CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #1

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margarita25 said:
I think this is exactly where Elisa was in the video (15th floor), judging from the tile and walls. I think she went out that exit to the left (you can see the exit sign on the bottom photo indicating there is an exit to the left.)

Well, I guess there's nothing else I can contribute at this point until we get the cod and tox report. I am as baffled by this video after watching it for the 50th time, as I was watching it the first time. I have a different opinion every time, lol. Upon this last viewing of the video, I see absolutely no evidence of another person nearby. Like you all, I have examined every reflection and second of this video. I don't see anything.

Wait a minute...could Elisa have been suddenly acting like she was crazy to scare the person away? I give up.

R.I.P. Elisa. May your family find strength and comfort.

The good thing is that there are registration records of every person staying in the hotel, as well as staff records, and cameras at the hotel entrance.

Good luck sleuthing, I'll be checking to see if there have been any epiphanies!!
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That's right!
15 it is!
14 it is not!
 
sillybilly said:
If she went in alive, given an 8 to 10 ft tank 3/4 full, with no ladders inside, i'm pretty sure she would have drowned before she ever died of exposure. While the ME may know that she drowned as cause of death, he/she will try to determine manner of death being homicide (simply meaning caused by man, not necessarily murder), accidental, natural, suicide, or undetermined. He/she may have already made a determination of drowning, but couldn't determine whether she drowned accidentally or was drowned by someone else. Perhaps toxicology can help in that determination.

i.e. cause of death could be drowning, but if toxicology showed large amounts of sleeping pills in her system, and sleeping pills were found in her room, the manner of death might be recorded as suicide or accidental. If GHB was found, they might categorize it as homicide.

MOO
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Well that's the problem - the ME didn't have COD, and if she drowned, he should have. I'm familiar with COD and MOD. MOD wasn't mentioned at all in any of the articles I read, and I was searching for it.

If she'd taken an overdose, it should have shown up in her initial tox reports from the blood tests today. They're back very quickly.

The lack of a COD under these circumstances is making me lean towards homicide. I was just trying to think of what could have caused her death in a suicide or accident under these circumstances that would not have given the ME a COD today, and exposure is the only possibility I could think of, and I'm not even sure of that.

What it comes down to is that if she didn't drown or die of exposure, then she was already deceased when she went into the tank, and that means someone put her in there, and that most likely means homicide.

Barring someone finding her dead from a COD that oddly didn't show up today, and then putting her in the tank rather than calling 911, and that would be a longshot.

There's a case of a young woman, I think her name is Celena Cass, who was found in water, and they never did get a COD on her. They did get a MOD of homicide due to the circumstances, but I can't remember if they had that right away or if it wasn't until after the final tox results came back. I'm going to try to find it.
 
wilbee said:
wow 6-8 weeks is a helluva lot of time considering modern technology. I'm not in this field. can anyone in the related field advise if 6-8 weeks is the fastest they can go in 2013?

or would this just be filed as another normal routine case where you take your number and wait in line to be tested..........
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I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but I watched Dr. G, Medical Examiner a lot and from what I understand, tox reports take a long time because they have to be cultured and that needs to develop in it's own time in it's own way. Even if they make the tests a priority, it still take the development time to get the results. IMO.
 
Anyone know why we are so certain the woman in the video is Elisa?
 
The Cheese said:
If Elisa killed herself or fell in the tank then her COD would have been drowning, right? She'd have had to have been alive to get into the tank. Then she would have to drown.

The only other COD I can think of from suicide or falling in the tank would be possibly exposure if it was cold that night? Fell in and couldn't get out because there are no ladders inside, and died of exposure?

I'm just thinking if she drowned, there should have been a COD today. So I'm trying to think if it wasn't homicide what other COD should they have.

Does anyone know how a ME would tell if someone died of exposure? I can look it up but I had noticed a few nurses posting in the thread earlier.

Thanks for any info!
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:seeya: Nurse here......but as you can see by my name I'm a labor and delivery RN and have spent most of my career there. I'm afraid I'm of very little use when it comes to information regarding exposure. Now you have me curious though....I may look it up as well.
 
