CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[Sparkyswife]

It's a 28MB PDF file so I can't attach it, here's a link to download it:

http://www.websleuths.com/cases/harrod/AHDepoWS.pdf

For those who couldn't download the pdf before, be patient. It is a large file and takes quite a while to download. It may look as though nothing is happening, but it is.

 

[zwiebel]

For those who couldn't download the pdf before, be patient. It is a large file and takes quite a while to download. It may look as though nothing is happening, but it is.

Thanks for the tip, Sparkyswife!

Do you think it strange that AH waited for LE to arrive before checking on Bob, even though he lived so close? Upthread, GrainneDhu posted about what she did the moment a colleague failed to show for work - that's more the sort of thing I would have expected a loving grandson to do.

 

[SuziQ]

The brief glimpse I got of the map looked like all the pharmacies were clustered around Placentia itself. I'll definitely post it tomorrow.

Son might well have helped Dad with his repairs - lifting heavy things like toilets are always easier and quicker with two. And he lived so close.

Dad could easily have dropped in on Bob's to finish what son started.......correction. NOT finish, he never returned to the house after that day, did he? Despite the note he left saying he'd come back to finish up.

By the way, I hate to disagree with you Cubby, but I haven't felt the need for a spreadsheet at all yet. For example, I can do SIL's publicly stated timeline in a single line:

JeM:

:floorlaugh:

 

[zwiebel]

Thanks, SuziQ, glad you got it!

 

[Cubby]

Something about AH's comment that Bob had cash he wanted to invest doesn't sit right with me. He made it sound as if Bob approached him regarding refinancing the property on Windflower versus the other way around.

It never sat right with me that Bob would be actively looking to invest his cash rather than being done with that at his age. Seems like something a much younger person would do. That's why I just couldn't imagine not having a forensic accountant go back 5-10 years with Bob's finances. Something is just not right and I can't help but be concerned that Bob disappeared to keep him from uncovering possible illegal happenings when he went to add his new wife to his estate planning.

Protecting AH would definately make sense as to why the SIL has remained silent despite his wife and sister in laws anguish......

In fact, hypothetically, the sil and AH being the only two to know the full truth seems to be the only logical possible explanation here, imo.

AH made it pretty damn clear he knew his grandfather was deceased immediately upon his disappearance with his own wording in the depo. I don't buy his talk about picking the wrong side and apologizing to Mrs. Harrod. It's a load of crap imo solely out of animosity that he wasn't profiting in the same manner his aunts were after Bob's disappearance. I think he really believed he could play upon Mrs. Harrod's pity. I don't trust him. I don't trust either the SIL or AH.

 

[zwiebel]

Sparkyswife, you rock for transcribing parts of the transcript!

Reading it all again, I've got to say I think there was a point in these family dynamics where everything was within an inch of imploding, but AH took the dirty dollar. He was paid off, and his silence was bought. It was all about the money. Always was.
Trouble is, I think he's backed the wrong side. I think there's big trouble coming and no amount of money is going to make up for it....JMO

By the way, did anyone notice this, was it as chuckle inducing as I thought it was? Sorry if it's not, but that kind of thing just really appeals to English sensibilities. Mr Algorri gets my vote too!*
It followed a short exchange where AH's Counsel jumped in to object to her own client's answer. He said his residence was transferred back to his aunts, when he should have said to the trust (ummm, yeah).

Mr Algorri: Counsel, you're coaching the witness. And I appreciate that.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Something about AH's comment that Bob had cash he wanted to invest doesn't sit right with me. He made it sound as if Bob approached him regarding refinancing the property on Windflower versus the other way around.

It never sat right with me that Bob would be actively looking to invest his cash rather than being done with that at his age. Seems like something a much younger person would do. That's why I just couldn't imagine not having a forensic accountant go back 5-10 years with Bob's finances. Something is just not right and I can't help but be concerned that Bob disappeared to keep him from uncovering possible illegal happenings when he went to add his new wife to his estate planning.

