CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #9

[LAhiker]

How much sleuthing is allowed here on Websleuths on a person who is not a named suspect or PIO?

If I understand things correctly, we're not supposed to sleuth someone (other than the missing person or victim) who isn't a named suspect or POI (unless the moderators make an exception which is unusual). That includes family members of the victim. (Presumably what we do on our own time is our own business, but we're not supposed to post anything reflecting such sleuthing.)

But as far as I know, we are permitted to discuss comments and actions by such people that have been reported in mainstream media. Such people are still considered victims, so though we can question their statements (and I think, speculate about events), we're supposed to avoid overt accusations or insinuations.

As far as I know our VI is permitted to state things about the case that are based on his own sources in addition to mainstream media. We can refer to things he has said. If we disagree with him, we're not supposed to argue with him, but just scroll on by.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

How much sleuthing is allowed here on Websleuths on a person who is not a named suspect or PIO?

I’m sure this is a rhetorical question, but the answer for those with less time here than you , we can sleuth all we want, but we can’t post our findings until and unless a POI or suspect is named. I remember on my first case here back in 2013 (Stephanie Warner) I sleuthed her boyfriend and found all sorts of very significant information that I posted. It was mod-deleted, but the mod was kind enough to save it for me so I could post it if he was named the POI. I had to wait a month or so, but it happened and I was ready.

Well, on this thread it seems anything goes which I find very sad.

Mods can’t be everywhere, so it’s up to us to know and adhere to the TOS. When that fails, mods want to know, in my experience.

 

[Lilibet]

ZERO.
NONE.
ZIP.
NADA.

So much more succinct than I was!

 

[10ofRods]

Well, on this thread it seems anything goes which I find very sad.

Report the posts, then? We are allowed (at least according to longterm members on other threads) to comment upon any statements given by others (including family) to MSM. I haven't seen any actual sleuthing done regarding any of the family members who have spoken publicly. We have one VI who has added some context regarding what the other family member has said (and revealed) on MSM. But I haven't seen anyone mention any of that for pages and pages now.

It's not sleuthing if the person has made a public statement, IOW. By this I mean commenting on that statement or saying you think it rings true or that it doesn't is *not* sleuthing, it's an opinion. See @Lilibet's post above.

I'm not going to ask for an example of any sleuthing posted on this thread as that's an imposition, but if anyone can point to any sleuthing done beyond Barbara (and that's been exceptionally thin, except for the details from the VI - which we are allowed to read and incorporate into our theories), I'd like to see what you all think is a "sad" example of sleuthing. I have seen none. I can think of lots.

It's not sleuthing to go drive down Kelbaker Road and take pictures (for example). Or attempt to match the topo map and geography to the actions of LE (as posted on Twitter and Nixle) or the actions stated by the family member in a MSM interview. I think we are quite correct in zeroing in on the place that RT mentions as the last place he saw Barbara, but that happened because SAR personnel show a place where they started the sniffer dogs that seems a likely place. We could be wrong. But that's inference, it's not sleuthing.

Building theories is not sleuthing, IMO. Everyone is entitled to opinions and hypotheses, as far as I understand the TOS. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So, I think we're all well in compliance with what CocoChanel said.

And ought we not to report any examples where sleuthing has been done to an unnamed suspect? We have remained exceptionally quiet about other family members (one of whom did give a MSM interview, but we have never mentioned anything we know about that person from SM, even though there's a TON of stuff).

(Inferences, critical thinking, opinions, theories are not, to my knowledge, sleuthing, but if mods say that such things are also banned, then of course, we'll all do our best to comply).

The thread will of course fall silent.

And I find that very sad.

LE says no evidence of Barbara at Kelbacker/HH (but LE has said that about missing person cases in the past and someone has found them, later, often slightly outside the search perimeter, which is limited in July to how far searchers can carry water and how hot it is in certain parts of the search). LE says it doesn't think it was abduction. RT says he thinks it was. He said this publicly, he contradicted LE. He's entitled to do so. We are entitled to comment, as I understand it.

 

[Handsome Sailor]

please, no self-licking ice cream cones, or mutual admiration societies on the thread.

 

[Lilibet]

I'd like to know more @ RT & the fact he is a pilot

Flight logs - ?

How often does he fly - ?

Is it regular or not...? About every month or so, or what?

Did he take a flight after her disappearance that doesn't fit his flight pattern, ie, hasn't in months: then does suddenly after his wife disappears - ?

