CA CA - Elizabeth Short 'Black Dahlia', 22, Los Angeles, 15 Jan 1947

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jokar said:
Any thoughts on this anyone? This murder was specially brutal - I really hate injustice and I feel badly that this poor woman's killer was never brought to justice.
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I researched her case quite a bit and see it often tied to the Cleveland Torso Murders in the 1930's. Did you see any link here in the forums where there is a discussion about those murders? I am new and cannot search. If you could message the link (if you know it) I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you
 
Sorry if I'm repeating/rehashing anything here. Every now and again, I need to get my head back into what is actually known about the case, and think about what that tells us about the killer.

----Elizabeth was missing for several days prior to her body being found.
--- Her body was drained of blood and washed clean, somewhere other than the discovery site.
--- There is evidence that Elizabeth was tortured for some time prior to her death.
-- Her body was transported to the discovery site. We must assume by wheeled vehicle - car, pickup, van.

This all tells me:

-- The killer had access to private space in a building with running water, for at least a week.
-- The actual crime scene was somewhere secure to the killer, somewhere he could keep and torture his victim and then deal with her remains, without interruption.
-- The kill site was somewhere her screams would go unheard.
-- The killer had access to a vehicle.
-- The killer could load Elizabeth's body into this vehicle without being seen.

Looking at her body and taking into account the parcel sent to police containing her personal effects:

-- The killer was quite comfortable with depraved and cruel acts of torture and dismemberment. Not many people are. This guy was, completely, comfortable with it.
-- This was not a sudden, frenzied crime -- everything about it seems very controlled.
-- The killer took great care with details in the posing. They had some significance to him, or he'd not have taken the time/risk.
-- The killer was invested in profoundly humiliating his victim.
-- The killer was proud of his work, he felt powerful and secure enough to taunt police. Possibly, he was attempting to divert attention from himself, though.

^ And all this is why I tend to tend to think her killer was not living a life of transient poverty in seedy hotels.

This all suggests free access to a privately owned, secure site -- the killer was not at all interrupted through the entire, horrendous and bloody murder, and subsequent washing of the body, let alone whatever he did to her in the days prior to her death. He had running water, too, which derelict buildings often do not have. So, logically, it is more likely to be a private work or living space, in which the killer felt secure enough to keep and torture and kill his victim. He had expectations of privacy there. This was his kingdom, so to speak. I think it's probably his own home unless he had some kind of work space that no-one else visited and/or which he could easily close down for a few days.

-- Elizabeth's body was the direct opposite of 'concealed' - it was carefully and deliberately posed in an open area surrounded by occupied homes.
-- The killer felt secure enough to take the time to not only remove her body from his vehicle at this location, but spend some time with the body at the site as well, enough to commit multiple acts of posing.

^ This suggests to me:

-- That the killer was heavily invested in the body being found and seen in its humiliating, shocking state. He was making a point, here.
-- The killer likely parked very close by.
-- The killer very likely either knew the area and the habits of the people in it, or scoped it out prior to the dumping of the body. He needed somewhere he could make his point, in a publicly accessible place, where he could feel secure in taking the necessary time with the body.

I don't think this killer was down at heel, living in cheap rented places. I think he had a home and a vehicle and felt secure in using them for this crime. I don't think he was seriously delusional, there's too much control shown. I think he was a stone cold sociopath, one who was comfortable with torture and mutilation and handling body parts to boot, comfortable in humiliating his victim even after her death. While he might have a superficially charming exterior as many sociopaths do, in this case I highly doubt anyone close to him, knowing him for an extended period like family members, old school pals, workmates, would remain wholly oblivious to the truth of his nature. He was either an utter loner, living away from family -- or he wasn't, so there could be people who not only know he's a sociopath, but noticed absences and other telling behaviours around that time.

While it's tempting to assume there must be other crimes, and think of him a serial killer (which would increase the chance of him being identified, eventually) this really could have been his one and only, a fantasy played out that he could enjoy for many years to come thanks to the media furore, which he well and truly fuelled. Though I very highly doubt it was his only act of violence and cruelty against women.

Just touching base. Again, sorry if it's all been said before.
 
Thanks for the square-up Ausgirl.

Short was last seen, for certain, on January 9, a Thursday, and found on the morning of the following Wednesday, the 15, so we know that the murder is bracketed by those dates.

We don't know that she met her murderer right away-all we can say is that she was with him on the 15th and almost certainly the 14th.

I think that probably leaves out something like a warehouse or school since people would have been in there the 13th and 14th, Monday and Tuesday. It would have been very risky to do that unless he did everything on Tuesday evening after everyone went home.

