Break in @ Tony L's Apartment

[JBean]

Be sure to debate the points and the posts.Do not attack or reference posters directly or indirectly.
thank you.

 

[chefmom]

Self-explanatory, CA's observations about KC ----

July 3 Cindy posted this on MySpace:
Thursday, July 03, 2008: "My caylee is missing She came into my life unexpectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?"

Re-reading this post of CA's after all that has come to light since the beginning really makes a difference. CA talks about all of the lies and betrayal. Hmmmm. I wonder how she will contrast these statements with her KC is the 'mother-of-the-year' statement? Knowing how often and how much she stole from her own parents and other family members, it is not a stretch at all, IMO, to think that she is the one who stole from TL and his roommates. In all that we know of her stealing from AH, and the whole sleepwalking thing, I'd say she should be the number 1 suspect.

 

[seagull65]

Her motive was self centered narcissism. She wanted a life without any hindrances of a child. She "thought" her lies would work with LE just as they had all her life with her evil parents.

Her only hope now is to claim George did it as he has been caught in his lie about seeing Caylee on the 16th when she was already dead.

Turbo, I can't buy that theory so far, as popular as it is, due to lack of evidence, but I'll have to leave it there in order to return to topic. I know your views on the subject.

 

[cyberborg]

Re-reading this post of CA's after all that has come to light since the beginning really makes a difference. CA talks about all of the lies and betrayal. Hmmmm. I wonder how she will contrast these statements with her KC is the 'mother-of-the-year' statement? Knowing how often and how much she stole from her own parents and other family members, it is not a stretch at all, IMO, to think that she is the one who stole from TL and his roommates. In all that we know of her stealing from AH, and the whole sleepwalking thing, I'd say she should be the number 1 suspect.

Yes, going back and re-reading CA's MySpace post resonates big time with me. Although I think at this point CA just thinks KC is withholding Caylee from her out of a dispute, spite. CA does paint a picture of KC from her own Mother. It goes to state of mind and what KC had done and was capable of doing.

 

[LisaNY]

Lisa, I was responding to many people who repeatedly post that KC "got TL to break into her father's shed" as if that is a fact. There is no evidence that that is what happened. It is completely reasonable to say that TL, like anyone else, is responsible for his own actions. He is in fact responsible under the law. He was a 21 year old man at the time, not a child. She couldn't make him do it. The fact that he by his own admission did break into the shed is proof enough that he reached a decision to do it, the action shows the decision.
As far as whose original idea or why, I have no idea. He had many available girls at the club as seen in the club pictures, so it's not like KC's sex appeal would somehow make him commit a break-in against his will, you know. I know it sounds ridiculous, I was only responding to this frequently stated theory that she somehow "made him do it" because of others frequently stating this as if it were a fact.

I think a man breaking your own car window at your request is different from a person breaking into a third party's shed for gas cans rather than simply getting gas in a legal and normal way.

My personal opinion is that a young man who would actually break into a third party's shed for gas cans instead of getting gas in any respectable, normal, legal way shows very poor judgment and impulse control and if I were the grandparents I would be frightened of my granddaughter being around that person. But now that's MOO.

Bold by me:
You are leaving out the part where he broke the lock on the shed in order for KC to get gas for HER car. It was her car that ran out of gas, and it was her house, not a third party. SHE lived there, not rented just a room, SHE lived there. That was her LEGAL address (as stated on her d/l and all the arrest warrants) KC walked him through her garage that she opened, to her backyard to meet up with a locked shed. (GA did state that he recently put the lock on there due to neighborhood breakins ... wonder who else on that block frequently runs out of gas) This makes a difference. As far as grandparents not trusting their granddaughter around someone like TL due to poor judment & impulse control, apparently TL himself did not feel that it was GOOD judgment to have a 2 yr old around a bunch of partying 21 yrs olds. I would think that if the grandparents had any worries, they should have been worrying about their granddaughter being with her very own mother, and a Nanny that was unknown to them.



all jmho

 

[MarleneM]

[/B]

Bold by me:
You are leaving out the part where he broke the lock on the shed in order for KC to get gas for HER car. It was her car that ran out of gas, and it was her house, not a third party. SHE lived there, not rented just a room, SHE lived there. That was her LEGAL address (as stated on her d/l and all the arrest warrants) KC walked him through her garage that she opened, to her backyard to meet up with a locked shed. (GA did state that he recently put the lock on there due to neighborhood breakins ... wonder who else on that block frequently runs out of gas) This makes a difference. As far as grandparents not trusting their granddaughter around someone like TL due to poor judment & impulse control, apparently TL himself did not feel that it was GOOD judgment to have a 2 yr old around a bunch of partying 21 yrs olds. I would think that if the grandparents had any worries, they should have been worrying about their granddaughter being with her very own mother, and a Nanny that was unknown to them.



all jmho

I agree. TL was also perceptive enough to not trust KC with an open invitation to his apartment while he was out of town. She'd have to have made other arrangements to get into his place if that was her goal.