Chorley8 said:
Anyone know why we are so certain the woman in the video is Elisa?
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I guess I'm not 100% sure, but because police released the video and asked for help, I think they must have shown the video to Elisa's family for I.D. before releasing.
 
Found this other video, of what I believe is the Cecil Hotel ( 5th floor ), even though the title says 'Stay Hotel', the floor tile, and dog painting on the wall is just like the Cecil's.

You can start watching from the 02:30 mark:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unge9Zja8aY"]Stay Hotel Downtown Los Angeles CA - YouTube[/ame]

Watch on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unge9Zja8aY&feature=player_embedded#!
 
Chorley8 said:
Clear attempt to make her look crazy. Clear attempt to dehumanize her cf. the incessant comments interviews and videos now about the supposedly repulsive drinking water. Almost certain LE is going to wash their hands of the case. 6-8 weeks now to get things to die down. Then will probably come back with more inconclusives. No I don't know why she is being treated in this inhumane fashion. Elements of xenophobia, racism misogynism primitive understandings of mental health - some other purpose or some reason unknown to avoid the obvious conclusion of homicide - no idea what is going on.
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I'm totally with you on this one (first time poster, long time lurker by the way!). The media and those intrigued by the case are grasping at straws to rationalise what happened - perhaps optimism - which, in itself, is incredibly damaging. To bring in the matters of mental health or drug use are not of concern for Elisa, but rather, are born of ignorance and sensationalist thinking. It makes the case more interesting, sure, but is it helping anyone? If anything, it's making a whole lot of people feel really uncomfortable, and sets a terrible precedent for future cases - if I went missing, would the seriousness of it be dampened because I have records detailing my mental health history?

There, too, is an uncomfortable amount of victim blaming behaviour occurring, with spectators querying why someone who has had mental health problems would have gone on a holiday: as someone with bipolar, I can say that we're not all completely unstable and (lo and behold) capable of enjoying some time away from our regular place of residence. It is dehumanising, and I think a lot of people would rather chalk it up to a "psychotic/schizophrenic episode" based on how their aunt's friend's grandmother had psychosis and she did the same thing with her hands or whatever. All we can say about her, going by her Tumblr, is that she was a shy girl with a bipolar diagnosis that could have been current or outdated. The only relevance of this is how it may have shaped her reaction to anything occurring outside of that elevator. Any interpretation of her posts or implication that her mental state was linked to them is a bunk theory: her Tumblr looks like that of any girl my age who likes photography, art, fashion and is a bit of an "outsider" for lack of a better term. Her posting of imagery showing tall buildings and people outside them is as related to her death as my Tumblr posts with a reposted joke image of someone grilling meat on the side of a shopping trolley indicates I'm into BBQ food. She could have related to it, but there are so many ways in which a human with complex emotions can respond to a picture.

On the point of the elevator, I think the most important thing is what we can't hear. Any video of a person trying to communicate with someone will come across as completely bizarre once you've removed sound. Take away any trace of the 'other' person, leaving only one party, and you have something totally incomprehensible to most people. We need to keep that in mind when critically observing any information drawn from the elevator video. There are so many possibilities for her behaviour - someone may have told her to stand in view of the camera and 'act crazy'; they could be hiding around a corner and talking to her; or perhaps she can see someone in the mirror opposite the elevator - and I think the most basic interpretations of "she's insane" or "she's on drugs" would more likely be red herrings. Her hand movements are a little too stereotypically "crazy" (i.e. what you would do if a stranger said "act crazy!"), and if she were on drugs then things would be a little different (E/pills/MDMA would have her running up and down the stairs to burn the excess energy or jumping/dancing all over the place, teeth grinding with jaw chewing motions; LSD/hallucinogens would have her laughing to the point of tears and she would hardly be able to walk).

So, to conclude my first post, I must reiterate that the vital key is not what we consider to be inside her head, but rather what lies beyond the view of the elevator CCTV. For the 'other party' in her conversation to not appear in the footage (the avoidance of the area surrounding the elevator door - how did they know what the lens could see, i.e. lens width/focal length?), and for her to act in such a forced and contrived manner with an element of genuine fear or worry in her mannerisms, creates many, many questions. I only hope for the sake for her memory, family and friends that this is resolved swiftly.