JMO

This is a good example of what we are not allowed to sleuth and post the answers to per TOS. If you find the answers, you can hold onto them in case he is designated a POI.

 

[rosesfromangels]

please, no self-licking ice cream cones, or mutual admiration societies on the thread.

Post of the day!

 

[10ofRods]

This is a good example of what we are not allowed to sleuth and post the answers to per TOS. If you find the answers, you can hold onto them in case he is designated a POI.

Yes, and it has been asked about 10 times by different people and no one has taken the bait. Or if someone did post something, mods removed it.

People ask questions of this type all the time, but they don't get answers here on WS.

There must be a post about this topic that is making people ask - and it probably should be reported, but I have no idea where to find it.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I think the idiom interpretation is certainly possible. Or he was literally overturning rocks looking for small clues out of desperation.

I think we have to keep in mind that RT’s conversation with family quoted here by @dbdb11 is to the best of her recollection by her own admission (days later) and in her own words. We can’t really glean a totally accurate or literal accounting of time, speech or actions by RT from this account. Unfortunately, the interviews we have on film are also edited and incomplete. So we don’t have a lot to go on except a few words, actions and inaction...open to interpretation.
JMO

Right! I was reminded of the idiom but whose knows, as you said, what RT said or what he meant.

 

[al66pine]

That's the Way LE (Usually) Works

Thank you! I remember in the SP case, LE came forward in like day 2 stating that the husband was cleared as a suspect. Just thought it was curious why LE won’t tell us one way or another here, even though RT himself claims to be the “prime suspect”.

@Gigi3 Thanks for your post. bbm
LE often has a person in their sights as a PoI or suspect but is silent on the issue, as there's rarely any reason to release info to public or tip their hand to suspect before an arrest.
Occasionally by their actions, LE makes no secret of their suspicion about someone, for ex., tailing him openly and making it obvious to PoI/suspect.

Nor is LE obligated to advise public or suspect that an arrest is imminent. Could cause/encourage suspect to flee, destroy evidence, eliminate witness, or arm self for a barricade situation as LE arrives to arrest. An announcement could also prompt suspect to hire atty, if he has not already done that. Then at the very least such a stmt from LE would likely close the suspect's mouth re any possible incriminating things he might say.

No obligation to announce "clearing" a person. Let's say, based on a co-worker's alibi for him, LE announces publicly that they "cleared" Joe Blow of an open homicide case, then LE learns co-worker himself aided or abetted in death, or alibi was blown apart for other reasons. If, later Joe Blow is arrested and tried for homicide, his defense team would try to characterize LE's as conducting shoddy, zig-zagging investigation, to try casting doubt into jurors' minds.

IOW, for LE to announce someone has been 'cleared,' not much upside and but could be big downside. jmo

 

[Lilibet]

<rsbm> Such people are still considered victims, so though we can question their statements (and I think, speculate about events), we're supposed to avoid overt accusations or insinuations.

Blue BBM

Building theories is not sleuthing, IMO. Everyone is entitled to opinions and hypotheses, as far as I understand the TOS.

BBM

You’re absolutely right that building theories is not sleuthing. But I think that what’s hard in expressing our “opinions and hypotheses” is walking that fine line and “avoiding overt accusations and insinuations” as @LAhiker put it. It’s so easy to slide over into stating (subtly or not) that our theory or opinion is that RT did away with Barbara. That’s not allowed, but it has happened.

Tongue in cheek suggestion: Perhaps we could take a page from OJ’s “If I did it” book and preface our theories and opinions “IF he did it...”

But that still strays outside of TOS boundaries, which are based on viewing family as victims. I just know that it’s a good rule of thumb to consider how we would feel about our comments if/when Barbara is found and RT wasn’t involved. I know I haven’t always followed that, but I keep trying. It’s a tough call.

 

[10ofRods]

Using an "if" is really important. And we can say, "If a person did X," meaning that someone in the same situation might behave a certain way.

Since we've gone sort of meta, I'm wondering if Websleuthers ever take a moment to allow some people to share their darker views. I, for example, do not believe Barbara is alive. I think there's a really high probability that she's in the desert somewhere. I don't know why she ended up there or how. But I share LE's skepticism about the exquisite timing needed for an abduction (although that's still a possibility - but if so, the stats are not on her side, both stranger abduction and desert are killers).