Protecting AH would definately make sense as to why the SIL has remained silent despite his wife and sister in laws anguish......

In fact, hypothetically, the sil and AH being the only two to know the full truth seems to be the only logical possible explanation here, imo.

AH made it pretty damn clear he knew his grandfather was deceased immediately upon his disappearance with his own wording in the depo. I don't buy his talk about picking the wrong side and apologizing to Mrs. Harrod. It's a load of crap imo solely out of animosity that he wasn't profiting in the same manner his aunts were after Bob's disappearance. I think he really believed he could play upon Mrs. Harrod's pity. I don't trust him. I don't trust either the SIL or AH.

BBM

Covering up illegal transactions would, to me, be an even stronger motive than simply wanting to secure Bob's money (via the trust).

Also, I find the whole "should I consult a lawyer" exchange with Mr Algorri odd, to say the least. As reported, it sounds almost as if AH was circling around a confession of sorts.

Whether that involves a confession to actual wrongdoing or to being an accessory before or after the fact, I cannot tell.

 

[zwiebel]

GrainneDhu, am I having another transatlantic misunderstanding? Because AH seems to say he took out two or three loans (not from Bob) secured on a house already 'mortgaged' to Bob.
That would be totally impossible in England, unless a person lied to the lender. You can't raise loans on a property already mortgaged to another party.

 

[Cubby]

GrainneDhu, am I having another transatlantic misunderstanding? Because AH seems to say he took out two or three loans (not from Bob) secured on a house already 'mortgaged' to Bob.
That would be totally impossible in England, unless a person lied to the lender. You can't raise loans on a property already mortgaged to another party.

I think it depends on how the mortgage provided by Bob was filed.... would other lenders see the property was already mortgaged by Bob? Could AH juggle various lenders? I'd have to take a closer look again at AH's deposition, and he wasn't very forthcoming. The lack of wishing to be transparent when it comes to Bob's disappearance is concerning. Very concerning.

 

[zwiebel]

Cubby, wish I had just five, maybe ten minutes to be a fly on the wall. To be inside LE's office when they had finished up talking to all the family members, the BL, and the CL.
When they sat down and discussed that timeline, that heated/not heated family meeting/fighting.
There is at least one person who knows for sure what happened to Bob. But I think the rest of us have a pretty good idea.
Myself, I'm certain now he's buried out in that beautiful Californian landscape somewhere.

 

[zwiebel]

Mr Algorri asked for a 'dirty copy and a certified copy' of the secret settlement in due course. What on earth is a dirty copy?

 

[GrainneDhu]

GrainneDhu, am I having another transatlantic misunderstanding? Because AH seems to say he took out two or three loans (not from Bob) secured on a house already 'mortgaged' to Bob.
That would be totally impossible in England, unless a person lied to the lender. You can't raise loans on a property already mortgaged to another party.

In the US, it depends on the amount left on the mortgage relative to the market value of the property. For example, say you have a great credit record, own a house that is mortgaged and the amount left on the mortgage is $10K. The market value of the house is $200K. Most lenders would not have a problem with issuing a second mortgage for less than $165K (assuming leaving equity in place of 25% plus the $10K left on the first mortgage).

It does seem a bit odd that he was able to get more than one more loan, though. Unless perhaps he paid off each second mortgage before taking out the next. Or maybe each mortgage was for a tiny amount relative to the equity in the property.

Cubby would know more about it than I do. All I know about banks and mortgages is summed up as "don't do it." Save your money and pay upfront so that you don't have things like loans hanging over your head.

 

[LostOldUserName]

Mr Algorri asked for a 'dirty copy and a certified copy' of the secret settlement in due course. What on earth is a dirty copy?