(Edit: wow, sorry, what an essay! I've been ruminating over the finer points of this for days, I guess I have a lot to say - let me know if it's too long and I'll delete/edit it :))
 
Hazel said:
In this video, manager of bookstore around the corner of the hotel, says Elisa was at the store January 31st., buying records and presents. She says she didn't seem odd at all, was very outgoing, very lively, very friendly.
Elisa Lam Autopsy deferred: Body Found in Hotel Water Tank, Coroner Says More Tests Needed - YouTube
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So the man in this video is toughing it out...???

He must be between a rock and a hard place to have to remain in the hotel.

Absolutely tarabull.
 
:welcome4: littlekitten

Excellent points!

Thanks for joining us!
 
Hazel said:
In this video, manager of bookstore around the corner of the hotel, says Elisa was at the store January 31st., buying records and presents. She says she didn't seem odd at all, was very outgoing, very lively, very friendly.
Elisa Lam Autopsy deferred: Body Found in Hotel Water Tank, Coroner Says More Tests Needed - YouTube
Click to expand...


The guyin the video, Alvin Taylor, is a known sex offender that lives in the building. There are at least 2 known sex offenders registered with the Cecil hotel as their address. I believe one is on the 10th floor and another is on the 7th. There have been others but cannot confirm they still reside here. As soon as I saw the video I knew it was the same guy.


http://www.sorarchives.com/offender/view/1072663
 
The Cheese said:
Well that's the problem - the ME didn't have COD, and if she drowned, he should have. I'm familiar with COD and MOD. MOD wasn't mentioned at all in any of the articles I read, and I was searching for it.

If she'd taken an overdose, it should have shown up in her initial tox reports from the blood tests today. They're back very quickly.

The lack of a COD under these circumstances is making me lean towards homicide. I was just trying to think of what could have caused her death in a suicide or accident under these circumstances that would not have given the ME a COD today, and exposure is the only possibility I could think of, and I'm not even sure of that.

What it comes down to is that if she didn't drown or die of exposure, then she was already deceased when she went into the tank, and that means someone put her in there, and that most likely means homicide.

Barring someone finding her dead from a COD that oddly didn't show up today, and then putting her in the tank rather than calling 911, and that would be a longshot.

There's a case of a young woman, I think her name is Celena Cass, who was found in water, and they never did get a COD on her. They did get a MOD of homicide due to the circumstances, but I can't remember if they had that right away or if it wasn't until after the final tox results came back. I'm going to try to find it.
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It's not always that cut and dried in the case of drowning. MEs and pathologists are limited by what the body is prepared to give up. If the COD is inconclusive, then perhaps the toxicology will change that.

For those so inclined, a good read on the forensics of drowning:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...XFAZZd&sig=AHIEtbRVSN7s2xJy6wj33UZfi6Nj7S2BsA

10. There are no autopsy findings pathonomonic of drowning. Consequently, obtaining proof that the victim was alive on entering the water, and excluding the presence of natural, traumatic and toxicological causes of death, are critically important. Some pathological changes are characteristic of drowning, but the diagnosis is largely one of exclusion.
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This is the 'crazy' video that was posted earlier by Tarabull, which shows same 5th floor as per my previous post #857 ( [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8908174&postcount=857"]link[/ame] ) (dog painting), and also floorss 6 & 7.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY2kiP8FVOY"]Cecil hotel tour - YouTube[/ame]
 
Hello everyone! Great board you have here Im very happy to have stumbled upon it.

I've watched this video just under 300,000 times now (not quite) as im sure the rest of u have and id like to share some thoughts. THis is my breakdown step by step what happens.

