By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[UKGuy]

thanks so much nin and also cranberry. thats exactly what i wanted to know.
exactly as we probably thought placement of the pineapple might be......

k-mac,
Yes, thanks again NIN, the diagram is interesting. Although from my own experience as a kid, when there were no adults about we sat wherever we wanted.

I'm starting to consider, is the pineapple bowl and glass staging, i.e. it was actually located somewhere else originally? I doubt either BR or JonBenet ate out of that bowl since the spoon is too large.

So surely there must be bowls elsewhere, i.e. cleaned up by the helpers?

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[Heymom]

I'm in the minority, but have recently read again earlier discovery by Cyril Wecht, who stated that JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to her death...and earlier. According to him, there is clear evidence of ongoing abuse. He also stated (sorry I don't have a link but it's in the book Who Killed Jonbenet) the garrote and ties were a part of a sex game. I don't think a 9 yr. old boy would go to these extremes. I have a 9 yr. old grandson and a 6 yr. old granddaughter. They disagree, but what happened to JonBenet has many more facets than just sibling rivalry. I'm back to my original theory that Patsy caught John abusing JonBenet and accidently hit her with something when he dodged. Burke may or may not have been awake at the time, and witnessed some of the horror. Having to deal with all that happened in the family would easily make Burke a little different as an adult. Either way, someone got away with murder.

If you haven't read "Foreign Faction" by James Kolar, I urge you to read it. What happened to JonBenet certainly *could have* and likely DID happen by her brother's hands...This case never made any sense to me until I read his book....People really believed that Patsy flipped out and whacked JonBenet hard enough to crack her skull?? Just didn't add up that John would protect her but both of them protecting Burke makes all the sense in the world.

 

[southernmimi]

If you haven't read "Foreign Faction" by James Kolar, I urge you to read it. What happened to JonBenet certainly *could have* and likely DID happen by her brother's hands...This case never made any sense to me until I read his book....People really believed that Patsy flipped out and whacked JonBenet hard enough to crack her skull?? Just didn't add up that John would protect her but both of them protecting Burke makes all the sense in the world.

I have read Foreign Faction , and recently read it again. I do think John would protect Patsy if she caught him in the act of abusing JonBenet. I don't think Patsy flipped out and meant to hit JonBenet. I think she flipped out and tried to hit John, but he moved too quickly.

 

[TexMex]

If you haven't read "Foreign Faction" by James Kolar, I urge you to read it. What happened to JonBenet certainly *could have* and likely DID happen by her brother's hands...This case never made any sense to me until I read his book....People really believed that Patsy flipped out and whacked JonBenet hard enough to crack her skull?? Just didn't add up that John would protect her but both of them protecting Burke makes all the sense in the world.

They both would absolutely protect Burke. No way Patsy protects John

 

[southernmimi]

They both would absolutely protect Burke. No way Patsy protects John

I think Patsy would protect John just to save her family. Of course, I have no idea what happened that night except it was hellish.

 

[PositiveLight]

Imho, if Patsy did catch John and he ducked and she hit JonBenet by accident, I think she would call 911 because she wouldn't possibly know if JonBenet were dead and would try to get her help. Plus she would blame John for it all and throw him under the bus. I don't think (my opinion) that John would be using garrotes and ties as a sex game with JonBenet. Now he may have been abusing her. I've not really ruled that out for myself yet. Burke may have been too. But I don't think the ligature was applied for a sex game. I know adults do this but I don't see it between an adult and a 6 year old. At least not as a game for sure. If John did that to her it wouldn't be as a game and it would have killed her and that would end in a charge of First Degree Murder. Because Patsy would sing like a canary and gain all his wealth when he went to prison. I think in my opinion that it was Burke all the way except staging her body and the ransom note. Just my own opinion though.

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[UKGuy]

The bowl looks like the same bowl used two days prior to decorate the gingerbread houses. Who knows if it got washed. I can see Burke grabbing it and using it for pineapple.

Ambitioned,
Its not that important, I've reviewed Dr Phil's episodes, since some stuff appears less than clear. The bowl of pineapple on the second Dr Phil episode looks like white porcelain without that circumferential line, not a big deal, but can be fact checked!

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[UKGuy]

Imho, if Patsy did catch John and he ducked and she hit JonBenet by accident, I think she would call 911 because she wouldn't possibly know if JonBenet were dead and would try to get her help. Plus she would blame John for it all and throw him under the bus. I don't think (my opinion) that John would be using garrotes and ties as a sex game with JonBenet. Now he may have been abusing her. I've not really ruled that out for myself yet. Burke may have been too. But I don't think the ligature was applied for a sex game. I know adults do this but I don't see it between an adult and a 6 year old. At least not as a game for sure. If John did that to her it wouldn't be as a game and it would have killed her and that would end in a charge of First Degree Murder. Because Patsy would sing like a canary and gain all his wealth when he went to prison. I think in my opinion that it was Burke all the way except staging her body and the ransom note. Just my own opinion though.

