CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #9

[kay74]

sorry have no idea what your point is about despising someone....
it doesn't relate to my post.

barb was on the track almost back to her RV. IT WAS VISIBLE.
the suggestion that she could somehow get delirious, unwell and suddenly vanish off the face of the earth with a 9 day search party finding nothing is just falling very low to realistic possibilities. but I understand why a lot of posters here cling to this idea. it is still 'remotely" possible .

if however barbs demise was for nefarious reasons.....(and nobody can say at this point it isn't.)
why should this astute smart healthy heat loving lady be pushed post after post after post that she was responsible/accountable for her own death.
weather it be...getting lost....heat stroke.....dehydrated from drinking beer....burnt to a crisp from being practically nude.....its very close to victim blaming imo.

moo

You're not accountable for your own death if you get lost! A poster on here went to that location Barb was at and took the wrong trail back and ended up on the highway. Have you ever seen this desert and the maze it is. We don't know that BT saw the RV from the rock location!!!!

 

[GordianKnot]

IMO a family members (not VI) input into the investigation may have produced more red herrings than LE (or anyone else) can cope with. IMO this has not helped matters at all.

I don't believe for one moment that LE is wasting time chasing any red herrings.

The SBCSD is smart enough to know there aren't any pyramids in the Mohave desert.
LE knows that any pyramid sightings here are just a mirage.

They're not ou looking for pyramids, any more than they're looking for a random abductor.

I'm confident that LE knows where to look, figuratively speaking.
Hopefully, technology and good old-fashioned detective work is helping LE to know where to look literally as well.

This LEA has a proven track record of finding the proverbial needle in the haystack. (*See Erin Corwin case)

Barb needs to be found.
I'm 100% confident the SBCSD is actively working to locate her.

JMO.

 

[Nikynoo]

I don't believe for one moment that LE is wasting time chasing any red herrings.

The SBCSD is smart enough to know there aren't any pyramids in the Mohave desert.
LE knows that any pyramid sightings here are just a mirage.

They're not ou looking for pyramids, any more than they're looking for a random abductor.

I'm confident that LE knows where to look, figuratively speaking.
Hopefully, technology and good old-fashioned detective work is helping LE to know where to look literally as well.

This LEA has a proven track record of finding the proverbial needle in the haystack. (*See Erin Corwin case)

Barb needs to be found.
I'm 100% confident the SBCSD is actively working to locate her.

JMO.

I was more concerned about 'everyone else' than LE- I agree that LE can cut through the BS. My concern is that other people close to this investigation cannot.

 

[LAhiker]

Can I just clarify what your thoughts are in regards to my BBM please? My understanding is that the search teams could not locate Barbara, not that she was never there. Below is an excerpt from Fox News - Daily searches suspended for bikini-clad woman who vanished in Mojave Desert . My interpretation is that they could not locate Barbara, or any of her belongings and the dogs did not pick up any scent. That does not mean that Barbara was not in the location, it means that they could not locate her where they searched.
"But searchers had to cut their efforts short due to "extreme temperatures."

"There has been no evidence of Barbara Thomas located on previous days," the sheriff's office said. "Temperatures are expected to reach over 100 degrees."

As I stated above, this is my interpretation of the statement. People interpret statements differently, and I would be interested in your interpretation too,to see another angle.

Here's the thing I find confusing about this. On the one hand, as you quote, after the search, the sheriff's office said ""There has been no evidence of Barbara Thomas located on previous days."

On the other hand, the case detective told our VI that RT's photos confirmed that BT had been where and when he said she was. While the detective apparently didn't say exactly where and when that was, it's a reasonable inference that it was in the area near Kelbaker/Hidden Hill where SAR was searching.

So here's the thing. Even if they couldn't find BT herself, if she was where and when he said she was, wouldn't SAR at least have found evidence of her on the trail where RT said she was and/or where she presumably appeared to be in the photos??