As I recall, a mortuary has been posited and a church, theater or sports arena might be unoccupied from Sunday evening through the work week. Other than that, yes, there's not much I can think of other than a stand alone private home and even that would almost have to be in a rural area or at least on a very large plot of land. I think the sound-proof room thing is a bit too much out of detective novels.
 
Stan, what about a basement/cellar?

It's actually a bit of a myth that when horrendous murders happen in a home, in proximity to neighbours, that someone "must have" heard something.. I have sleuthed crimes where there's been multiple victims, a struggle and a sustained attack, and the home literally four feet from a neighbour, separated by just thin ply and a couple feet of open space --- no-one heard a thing. Though the neighbour's dog barked, no-one was woken by the sound of a struggle/screams.

I would imagine that a basement under a free standing house would offer natural soundproofing, also.
 
That may be true but could a killer be sure of that? I wouldn't want to risk it in that situation. Maybe he could have done a sound test, I suppose. I think we can pretty much exclude an apartment anyway. He would not stymie her screams, I don't think, because I imagine that was a source of pleasure for him.
 
It was someone familiar with police procedures - after all, he washed her items in petrol before sending them to police as a taunt.

A professional killer, maybe?

a mobster, perhaps?
 
Ausgirl said:
Sorry if I'm repeating/rehashing anything here. Every now and again, I need to get my head back into what is actually known about the case, and think about what that tells us about the killer.

----Elizabeth was missing for several days prior to her body being found.
--- Her body was drained of blood and washed clean, somewhere other than the discovery site.
--- There is evidence that Elizabeth was tortured for some time prior to her death.
-- Her body was transported to the discovery site. We must assume by wheeled vehicle - car, pickup, van.

This all tells me:

-- The killer had access to private space in a building with running water, for at least a week.
-- The actual crime scene was somewhere secure to the killer, somewhere he could keep and torture his victim and then deal with her remains, without interruption.
-- The kill site was somewhere her screams would go unheard.
-- The killer had access to a vehicle.
-- The killer could load Elizabeth's body into this vehicle without being seen.

Looking at her body and taking into account the parcel sent to police containing her personal effects:

-- The killer was quite comfortable with depraved and cruel acts of torture and dismemberment. Not many people are. This guy was, completely, comfortable with it.
-- This was not a sudden, frenzied crime -- everything about it seems very controlled.
-- The killer took great care with details in the posing. They had some significance to him, or he'd not have taken the time/risk.
-- The killer was invested in profoundly humiliating his victim.
-- The killer was proud of his work, he felt powerful and secure enough to taunt police. Possibly, he was attempting to divert attention from himself, though.

^ And all this is why I tend to tend to think her killer was not living a life of transient poverty in seedy hotels.

This all suggests free access to a privately owned, secure site -- the killer was not at all interrupted through the entire, horrendous and bloody murder, and subsequent washing of the body, let alone whatever he did to her in the days prior to her death. He had running water, too, which derelict buildings often do not have. So, logically, it is more likely to be a private work or living space, in which the killer felt secure enough to keep and torture and kill his victim. He had expectations of privacy there. This was his kingdom, so to speak. I think it's probably his own home unless he had some kind of work space that no-one else visited and/or which he could easily close down for a few days.

-- Elizabeth's body was the direct opposite of 'concealed' - it was carefully and deliberately posed in an open area surrounded by occupied homes.
-- The killer felt secure enough to take the time to not only remove her body from his vehicle at this location, but spend some time with the body at the site as well, enough to commit multiple acts of posing.

^ This suggests to me:

-- That the killer was heavily invested in the body being found and seen in its humiliating, shocking state. He was making a point, here.
-- The killer likely parked very close by.
-- The killer very likely either knew the area and the habits of the people in it, or scoped it out prior to the dumping of the body. He needed somewhere he could make his point, in a publicly accessible place, where he could feel secure in taking the necessary time with the body.

I don't think this killer was down at heel, living in cheap rented places. I think he had a home and a vehicle and felt secure in using them for this crime. I don't think he was seriously delusional, there's too much control shown. I think he was a stone cold sociopath, one who was comfortable with torture and mutilation and handling body parts to boot, comfortable in humiliating his victim even after her death. While he might have a superficially charming exterior as many sociopaths do, in this case I highly doubt anyone close to him, knowing him for an extended period like family members, old school pals, workmates, would remain wholly oblivious to the truth of his nature. He was either an utter loner, living away from family -- or he wasn't, so there could be people who not only know he's a sociopath, but noticed absences and other telling behaviours around that time.

While it's tempting to assume there must be other crimes, and think of him a serial killer (which would increase the chance of him being identified, eventually) this really could have been his one and only, a fantasy played out that he could enjoy for many years to come thanks to the media furore, which he well and truly fuelled. Though I very highly doubt it was his only act of violence and cruelty against women.

Just touching base. Again, sorry if it's all been said before.
Click to expand...