A dirty copy is a copy that has been marked upon (for instance what I would call a first draft of a paper that has proof reading marks on it)

 

[zwiebel]

In the US, it depends on the amount left on the mortgage relative to the market value of the property. For example, say you have a great credit record, own a house that is mortgaged and the amount left on the mortgage is $10K. The market value of the house is $200K. Most lenders would not have a problem with issuing a second mortgage for less than $165K (assuming leaving equity in place of 25% plus the $10K left on the first mortgage).

It does seem a bit odd that he was able to get more than one more loan, though. Unless perhaps he paid off each second mortgage before taking out the next. Or maybe each mortgage was for a tiny amount relative to the equity in the property.

Cubby would know more about it than I do. All I know about banks and mortgages is summed up as "don't do it." Save your money and pay upfront so that you don't have things like loans hanging over your head.

That's sound advice GrainneDhu, but it doesn't work for the poor kids in England. I left an area where the average wage was about £12,000 a year, and the average (tiny) house was about £200,000. And rentals were expensive, few and far between and looked down upon as a bit second rate. Most on 6 month contracts too. Young people wanting to get a home and start a family are looking at either begging or borrowing just to allow themselves to get a huge mortgage for the rest of their working lives, or saving up and waiting to start a family when they are, ummm, about 60?

 

[zwiebel]

A dirty copy is a copy that has been marked upon (for instance what I would call a first draft of a paper that has proof reading marks on it)

Thank you, LostOldUserName. Sorry to bug you but, any idea why someone would request a copy like that?

 

[Cubby]

In general as I've been out of the RE market a few years now, is a borrower could get an 80% first mortgage and avoid paying mortgage insurance by getting a second mortage at a higher interest rate when they could not put down 20%. Sometimes 100% financing was available via 2 10% mortgages and 1 80% mortgage.


I can't say that was the case with AH and the loans he was talking about in his depo as he was all over the place with what he actually remembered.

I'll try and take another look at the depo again later these evening or within the next few days. There does seem to possibly be something off with regards to how many mortgages AH had and with whom.

 

[Cubby]

If we get something a little more specific, I might bug my sons godfather with the questions regarding AH's ability to secure mortgage financing. He's a loan officer and has been in the bus. about 20 years. He and his associates would certainly have far better info than I would in this current market.

 

[Cubby]

Excerpt AH deposition, partial transcript pages 49, 50 & 51, answers by AH.

9. Q. Do you recall telling me in the course of that
10. conversation that your aunts, as trustees, were doing
11. some things that did not sit well with you?
12. A. Yes.
13. Q. What did you mean by that?
14. A. I meant that I didn't believe that they were
15. following through with the intentions my grandfather
16. had.
17. Q. What is your understanding of the intentions
18. your grandfather had?
19. A. That my note was to be forgiven upon his death
20. or --
21. Q. At that time do you recall telling me that
22. they were threatening to take the house from you?
23. A. Yes.
24. Q. And do you recall telling me that you were
25. angry that your aunts had quit their jobs once they had

Page 51

1. been appointed trustees of the estate?
2. A. I don't recall that, no. I -- no, I don't
3. recall.
4. Q. Give me one second here, please.

Respectfully snipped. BEBM.

"That my note was to be forgiven upon his death".

And here AH is angry someone is trying to collect on his note. What led him to believe his grandfather was deceased within days, DAYS, of his disappearance?

 

[zwiebel]

Respectfully snipped. BEBM.

"That my note was to be forgiven upon his death".

And here AH is angry someone is trying to collect on his note. What led him to believe his grandfather was deceased within days, DAYS, of his disappearance?

With the stuff that Jum and AH have come out with, it's no wonder JeM decided to keep his mouth shut.

I can't make head nor tail of US mortgage deals, by the way.........

 

[LostOldUserName]

Thank you, LostOldUserName. Sorry to bug you but, any idea why someone would request a copy like that?

Maybe to see if there were any notes made by anyone that would indicate their understanding of the document??? I am guessing here