 

[~ Amy ~]

Lisa, I was responding to many people who repeatedly post that KC "got TL to break into her father's shed" as if that is a fact. There is no evidence that that is what happened. It is completely reasonable to say that TL, like anyone else, is responsible for his own actions. He is in fact responsible under the law. He was a 21 year old man at the time, not a child. She couldn't make him do it. The fact that he by his own admission did break into the shed is proof enough that he reached a decision to do it, the action shows the decision.
As far as whose original idea or why, I have no idea. He had many available girls at the club as seen in the club pictures, so it's not like KC's sex appeal would somehow make him commit a break-in against his will, you know. I know it sounds ridiculous, I was only responding to this frequently stated theory that she somehow "made him do it" because of others frequently stating this as if it were a fact.

I think a man breaking your own car window at your request is different from a person breaking into a third party's shed for gas cans rather than simply getting gas in a legal and normal way.

My personal opinion is that a young man who would actually break into a third party's shed for gas cans instead of getting gas in any respectable, normal, legal way shows very poor judgment and impulse control and if I were the grandparents I would be frightened of my granddaughter being around that person. But now that's MOO.

The grandparents don't seem to be frightened by anyone or anything. Heck they never met the nanny or even looked into the background of the so-called zanny the nanny , so I don't see how breaking a lock on a shed could even be compared to allowing ur grandbaby to stay with a person no one HAS NEVER knew , other than KC. That shed is minor compared to not knowing who your grandchild stays with.

Beisdes, who is to say KC didnt tell TonE that she called her dad for help and he said he lost the key to the shed and just have her b/f break the lock and he would replace it with another one. I am sure there could of been numerous lies that were told. Or the famous lie that the place was soon to be hers and she would have to replace all the locks anyways. Who knows.

I also don't think TonE was leading KC on by no means. If i remember right she started their whole relationship off on a lie and continued lying til the end. I don't blame him either for not wanting a small child around while others gather to party ,in fact I applaud him...it seems he has more maturity in his pinky than KC ever dared to have. A party is no place for a small child to be at. If KC had any morals at all , she would know that.

 

[Ripley007]

Her motive was self centered narcissism. She wanted a life without any hindrances of a child. She "thought" her lies would work with LE just as they had all her life with her evil parents.

Her only hope now is to claim George did it as he has been caught in his lie about seeing Caylee on the 16th when she was already dead.

Bold by me.
Turbo! Kudos for a fascinating theory!!! This is an angle I hadn't thought of before. Will have to mull this one over. I already bought into a more obscure theory of KC originally planning a CA&GA murder/suicide, so this isn't much more of a stretch. Question to you personally, can you make a connection with any of the items found at the crime scene linking back to (a scapegoat) George?

 

[DotsEyes]

Oh come on! GA didn't hurt Caylee, neither did CA.

Fusion looks like a crabolla place when the pole dancers are KC and some other bimbo. The only people there, worked there. I am not so sure it didn't close because it was losing money.

Tag. KC is it.

 

[Ripley007]

DotsEyes-Assuming you were addressing me about GA...Think you misunderstood. OF COURSE I don't believe GA is "the real killer", but the previous post about her FRAMING GA...that's what I was interested in and talking about. So my question was, if she wanted to frame GA, what eviedence did she leave at the crime to accomplish this? OK?

 

[Phumi]

Who says? I mean, evidence wise, not popular theory wise.



Who says it's the truth? Besides TL.



LE took statements from some of the people who'd been around Caylee and Casey, examined some of their phone records to a limited extent, and searched the back of TL's car (without cadaver dogs) for hair, blood, etc. That's it. Of course Tony cooperated with police, wore a wire to tape the young mother's brother (whatever, why not) and allowed his phone to be tapped. None of this clears him in any way or proves he was not involved in a crime against Caylee, though I also have never accused him of that (I haven't accused anyone yet.)



We don't know why Casey gave the strange, cryptic statements, or what her reasons were. She certainly could have been involved in what happened to Caylee, but not necessarily. Many reasons are possible besides being the murderer. However, her refusal or inability to cooperate with police could certainly get her convicted.

Regarding "comparing the shed incident and eating chicken with not reporting your toddler missing", I did not make that comparison. :waitasec: (I do get your point though. I just don't take it for granted that she's the one who harmed Caylee, though. I'm still not sure on that point, so I don't interpret everything else in quite the same way that some people do.)