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PositiveLight,
Get real. PDI is dead in the water since on Dr Phil BR says he was awake in bed while his mom went psycho, i.e. BR is in on whatever took place.

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[PositiveLight]

PositiveLight,
Get real. PDI is dead in the water since on Dr Phil BR says he was awake in bed while his mom went psycho, i.e. BR is in on whatever took place.

.

Wait what? I KNOW he is. I am a BDI intentionally. I stated I don't buy PR or JR causing the head bash or the sexual assault THAT night. I think BR did it intentionally. Please don't tell me to "Get Real". I think BR heard PR scream and go psycho when she found her body. We've been through this before actually. You tend to forget that I am beginning to lean in the direction of your original theory of it occurring upstairs in one of their bedrooms. Maybe you need to re-read my comment.

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[PositiveLight]

I think Patsy would protect John just to save her family. Of course, I have no idea what happened that night except it was hellish.

Hellish is a darn good word for that night. Poor JonBenet.
I just can't see Patsy protecting John for some reason. I would imagine she would turn on him in a heartbeat. I don't think in my opinion they were close at all. Plus she would have gotten her hands on everything if he went to jail. And she would be protecting Burke from him. This is one of the main reasons I feel it was Burke all the way. The parents wouldn't protect each other but they BOTH would protect Burke. See what I mean? I don't think Patsy would even protect her step kids. Only Burke. That's just my opinion though.

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[UKGuy]

Wait what? I KNOW he is. I am a BDI intentionally. I stated I don't buy PR or JR causing the head bash or the sexual assault THAT night. I think BR did it intentionally. Please don't tell me to "Get Real". I think BR heard PR scream and go psycho when she found her body. We've been through this before actually. You tend to forget that I am beginning to lean in the direction of your original theory of it occurring upstairs in one of their bedrooms. Maybe you need to re-read my comment.

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PositiveLight,
OK, currently I reckon the primary crime-scene is either JonBenet's bedroom or BR's. The reason is their prior meeting's etc. the rest is simply staging.

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[PositiveLight]

PositiveLight,
OK, currently I reckon the primary crime-scene is either JonBenet's bedroom or BR's. The reason is their prior meeting's etc. the rest is simply staging.

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Your theory makes sense to me after hearing Burke say he felt safe in his bed the morning after when everyone flooded the home. His bed was his safe zone I guess. Which would possibly mean that he also felt safe doing other things in his room too. JMOO of course but if we follow his train of thought on where he felt safe, the bedrooms seem to make sense I guess. I wonder if the parents checked on the kids often during the night. Maybe they usually didn't? John says he took melatonin to help him sleep. PR always seemed drugged after the murder but I wonder if she took meds to sleep too? So it could be possible the kids rambled the house at night often without their parents getting on to them. I will never understand why they didn't have baby monitors or something to at least listen out for their kids at night. I knowwww I'm very over protective of my kids. Guilty as charged! But am I the only parent who would have issues with the bedroom layout? Am I the only parent who would be worried something could happen to them during the night? :scared: This is a good example why I am so paranoid when it came to my kids. I'd rather them sleep in my bed than be too far away from me lol! I have always had a king sized bed for exactly that reason too! So everyone could fit! :laughing:When my daughter was pregnant she and I took over the king sized bed due to her being so so sick 24/7. I actually miss those days when they were growing up and we would watch movies together and laugh and have the best time. When my son would visit from college he would always sleep in the bed with us and we would watch bunches of movies and he would play guitar for us and we would just catch up till we all passed out from exhaustion. I think I actually feel safer with my kids close to me. It's usually my best sleep too. I'm like a mother hen. Can't sleep until my chicks are all in the nest safely lol. My daughter has the same habit now with her daughter. She sleeps with her in the bed. If they are sleeping at our house then it's us 3 in the bed lol. Hubby gets kicked to the curb! :laughing:Although he is more than happy to go to the couch lol he said it's like sleeping in a martial arts studio with us in the bed! He jokes that me and my kids favorite side of the bed is the top side! We are terrible bed fellers. But at least we know where the kids are and that they are safe. My son says he misses that the most now that he's off on his own. We've always had such a supportive relationship between us all and love to laugh and share stories. Dangit now I want him to come visit and play the guitar and make me laugh!

 

[singularity]

So surely there must be bowls elsewhere, i.e. cleaned up by the helpers?

.

Well...there's that tupperware container that went ignored by BPD.

They both would absolutely protect Burke. No way Patsy protects John

No way? Of course she could protect him. He was the breadwinner of the house and there was a LOT of bread. Hard to imagine Patsy leaving and taking Burke and marching down to the welfare office to collect food stamps.

This isn't your normal, average, every day woman. Read ransom note for details why....

She'd stick with him to the end of the line.

