hoses at Riverside where there were police markers; the bathroom at Riverside where Mr. V was asked if DM and CN had gone into the bathroom when he had let them into the unit; and the property at Maplegate where previous testimony had made note that Mr. V had painted the interior of the home only a couple of weeks before the 'event';?

Would be interesting if Maplegate had been spraypainted white in some area, after Mr. V saying he had painted it?

SS stated that he had the white and black paint on hand to touch up the trailers- that would indicate that it would have been perfect match for anything painted white on the trailer TB's truck was in. I've attached the Baja and LE pic. The LE pic clearly show crisp white wheel well details and complete crisp white on the front of the trailer. The Baja pic appears to show the front black, flanked with white strips on the outer side of the supports. Remembering that this is DM, and as ridiculous as it sounds, IMHO, he was trying to disguise his behemoth of a trailer with a few splashes of white. It's the fact that he wanted 2 boxes. I think DM had an understanding of search warrants- IMO, you don't take up thieving of large equipment as a past time without figuring out what LE needs to search your premises. If the trailer that was in MB's driveway wasn't an exact match for the one that DM owned and no ability to read the plate, I honestly believe that DM thought LE couldn't get a search warrant on it. MOO

 

[mimimic]

SS stated that he had the white and black paint on hand to touch up the trailers- that would indicate that it would have been perfect match for anything painted white on the trailer TB's truck was in. I've attached the Baja and LE pic. The LE pic clearly show crisp white wheel well details and complete crisp white on the front of the trailer. The Baja pic appears to show the front black, flanked with white strips on the outer side of the supports. Remembering that this is DM, and as ridiculous as it sounds, IMHO, he was trying to disguise his behemoth of a trailer with a few splashes of white. It's the fact that he wanted 2 boxes. I think DM had an understanding of search warrants- IMO, you don't take up thieving of large equipment as a past time without figuring out what LE needs to search your premises. If the trailer that was in MB's driveway wasn't an exact match for the one that DM owned and no ability to read the plate, I honestly believe that DM thought LE couldn't get a search warrant on it. MOO

Oh dear - i am not able to see any difference except the yellow reflective on the LE pic instead of red ones in Baja pic.

 

[MsSherlock]

I don't know how I missed this, but thanks for that link. AP's perspective gave me a little more to think about.

This whole mess about MH and the gun, lack of gun, drugs, toolbox, etc. is rather confusing and I think that was intentional on TD's part. His job is to defend his client and create as much doubt in the minds of the jury about the credibility of any witness that has anything potentially negative to say. Where it gets confusing for me is that TD is MS defense lawyer, and MH didn't really have anything incriminating to say about MS (other than he seemed sketchy, but I think everyone thinks that about him). Yet, TD ripped into MH like nobodies business to make the jury see how unreliable and unbelievable he is and chastised him for not doing "the right thing". Had MH actually done the right thing, called police and said "look, DM gave this to me, and I'm supposed to give it to MS and I don't want anything to do with it!" MS would have been arrested a heck of a lot sooner than he was, wouldn't he?? There's no way TD actually wanted MH to do the right thing but he made it sound like he did, to make this guy seem more like a creep for not doing it.

Yep- if only DM's so called "good friends" had made the drop at LE rather than the stairwell. If only they didn't lie numerous times. It should be interesting to see if LE needed several statements with AM as well? IMO, the rest of the gang are not living in a vacuum and are getting bits and pieces of info from MSM. IMO, after HM's cross, the rest may turn into better witnesses simply by MSM osmosis. I'm hoping that they'll see that in an effort to save their butts, both DM and MS have supplied their lawyers with "all the dirt" on them. What little tidbits are they going to be confronted with? The best thing that all of them can do is tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and forget about any allegiance to DM or MS. It's a psychopath and his little friend who incinerated a man on trial. MOO

 

[MsSherlock]

Oh dear - i am not able to see any difference except the yellow reflective on the LE pic instead of red ones in Baja pic.

Here's a better pic of the wheel well area.