Some possible explanations, most of which have been discussed here:

1. Sniffer dogs aren't perfect, and the heat makes it harder for them to search, so they couldn't even find her on the trail. This is the most innocent explanation and may be the most likely.
2. Maybe they did find evidence that she was on the path but only meant they didn't find any evidence of her eventual location?? Based on their statement, this seems very unlikely.
3. I think the search had long been suspended when the detective told our VI that the photos confirmed that BT was there (if that was what the detective meant by his comment). Maybe something about this timeline explains the possible discrepancy between SAR not finding evidence she was there and the photos possibly showing she was. Not sure what that would be.
4. Maybe something is off about the photos or their time stamps and LE didn't know it when the detective spoke with our VI. Or maybe the detective wasn't telling the whole truth to the VI. Or maybe the detective was telling the truth but the location that was confirmed isn't we think it is after all-- for instance, maybe the photographic evidence of BT's location comes from a stop they made before Kelbaker/Hidden Hill.
5. ???

 

[10ofRods]

Your local knowledge and insight have been invaluable @10ofRods. Thank you.

You're so kind, Lilibet.

We are all doing whatever we can. Let's not forget that it was this thread on this forum that helped get the Missing Person posters out and I have no doubt that eventually SBCSO will say something. The fact that they have told the VI that there are no further searches planned tells us all something.

 

[al66pine]

Did LE Say: "Not Suspect Foul Play" or "No Evidence of Abduction?"

'believers'? LOL, this is a missing person case and LE has stated that they do not suspect foul play....

@Nikynoo Thanks for your post. bbm I do not recall seeing bbm from LE, have seen posts here using that phrase. The ^ two are different.
------ LE stmt "not suspect foul play" (if made) means they think nobody, including RT, was involved in BT's disappearance, imo.
------ LE stmt "found no evidence to suggest she was abducted" per below* means they found no evidence that someone (other than RT) took BT away by force, deception, threat, etc.
Nikynoo, can you (or anyone) pls provide exact verbatim quote from LE saying:
they do "not suspect foul play"? And a link? Not looking for a reporter saying LE this and that, but a direct quotation in quote marks "not suspect foul play"? Or vid w those words from LE's mouth. Thanks in adv.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
* From @RANCH, post 241. Thank you, Ranch.
"Here is the quote from the Daily Mail article.
'We don't think she was abducted. It's a very remote area. There's no evidence to suggest she was abducted,' spokeswoman Jodi Miller told DailyMail.com
California police say missing hiker who vanished 'in her bikini' was NOT abducted | Daily Mail Online " bbm

 

[cazador]

Until independent feet are placed on that soil in temperatures that tolerate a good search, we will never know.
jmho

 

[10ofRods]

Yes, that's true. It's easier to remember the story if it's as close to the truth as possible.
But how is that an indication that he lied?

It's not. I'm not sure how I implied that it was. He does say LE says he was deceptive on the polygraph. We know that LE says that to many people, just to see what happens next. Almost everyone has some unusual results on polygraphs.

But I specifically said I was not speaking of RT. I am speaking of smart criminals (the ones who get away with things, including polygraph results). A smart criminal keeps his/her narrative close to what actually happened, so as not to throw up any red flags, especially in the early investigation. I worked on a case where LE had suspicions (which they did not tell me and which surprised me later) and some of the characters in the story had passed polygraphs. One was lying, but had a real knack for sticking close to the truth (and inside his mind, he could easily tell himself he was basically telling the truth). I was able to spend some time with him and his life history was fascinating. He also took an MMPI (and so did the others - all of them scored a little high, but still normal, on one scale that measures risk-taking). His score was a bit higher than the others, which gave me a reason to discuss it with him.

IF the only witness in this case is lying about anything substantial or IF he merely misremembers or IF his memory (or hearing) are poor, is anyone's guess. But there's a big hole in this case. Why did he tell the world that LE considers him the "prime suspect"? Why does he think foul play is involved?

Isn't the easier hypothesis to assume that Barbara simply got lost while disoriented due to oncoming heat exhaustion?

 

[CSIDreamer]

It's not. I'm not sure how I implied that it was. He does say LE says he was deceptive on the polygraph. We know that LE says that to many people, just to see what happens next. Almost everyone has some unusual results on polygraphs.