-Enters the elevator.
-Not on drugs, shes nervous..slightly frightened... but attempting to play it cool.
-Suspects someone or multiple people to be nearby and seems in a rush to get out of there
-It appears someone to the right of the elevator is originally causing her concern (hence why she hides on that side of the elevator)
-After a couple peaks outside someone from the left startles her and gets her attention (most likely a guy who just followed her close enough to hit the elevator button to keep the door open)
-She shares an exchange outside the elevator with this person and as well with what seems like someone on the right side
-During this time Elisa is very expressive and seemingly nervous. It appears to me that shes expressing innocence thru her hands and actions. Like a no no I didnt see anything or I wasnt in there.
-Elisa reenters the elevator this time seeming quite frantic pressing all the buttons with more urgency
-After trying to get the elevator going and failing she exits the elevator to the left where whoever she is talking with is located.
-There is a short exchange until Elisa is seen exiting left (apparently with her hands up)

End

There's a gun involved I'm almost sure. Im fairly certain this girl saw something that she wasnt supposed to, which caused her panic in the first place. Theres a point in the movie where shes explaining herself to somebody or two people. Her gestures are of someone who is scared and nervous and not of someone trying to be playful. Shes trying to reason with them. You can see her trying to play it cool tho too which makes me think that the killer was playing it cool and almost smug like "you're stuck, the door wont close.. come with me".

What did Elisa Lam witness? Whats going on on that top floor of the cecil? Maybe the whole floor is crips and the hotel doesnt want to admit it? The police need to get in there and figure out what she saw.

Also they might as well release more footage of the elevators.

Anyway awesome site! thanks :)
 
I've watched the elevator video over and over. While Elisa looks calm when she first enters the elevator, I think something must have happened that unnerved her and she's wanting to get away. Maybe she'd been exploring the hotel out of curiosity and just has a creepy feeling about it because it seems deserted. But, where are her eyeglasses? I first thought she was probably wearing contacts because there are pictures of her without glasses. As everyone has noted, though, she appears to have difficulty reading the panel buttons. So, what happened to her eyeglasses? Did she set them down for a moment and they mysteriously disappeared? If she had gone to the restroom near her room to wash her face, she likely would've left them in her room. If that restroom was in use, might she have gone to another floor, even without her eyeglasses? Maybe there was someone lurking around her floor who made her uneasy.

In Tarabull's post up-thread that Magarita25 re-posted, showing the hallways on the 15th floor, I noticed that the direction from which Elisa approached and walked away from the elevator was opposite the exit sign, which would indicate the stairs. Probably, Elisa had taken the elevator to that floor and perhaps didn't know the location of the stairs. I still cannot determine all of the buttons Elisa punched on the panel, other than the 4th, 7th, 10th and 14th floors. I think she notices that the door starts to close and then opens again. That's why she warily steps outside and takes a quick peek in the hallway, thinking (IMO) that someone hit the button on the wall outside the elevator. That's when she acts spooked.

Elisa seems to be leery of staying inside the elevator, but I think she just doesn't know what to do. The person on the hotel website who commented on the doors being locked specified (IIRC) that they were locked at night. If they were kept locked during the daytime, too, Elisa probably knew that, or may not have known where the stairs were located. When she steps back in the elevator, she looks frustrated to me. She has her hands on her head. I think the reason she placed her hands on the sides of the elevator was to make sure the doors didn't close on her. I've done that many times when I step onto an elevator.

Also, I agree with the poster who said they thought Elisa was dancing toward the end of the video. It does appear to me she was sort of dancing and stretching at the same time, a sign that she was nervous about her situation, perhaps. I've stretched my arms, moved my hands an fingers around when I'm waiting impatiently, bored or deeply agitated.

Why didn't Elisa try the other elevator? I wonder if maybe she did, briefly, with no more success, but the video from that elevator wasn't released because there's nothing helpful on it, or maybe it wasn't working. So, I just wonder what happened after poor Elisa walked away from the elevators and in the opposite direction of the stairs.

ETA: I found the comment about the doors to the stairwells being locked at night. It's in the expedia reviews: http://www.expedia.co.nz/Los-Angeles-Hotels-Cecil-Hotel.h920349-p22.Hotel-Reviews
 
I'll never understand why people feel the need to zoom in on toilets.
 
Also, judging from Hazel's 5th floor video, it shows the kitchen to the left of the elevator, showers to the right of the elevator, assuming the layout is similar on each floor, which I would assume it to be.

Hmmmm, so if she entered from the left, maybe she was in the kitchen? If she was eating or drinking there with someone else, that could have been an opportunity to drug her. I wonder if she left anything in that fridge? Leftovers? How long does it take for GHB to take effect?

Do we know for sure that she didn't wear contacts?
 
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