I just want to take a moment to feel really sad, for this woman whose family is grieving her (but without the closure of knowing what happened), for this woman who may never have a celebration of life. We older people are more comfortable with death, but it is still quite sad. She was a vibrant woman whose life seemed to center around family, particularly the family seen in recent photos, with that darling little boy. She was RT's constant companion, seldom seen without him, except when she walked her beloved dog. I feel for her, and the hole she has left. I feel for her too, that the community in which she lived has not responded with support and vigils and posters. I am distressed that MSM was all over this case when it was headline-grabbing material, but no reporters trained to do this kind of work have followed up. I don't blame any news agencies or LE agencies, there are far too many people.

But, as the 2 month anniversary rolls around this week, I'm just feeling really sad. If the desert got her, damn that desert. Let's all still enjoy our lives in the outdoors, but let's remember it's still a wilderness out there and we need to be as serious and devoted to safety as our various ancestors were, where ever they lived.

 

[Lilibet]

Using an "if" is really important. And we can say, "If a person did X," meaning that someone in the same situation might behave a certain way.

Since we've gone sort of meta, I'm wondering if Websleuthers ever take a moment to allow some people to share their darker views. I, for example, do not believe Barbara is alive. I think there's a really high probability that she's in the desert somewhere. I don't know why she ended up there or how. But I share LE's skepticism about the exquisite timing needed for an abduction (although that's still a possibility - but if so, the stats are not on her side, both stranger abduction and desert are killers).

I just want to take a moment to feel really sad, for this woman whose family is grieving her (but without the closure of knowing what happened), for this woman who may never have a celebration of life. We older people are more comfortable with death, but it is still quite sad. She was a vibrant woman whose life seemed to center around family, particularly the family seen in recent photos, with that darling little boy. She was RT's constant companion, seldom seen without him, except when she walked her beloved dog. I feel for her, and the hole she has left. I feel for her too, that the community in which she lived has not responded with support and vigils and posters. I am distressed that MSM was all over this case when it was headline-grabbing material, but no reporters trained to do this kind of work have followed up. I don't blame any news agencies or LE agencies, there are far too many people.

But, as the 2 month anniversary rolls around this week, I'm just feeling really sad. If the desert got her, damn that desert. Let's all still enjoy our lives in the outdoors, but let's remember it's still a wilderness out there and we need to be as serious and devoted to safety as our various ancestors were, where ever they lived.

Beautiful post @10ofRods. I’ll just say Thank You and ditto from me.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I hear you. so L.E don't agree with an abduction (as far as we know), RT thinks BT was abducted. do we know why L.E aren't convinced re abduction? where does that leave L.E?

i'v flip-flopped a couple of times. It's hard to not feel compassion for a person who's loved one has vanished without a trace. It's also reasonable to look at the person who was last with her. I hope LE have more than mere hope to lead them to BT. going round in circles in my head

BBM: LE spokesperson was quoted in the Daily Mail article (on Media Thread) as saying the location she disappeared was 'too remote' for an abduction.

 

[Sunnymicki]

LE told our VI that there was photo proof that Barbara had been there. Are you saying that if they didn’t search somewhere else it means there weren’t photos or am I misunderstanding your question?

Do we know the exact perimeter of the search area? They may very well have covered an expanded area and/or may do so in the future. I expect that SAR and LE take those possibilities into consideration, calculating the possible distance she could walk in any direction after searching in the more immediate area.

In any case, they conducted a 9 day search under very difficult circumstances and stated that they were satisfied that Barb had been in that area because of photos. I believe LE.

BBM

Didn't they actually say that they found no trace or evidence of BT? (I forget the exact wording.) They didn't address photos as evidence that she had been there at all. It seems odd to me that they'd put out a public statement implying that she may not have been there if they were confident that photos proved she was there.

MOO

 

[RANCH]

BBM: LE spokesperson was quoted in the Daily Mail article (on Media Thread) as saying the location she disappeared was 'too remote' for an abduction.

Here is the quote from the Daily Mail article.

'We don't think she was abducted. It's a very remote area. There's no evidence to suggest she was abducted,' spokeswoman Jodi Miller told DailyMail.com

The spokeswoman didn't rule out an abduction, she said that they didn't have any evidence that suggests an abduction. That was at an early point in the investigation.

And yes it's a remote area. Obviously that makes a random abduction less likely but it doesn't make it impossible. JMO.

California police say missing hiker who vanished 'in her bikini' was NOT abducted | Daily Mail Online

 

[10ofRods]

My first thought was something like stranger foul play (and I mentioned that we have had our own escapades out there, someone tried to run us off the road, we did pull over, that person made a U and came up behind us again, obviously without good intent - it was a single person who looked crazy to me and was laughing throughout, in an old beater car).