But I specifically said I was not speaking of RT. I am speaking of smart criminals (the ones who get away with things, including polygraph results). A smart criminal keeps his/her narrative close to what actually happened, so as not to throw up any red flags, especially in the early investigation. I worked on a case where LE had suspicions (which they did not tell me and which surprised me later) and some of the characters in the story had passed polygraphs. One was lying, but had a real knack for sticking close to the truth (and inside his mind, he could easily tell himself he was basically telling the truth). I was able to spend some time with him and his life history was fascinating. He also took an MMPI (and so did the others - all of them scored a little high, but still normal, on one scale that measures risk-taking). His score was a bit higher than the others, which gave me a reason to discuss it with him.

IF the only witness in this case is lying about anything substantial or IF he merely misremembers or IF his memory (or hearing) are poor, is anyone's guess. But there's a big hole in this case. Why did he tell the world that LE considers him the "prime suspect"? Why does he think foul play is involved?

Isn't the easier hypothesis to assume that Barbara simply got lost while disoriented due to oncoming heat exhaustion?

Prime suspect, crime scene, deceptive. All words RT has used. Why, I wonder? Each word pointing right back at him.

 

[al66pine]

Temp of Mohave desert floor?

Until independent feet are placed on that soil in temperatures that tolerate a good search, we will never know. jmho

@cazador Thanks for your post.
I wonder what desert floor temp was during July SAR days. What would air/ambient temp would have to be for desert floor temp to be 'comfortable' for humans and dogs? And air temp, for search to resume as a rescue mission?

IIRC, in June 2108 when Schmeirers were lost at Amboy Crater, desert floor temp was estimated ~160+F (71.1C). I don't recall source, thread here: Found Deceased - CA - Susan, 65 & William Schmeirer, 64 (both found deceased) Amboy Crater, 13 June 2018

 

[cazador]

Temp of Mohave desert floor?

@cazador Thanks for your post.
I wonder what desert floor temp was during July SAR days. What would air/ambient temp would have to be for desert floor temp to be 'comfortable' for humans and dogs? And air temp, for search to resume as a rescue mission?

IIRC, in June 2108 when Schmeirers were lost at Amboy Crater, desert floor temp was estimated ~160+F (71.1C). I don't recall source, thread here: Found Deceased - CA - Susan, 65 & William Schmeirer, 64 (both found deceased) Amboy Crater, 13 June 2018

I did not work the case of the Schmeirers. They were not found inside the Crater if I recall ..
Were they found in different locations ?

On this case.
If nobody else does it, I will try my best to go for a walk in November of this year.
Looking for objects like Hat, Cup, Cloth or Boots..
I do hope somebody does this before I can but it is still to hot for me.

 

[Kapua]

I did not work the case of the Schmeirers. They were not found inside the Crater if I recall ..
Were they found in different locations ?

On this case.
If nobody else does it, I will try my best to go for a walk in November of this year.
Looking for objects like Hat, Cup, Cloth or Boots..
I do hope somebody does this before I can but it is still to hot for me.

If I can arrange the time, I will join you. It is still way too hot for me as well. (I'm accustomed to Central Coast weather.) November should be good and maybe we can organize a decent-sized private search team, assuming that Barbara hasn't been found by hardier hikers by then.

 

[cazador]

If I can arrange the time, I will join you. It is still way too hot for me as well. (I'm accustomed to Central Coast weather.)November should be good and maybe we can organize a decent-sized private search team, assuming that Barbara hasn't been found by hardier hikers by then.

Absolutely .. We are both Central Coast all the way
Thank You

 

[Jade]

I did not work the case of the Schmeirers. They were not found inside the Crater if I recall ..
Were they found in different locations ?

On this case.
If nobody else does it, I will try my best to go for a walk in November of this year.
Looking for objects like Hat, Cup, Cloth or Boots..
I do hope somebody does this before I can but it is still to hot for me.