I don't think (my opinion) that John would be using garrotes and ties as a sex game with JonBenet. Now he may have been abusing her. I've not really ruled that out for myself yet. Burke may have been too.

IMO this is what really makes this case so much more complex.....the abuse. It may have had nothing to do with her murder or could have had everything to do with it or some point in between. If her abuse had nothing to do with it, it's certainly muddying the waters to the extreme.

PositiveLight,
Get real. PDI is dead in the water since on Dr Phil BR says he was awake in bed while his mom went psycho, i.e. BR is in on whatever took place.

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While it is not "dead in the water" I did find that to be the most interesting statement on the show. When she's going "psycho", the cavalry hasn't arrived yet so who exactly would she be putting on a show for? Burke? Not very likely. He should have been asked to elaborate on that specific moment. How long was she going psycho? What else did she say? THis is one thing I cant stand about the Ramseys....tiny blanket statements that cover everything.

You tend to forget that I am beginning to lean in the direction of your original theory of it occurring upstairs in one of their bedrooms.

Regardless of who actually killed her, its fairly obvious that the initial attack took place upstairs. Those rooms are in complete disarray(specifically JAR's) and Patsy made that slip in her interview about not seeing any blood in JB's room when she wasn't even being asked. Even though BPD screwed up big time, in the interviews they focus on the bedrooms(the basement as well). Its because that's where the manure hit the fan.

 

[TexMex]

Well...there's that tupperware container that went ignored by BPD.


No way? Of course she could protect him. He was the breadwinner of the house and there was a LOT of bread. Hard to imagine Patsy leaving and taking Burke and marching down to the welfare office to collect food stamps.

This isn't your normal, average, every day woman. Read ransom note for details why....

She'd stick with him to the end of the line.

IMO this is what really makes this case so much more complex.....the abuse. It may have had nothing to do with her murder or could have had everything to do with it or some point in between. If her abuse had nothing to do with it, it's certainly muddying the waters to the extreme.


While it is not "dead in the water" I did find that to be the most interesting statement on the show. When she's going "psycho", the cavalry hasn't arrived yet so who exactly would she be putting on a show for? Burke? Not very likely. He should have been asked to elaborate on that specific moment. How long was she going psycho? What else did she say? THis is one thing I cant stand about the Ramseys....tiny blanket statements that cover everything.


Regardless of who actually killed her, its fairly obvious that the initial attack took place upstairs. Those rooms are in complete disarray(specifically JAR's) and Patsy made that slip in her interview about not seeing any blood in JB's room when she wasn't even being asked. Even though BPD screwed up big time, in the interviews they focus on the bedrooms(the basement as well). Its because that's where the manure hit the fan.

JMO but Patsy had lots of close family. She wouldn't t be on food stamps. The totality of evidence (which Kolar saw) makes the most sense with the parents uniting to protect the son

 

[singularity]

JMO but Patsy had lots of close family. She wouldn't t be on food stamps.

I was exaggerating to make a point. I should've put a smiley at the end of that.

She could've raked him over the coals and cooked his goose during a divorce but that would have required the facade of the perfect American family to be shattered and they weren't gonna do that. Even if we pretend for a second they are innocent, a majority of marriages that suffer the loss of a child end in divorce.

 

[PositiveLight]

I just can't see Patsy protecting John. Especially if he was abusing either kid. Especially if it led to JonBenet's death. I just feel (my opinion) that she would sing like a canary immediately if it was John. She wouldn't need welfare because she would probably get everything in the divorce including his shares in the company etc. If he was convicted he wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Plus her family had money so she would have been fine. I think for the main part John and Patsy weren't affectionate and it was more of a business marriage sort of speak. I'm curious if there was anything signed prior to marriage like a prenup. Anyone have any knowledge of the answer to this?

 

[CoreyRocks]

The bowl looks like the same bowl used two days prior to decorate the gingerbread houses. Who knows if it got washed. I can see Burke grabbing it and using it for pineapple.

Is that bowl empty? The placement looks odd to ne. Moo.

Also zoom in on the upper right corner of the portrait of JonBenét and Burke ... she looks very happy to me, BR not at all. ????

 

[PositiveLight]

Is that bowl empty? The placement looks odd to ne. Moo.

Also zoom in on the upper right corner of the portrait of JonBenét and Burke ... she looks very happy to me, BR not at all. ????

I can't tell if the bowl is empty Corey. Maybe it has something white like marshmallows in it? I notice in a lot of their pictures together JonBenet seems happy but Burke even when smiling seems forced. But when they are with their parents he seems more happy. It's definitely weird. I remember looking up to my brother and just loving him so much meanwhile to him I was just a little bothersome sister.

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[Ambitioned]

I think someone zoomed in on it and determined it was coconut for the decorating.

 

[PositiveLight]

I think someone zoomed in on it and determined it was coconut for the decorating.

Ahh yes that would definitely make sense!