We got back on the road, made our own U and headed back to the interstate. Crime out there in Baker and Barstow is crazy. We watched an armed gas station robbery in Barstow within 3-4 minutes of getting off the freeway. So, yeah, things can happen in a really brief time. Motel rooms are broken into. Property is not safe in cars, etc. And my initial thoughts also included claims that locals have that SBCSO doesn't attend closely enough to crime in their area (but WS cites the Corwin case, I believe it is, as an excellent example of SBCSO detective work). I got interested in and involved in a missing person case in Victorville. AFAIK, she was never found (young mother).

My dad started going to Mojave Preserve area (and Indio and 29 Palms) circa 1934 and had his own share of crazy stories.

At any rate, as we get older, we feel we are more vulnerable out there. Just saying. A woman did go missing from the Preserve in 2006, I believe it was, and partied in Vegas, later dropped off safe (like 10 days later) in Kingman.

 

[Lilibet]

My first thought was something like stranger foul play (and I mentioned that we have had our own escapades out there, someone tried to run us off the road, we did pull over, that person made a U and came up behind us again, obviously without good intent - it was a single person who looked crazy to me and was laughing throughout, in an old beater car).

We got back on the road, made our own U and headed back to the interstate. Crime out there in Baker and Barstow is crazy. We watched an armed gas station robbery in Barstow within 3-4 minutes of getting off the freeway. So, yeah, things can happen in a really brief time. Motel rooms are broken into. Property is not safe in cars, etc. And my initial thoughts also included claims that locals have that SBCSO doesn't attend closely enough to crime in their area (but WS cites the Corwin case, I believe it is, as an excellent example of SBCSO detective work). I got interested in and involved in a missing person case in Victorville. AFAIK, she was never found (young mother).

My dad started going to Mojave Preserve area (and Indio and 29 Palms) circa 1934 and had his own share of crazy stories.

At any rate, as we get older, we feel we are more vulnerable out there. Just saying. A woman did go missing from the Preserve in 2006, I believe it was, and partied in Vegas, later dropped off safe (like 10 days later) in Kingman.

Your local knowledge and insight have been invaluable @10ofRods. Thank you.

 

[Yvettea]

A woman did go missing from the Preserve in 2006, I believe it was, and partied in Vegas, later dropped off safe (like 10 days later) in Kingman.

We all have to get our ideas from some where don’t we?

Maybe BT is voluntarily missing. They stop for one last picture about a quarter of a mile from the camper. Barbara says she needs/wants to meet at the camper. She walks away and soon RT can’t see her.

As she rounds the corner she begins to jog knowing she has only 10 to 15 minutes to get out of sight. Somewhere out there someone is driving around waiting to pick her up, waiting for her call. Unknown to Robert she has managed to get her hands on a cell phone.

IMO MOO JMO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

My first thought was something like stranger foul play (and I mentioned that we have had our own escapades out there, someone tried to run us off the road, we did pull over, that person made a U and came up behind us again, obviously without good intent - it was a single person who looked crazy to me and was laughing throughout, in an old beater car).

We got back on the road, made our own U and headed back to the interstate. Crime out there in Baker and Barstow is crazy. We watched an armed gas station robbery in Barstow within 3-4 minutes of getting off the freeway. So, yeah, things can happen in a really brief time. Motel rooms are broken into. Property is not safe in cars, etc. And my initial thoughts also included claims that locals have that SBCSO doesn't attend closely enough to crime in their area (but WS cites the Corwin case, I believe it is, as an excellent example of SBCSO detective work). I got interested in and involved in a missing person case in Victorville. AFAIK, she was never found (young mother).

My dad started going to Mojave Preserve area (and Indio and 29 Palms) circa 1934 and had his own share of crazy stories.

At any rate, as we get older, we feel we are more vulnerable out there. Just saying. A woman did go missing from the Preserve in 2006, I believe it was, and partied in Vegas, later dropped off safe (like 10 days later) in Kingman.

Yes, there are so many possibilities, it’s hard to say, especially with no word and IMO, silence on this case...

Two months this Friday since dear Barbara disappears.

I myself (one person who doesn’t know her but has been following her disappearance here and in the media) and am paying attention to anything that might give a clue as to what happened to her, is hoping for the best! I can’t imagine the heartfelt trauma her loved ones are experiencing... there are so many unknowns, IMO.

I have to wonder where LE’s ‘active investigation’ is leading them (per VI saying he requested a copy of RT’s 911 call and they told him it was not available to the public because it was part of an active investigation).

MOO