Clearly we could go back and forth on these issues all day. If Casey made a statement tomorrow that she killed Caylee, someone could say "How do we KNOW that's true? She's lied before." The legal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond a shadow of a doubt." Could aliens have come and taken Caylee? Well, yes. We can not completely discount that theory because we don't know if there are aliens or not; But is it really reasonable to think that's what happened? It is just NOT true that KC had no history of neglecting Caylee (her friends have talked about KC taking her to adult parties and leaving her unattended while "in another room" with TonE --balcony incident). If you argue that her friends might be lying about that, how can you accept when they say something exculpatory as "proof" (that they never witnessed physical abuse, and had a "loving, normal attachment to Caylee," for instance)? If your point is that we will never know 100% that KC did it because the world has pedophiles and secret agents and drug cartels and evil nannies and possibly aliens, then I concede. You often post that "It has not been proven in court." When KC is convicted ,(yes, I said WHEN not if) will you accept her guilt or still insist it wasn't "proven?" Can you give an example of what would prove to you that KC is guilty?
If a parent hears a loud noise, goes upstairs to find his/her child holding a hammer and there is a hole in the wall, it is reasonable to think the child has just put a hole in the wall with that hammer. Do we know it 100%? Nope! The evil neighbor child could have done it and escaped out the window before the parent got there. Look at the polls on this forum and you will see that the overwhelming majority draw the reasonable conclusion that KC is standing in front of the hole in the wall with a hammer in her hand.

 

[surfinsue1029]

But..if KC was telling TL the same BS that she was telling other friends, then this shed was for all intent and purposes HERS. The house was going to be hers in a matter of days, according to one of her many half-truths. (AKA lies in the real world) I can't imagine that TL even knew that there was a shed with gas cans, so it stands to reason that she asked him to break the lock on HER shed. JMHO

I totally agree! TL was just another one of KC's victims. I feel for him and everyone else involved. Especially Caylee!

 

[magic-cat]

Casey was not "just a young girl". That is, perhaps, what the defense would like for the jury to believe she was, but it is not what she was or what she is. She was a twenty-two year old woman who had been a mother for almost three years. She had graduated long ago and was of the legal drinking age. She was a full grown woman-there was no girl about it. She was woman enough to enjoy sex with a multitude of partners. She was woman enough to steal money from her grandparents account by using their bank routing number and account number. A young girl is a sixteen or a seventeen year old and that is not the person we are dealing with here. The person we are dealing with is WAY beyond a "young girl" and gone over into a "wanton woman" if you ask me. She was woman enough to curse her father and to steal over $4,000 from her parents at one time. She was woman enough to forge credit card applications and run up an extraordinary debt in her mother's name. She was woman enough to steal the entire contents of her friends bank account. She was woman enough plot and scheme and connive her way through life...she is woman enough to stand accused of her crimes and to be held accountable for them. Casey "just a young girl"? I don't think so. She is a twenty three year old woman and saying she is just a young girl is almost surreal.

 

[magic-cat]

And I do know why Casey gave "cryptic" statements. Because she is a pathological liar and she is a stranger to the truth. Her lies have been proven over and over. There is no room for any kind of questions about if she was a liar or not-she was and she is and she will continue to be. She lies to protect her own hide. If she told the truth they would put her to death.

 

[Leila]

Self-explanatory, CA's observations about KC ----

July 3 Cindy posted this on MySpace:
Thursday, July 03, 2008: "My caylee is missing She came into my life unexpectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?"

:clap::clap::clap::clap: This says it all! With all of the other evidence, I had almost forgotten about Cindy's MySpace message. Even Casey's own mother knows what Casey has done and is capable of doing.

 

[weasel]

<<people who repeatedly post that KC "got TL to break into her father's shed" as if that is a fact.>>

I believe I remember reading his interview with LE where he stated he was the one who broke the lock off the shed and helped Casey get the cans. I may be wrong, but I could've sworn he said it himself.