If I can arrange the time, I will join you. It is still way too hot for me as well. (I'm accustomed to Central Coast weather.) November should be good and maybe we can organize a decent-sized private search team, assuming that Barbara hasn't been found by hardier hikers by then.

Absolutely .. We are both Central Coast all the way
Thank You

Aww you all are great. What a thoughtful caring plan.

We will be back here cheering you on.

Of course hoping before that she will turn up on her own like Jamie with a tale to tell and years to live yet.

 

[10ofRods]

I can’t swear what LE’s exact words were, but I had the impression that they said that their search did not find evidence of her. Obviously, the photos were not part of their search, so the photos may simply not have been addressed in their statement.

I hear it the same way. Also, in other searches by the same department, they don't say "We turned up evidence and it's pictures" even when they have them. They're speaking only of those 9 days, day by day, and the fact that nothing was found during those days.

Respectfully, I disagree. TBH it seems that the attire BT was wearing that day is the norm for desert rats, but in any case, what Barbara was wearing is not the reason she is missing imo

A person definitely fares better in heat when dressed in long sleeves/light colored shirt, light colored pants, broad brimmed light hat. This is in the park literature for desert parks (although Mojave NP doesn't have a kiosk because it isn't a park). Even dark colored clothing is preferable to bare skin, since it provides an small evaporative cooling factor. I'm sure LE and SAR are aware of that.

But, for a person who lives in a place that is hotter than Mojave Preserve on average (Bullhead City), and is going on a short walk (2 miles round trip), it is not at all unusual for people to wear whatever casual clothing they prefer. They generally survive, they don't die in the desert. Stating facts about how heat works (and clothing works) is not victim blaming. One of the benefits of WS is that we can learn about various situations and how to be safe in them.

If RT's narrative is roughly accurate (let's say he doesn't precisely remember how long he was in taking his photo and maybe he doesn't know the exact spot where he last saw her), it would mean that Barbara moved outside the search perimeter. I don't think the ground search was a huge amount of ground, but I do think they tried to be very thorough in the ground they covered. Even so, it's very hard to do shoulder to shoulder grid work in that terrain.

Why would Barbara wander away from the RV area? Even if she couldn't see it from one section of trail, she'd be able to see it from another section. Even if on the wrong trail, she'd eventually come to the road (20 minutes away by the longest wrong trail, IMO).

She would be able to hear the road. RT says they were 1/4 of a mile from the RV. That's a 5 minute walk for most able-bodied people. While she might not have had a watch, unless she was already heat-confused, she'd be able to roughly estimate 5 minutes (being off by a factor of 2 would be unusual for any normally functioning adult.

As someone who has been in the early stages of heat exhaustion, I am well aware of how the sufferer does not notice the confusion (that's why it is called a symptom; like other mental symptoms, the sufferer does not notice it).

So, it's possible that Barbara was suffering from heat exhaustion. It's possible RT was also impaired.

We don't know, one way or another.

I'm not sure why anyone has to be blamed for anything, though. Figuring out what happened to a person is a mental process, blame is emotional. I think almost anyone can make a series of mistakes in the wilderness, each one of which is minor, but they can add up.

Separating from your hiking partner is by far the most likely mistake to result in fatality (source: all of Michael P. Ghiglieri's research and documentation). Being in a hurry to do something (because of heat or cold) is also a risk factor. Ghiglieri also notes that preoccupation with taking pictures or needing a toilet break are risk factors.

Being alone in a wilderness situation is a huge risk factor. Sometimes being two in the wilderness isn't great either.

 

[al66pine]

@LAhiker Thanks for your post, w bbm, sbm, and some thoughts in red, in your post.
LAhiker post in black.
Stmt 1... after the search, the sheriff's office said ""There has been no evidence of Barbara Thomas located on previous days."
Did ^ stmt refer only to what LE & SAR team located during those searches? if so, answer is - Nothing.
Stmt 2. On the other hand, the case detective told our VI that RT's photos confirmed that BT had been where and when he said she was. ... reasonable inference that it was in the area near Kelbaker/Hidden Hill where SAR was searching.

Do stmt 1 and stmt 2 in black actually contradict each other?
One possibility is no contradiction, because ---
Stmt 1 refers to evd LE & SAR team located during searches, i.e. nothing.
Stmt 2 refers to evd - pix RT provided/showed to LE before search even began (my assumption about when RT showed pix); the pix were not located by LE.
That is one way to interpret the two stmts as not conflicting.
jmo as a possibility.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---
ETA: just read back, saw post by @wary saying - ( my paraphrasing)
pix were not part of the search, so were not mentioned as evd of finding her. Thank you @wary for succinctly saying what my loooong post says).
ETA 2: And ]@10ofRods[/B], Thank you as well, for getting same idea across.

 

[LietKynes]

It is entirely possible that RT showed LE photos of Barbara in that specific desert; just not where he was when he called 911.
Without a specialist who could definitively pinpoint the location of the photos ---they could've been taken that day, just not at that location.

I think it was MassGuy who posted in an earlier BT thread that the story of the man fishing was found to be false , as the shadows showed the pics were taken later in the day.

 

[LAhiker]

@LAhiker Thanks for your post, w bbm, sbm, and some thoughts in red, in your post.
LAhiker post in black.
Stmt 1... after the search, the sheriff's office said ""There has been no evidence of Barbara Thomas located on previous days."
Did ^ stmt refer only to what LE & SAR team located during those searches? if so, answer is - Nothing.
Stmt 2. On the other hand, the case detective told our VI that RT's photos confirmed that BT had been where and when he said she was. ... reasonable inference that it was in the area near Kelbaker/Hidden Hill where SAR was searching.

Do stmt 1 and stmt 2 in black actually contradict each other?
One possibility is no contradiction, because ---
Stmt 1 refers to evd LE & SAR team located during searches, i.e. nothing.
Stmt 2 refers to evd - pix RT provided/showed to LE before search even began (my assumption about when RT showed pix); the pix were not located by LE.
That is one way to interpret the two stmts as not conflicting.
jmo as a possibility.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---
ETA: just read back, saw post by @wary saying - ( my paraphrasing)
pix were not part of the search, so were not mentioned as evd of finding her. Thank you @wary for succinctly saying what my loooong post says).
ETA 2: And ]@10ofRods[/B], Thank you as well, for getting same idea across.

@al66pine, thanks for your analysis. I realize that I may not have been very clear. I wasn't saying that there's necessarily a contradiction between LE's statement that they found no evidence in their own searches of the area and LE's statement to the VI that RT's photos showed that he and BT were there when he said. I agree that the statements can be about two different things and don't necessarily conflict as statements.

But when I accept both statements as true and think about the reality behind them, I'm led to the following question. If those photos do show that RT & BT were there then (and if "there" means on that path and near those rocks), why didn't the searchers and dogs find any evidence of her there, even in the areas that RT's statements and photos would've shown her to be?

The simplest answer is that the conditions weren't good for dogs or searchers. It was too hot for the dogs to sniff efficiently and the desert hardpan wouldn't show her footprints (or that any prints were obscured by those of the searchers). In other words, even if the photos showed she was there, she may have left no trace that SAR could find. But as I mentioned in my post, there are other possibilities. JMO

 

[LAhiker]

It is entirely possible that RT showed LE photos of Barbara in that specific desert; just not where he was when he called 911.
Without a specialist who could definitively pinpoint the location of the photos ---they could've been taken that day, just not at that location.

I think it was MassGuy who posted in an earlier BT thread that the story of the man fishing was found to be false , as the shadows showed the pics were taken later in the day.

That makes sense, but if the photos were digital, their metadata should've given an indication of the location (and time) of each photo, assuming that metadata hadn't been altered in some way. I don't know whether the photos were digital.

JMO

 

[bronbaby]

with regards to GPS on a mobile phone, apart from satellites, I think it may be recorded only if there is cell tower triangulation. i don't know if people can receive a signal on mobile phones in the Mojave Desert. is it know where RT phoned Police? i cannot recall that piece of information, only that RT made a call to L.E
IMO