 

[Pondering Mind]

Clearly we could go back and forth on these issues all day. If Casey made a statement tomorrow that she killed Caylee, someone could say "How do we KNOW that's true? She's lied before." The legal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond a shadow of a doubt." Could aliens have come and taken Caylee? Well, yes. We can not completely discount that theory because we don't know if there are aliens or not; But is it really reasonable to think that's what happened? It is just NOT true that KC had no history of neglecting Caylee (her friends have talked about KC taking her to adult parties and leaving her unattended while "in another room" with TonE --balcony incident). If you argue that her friends might be lying about that, how can you accept when they say something exculpatory as "proof" (that they never witnessed physical abuse, and had a "loving, normal attachment to Caylee," for instance)? If your point is that we will never know 100% that KC did it because the world has pedophiles and secret agents and drug cartels and evil nannies and possibly aliens, then I concede. You often post that "It has not been proven in court." When KC is convicted ,(yes, I said WHEN not if) will you accept her guilt or still insist it wasn't "proven?" Can you give an example of what would prove to you that KC is guilty?
If a parent hears a loud noise, goes upstairs to find his/her child holding a hammer and there is a hole in the wall, it is reasonable to think the child has just put a hole in the wall with that hammer. Do we know it 100%? Nope! The evil neighbor child could have done it and escaped out the window before the parent got there. Look at the polls on this forum and you will see that the overwhelming majority draw the reasonable conclusion that KC is standing in front of the hole in the wall with a hammer in her hand.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! I so agree and only WISH that I could have said that as well as you!

 

[jjgram]

Self-explanatory, CA's observations about KC ----

July 3 Cindy posted this on MySpace:
Thursday, July 03, 2008: "My caylee is missing She came into my life unexpectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?"

Thanks for this...
sad... but TRUE ~ Reminder ! ! ! !

Sad.... for CA, her own daughter KC :liar: , now we KNOW...
probably for sure killed her own daughter...

SAD!
On the BRIGHTER SIDE:
Little Angel CAYLEE MARIE IS WITH GOD ! ! !
JMO
God Bless !
jjgram

 

[jjgram]

Clearly we could go back and forth on these issues all day. If Casey made a statement tomorrow that she killed Caylee, someone could say "How do we KNOW that's true? She's lied before." The legal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond a shadow of a doubt." Could aliens have come and taken Caylee? Well, yes. We can not completely discount that theory because we don't know if there are aliens or not; But is it really reasonable to think that's what happened? It is just NOT true that KC had no history of neglecting Caylee (her friends have talked about KC taking her to adult parties and leaving her unattended while "in another room" with TonE --balcony incident). If you argue that her friends might be lying about that, how can you accept when they say something exculpatory as "proof" (that they never witnessed physical abuse, and had a "loving, normal attachment to Caylee," for instance)? If your point is that we will never know 100% that KC did it because the world has pedophiles and secret agents and drug cartels and evil nannies and possibly aliens, then I concede. You often post that "It has not been proven in court." When KC is convicted ,(yes, I said WHEN not if) will you accept her guilt or still insist it wasn't "proven?" Can you give an example of what would prove to you that KC is guilty?
If a parent hears a loud noise, goes upstairs to find his/her child holding a hammer and there is a hole in the wall, it is reasonable to think the child has just put a hole in the wall with that hammer. Do we know it 100%? Nope! The evil neighbor child could have done it and escaped out the window before the parent got there. Look at the polls on this forum and you will see that the overwhelming majority draw the reasonable conclusion that KC is standing in front of the hole in the wall with a hammer in her hand.

Yes.
The Truth is just the Truth !
We Should believe our EYES!
We Should Believe the evidence !

Thanks !
God Bless !
jjgram

 

[cyberborg]

Clearly we could go back and forth on these issues all day. If Casey made a statement tomorrow that she killed Caylee, someone could say "How do we KNOW that's true? She's lied before." The legal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond a shadow of a doubt." Could aliens have come and taken Caylee? Well, yes. We can not completely discount that theory because we don't know if there are aliens or not; But is it really reasonable to think that's what happened? It is just NOT true that KC had no history of neglecting Caylee (her friends have talked about KC taking her to adult parties and leaving her unattended while "in another room" with TonE --balcony incident). If you argue that her friends might be lying about that, how can you accept when they say something exculpatory as "proof" (that they never witnessed physical abuse, and had a "loving, normal attachment to Caylee," for instance)? If your point is that we will never know 100% that KC did it because the world has pedophiles and secret agents and drug cartels and evil nannies and possibly aliens, then I concede. You often post that "It has not been proven in court." When KC is convicted ,(yes, I said WHEN not if) will you accept her guilt or still insist it wasn't "proven?" Can you give an example of what would prove to you that KC is guilty?
If a parent hears a loud noise, goes upstairs to find his/her child holding a hammer and there is a hole in the wall, it is reasonable to think the child has just put a hole in the wall with that hammer. Do we know it 100%? Nope! The evil neighbor child could have done it and escaped out the window before the parent got there. Look at the polls on this forum and you will see that the overwhelming majority draw the reasonable conclusion that KC is standing in front of the hole in the wall with a hammer in her hand.

:clap::clap: Well said!! :clap::clap:

Post of the thread.