All that fits precisely with the George Hodel theory IMO
 
I think George Hodel is a pretty good suspect, if everything his son said is true.

I'd probably be more inclined to think so, if he hadn't also claimed his dad was the Zodiac and half a dozen other killers, too. He makes a lot of stretches.. but that doesn't mean I discount Hodel sr as a suspect in this case.

Man Ray was a really odd bird as well. I was reading some stuff about him the other day, I must hunt up the links when I get time. I immediately thought of Hodel and the Dahlia case as I read it.
 
re: Death of Elizabeth Short aka Black Dahlia. Has anyone noted the section of her thigh that was cut out? Does anyone know of a source on comparative studies of similar actions on mutilated bodies? I know of one case in Kansas City in 1941 where a section of a hip or thigh was cut out and then discarded as the killer made his get away. I am currently doing research about some similar killings in the 1940's and 1950's.
 
MarilynAHudson said:
re: Death of Elizabeth Short aka Black Dahlia. Has anyone noted the section of her thigh that was cut out? Does anyone know of a source on comparative studies of similar actions on mutilated bodies? I know of one case in Kansas City in 1941 where a section of a hip or thigh was cut out and then discarded as the killer made his get away. I am currently doing research about some similar killings in the 1940's and 1950's.
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The part of her thigh that was cut off was her tattoo. If I recall, the piece of her thigh was found inside her vagina
 
I've been doing a bit of research on the autopsy report and... well, things are strange. It was never officially released, and though several people claim to have a copy the official story is that it, along with many other case documents, has gone missing.

What we have are redacted excerpts - the info that was released, and which we see repeated all over as "the autopsy report" is a partial document that is missing several important details, held back by police to help ID the killer.

This is infuriating, as we now have no way of knowing fact from fiction. There's no mention of a tattoo, for example, in the report I can find. The chunk taken from her thigh is described as "large" and, if you look at the photos, it's a pretty large "wedge" that must have almost hit bone at its deepest point. However, the skin found in her vagina is described as a strip of skin with a little flesh adhering to it - and on it were "several crisscrossing lacerations." (No mention of a tattoo). The size discrepancy makes me wonder how they knew that skin came from her thigh... and not say, her breast or any other place where skin was missing. Also, what did the killer do with the rest of the thigh piece..

One thought I had, while reading up on all this, is -- I wonder if those bits of flesh were removed, to hide bite marks.. Just looking at where they are, the size of the pieces. Maybe...

Police at the scene described seeing a 'handful' of grass shoved into her vagina, so at least we can be pretty sure that is a real detail.
 
Facts vs. Fiction - unanswered
All the rumors and speculations about the murder - henna in Beth Short's hair, a tattoo, a "BD" carving in her leg - can't be answered, Carr said, because these are issues in which the answers have been "sealed" in the files since January 15, 1947, when the 22-year-old's body was found severed.

Carr had warned me a week before our interview that he wouldn't discuss any of the methods of operation (MO) of the killer, because doing so could damage the investigation. The "sealing" of particular facts, which are used to determine if a confessed killer or someone claiming to know who killed Beth Short, are still enclosed in a vacuum deep within the case files, to which only Carr has unlimited access. He may, from time to time, share some information with his partner, but Carr is careful about not letting vital case info leak to the press or public.

The detective said an autopsy report for Beth Short does exist, but that anyone requesting it "can't get a copy." In fact, the LAPD doesn't possess the report, which is instead kept at the coroner's office "under lock and key."

Other "confidential topics" Carr would not address include:

Was Beth Short cut in half while she was still alive?
Was she ever tied?
Was she unable to have "normal" intercourse?
Was she pregnant?
Was there grass forced into her vaginal area?

While Carr is open to solving the case, he's not expecting that to happen. And he said that the possibility of any portion of the case files being released while he's on the case is nonexistent.

http://www.bethshort.com/int-carr.php
 
So does he think we are going to arrest some 90-year-old man, put him on trial, get a conviction and send him to prison for "life" which would probably be about a year? Even if that could be done, it would be a colossal waste of money.
 
Yes arresting a 90yr old would seem futile. He will be haunted however, by what he did. I was going to question as to whether her killer was still at large. He did send letters did he not? to the investigators?
the whole murder case had a ripper/zodiac feel to it where the killer was toying with the police dept
 
I've been interested in this case for a long time. I've never thought either of the women in the Hodel album looked like ES, but they do resemble Anne Toth. She has the same nose, face shape, and eyebrows IMO.

hodel album.jpg
 

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Robin Hood said:
The cutting of the mouth like that was also called a 'Glasgow smile' in Scotland. The Kray twins in London were seen to do it to another gang member in the film 'The Krays'
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I know this is an old post, but I'm using it as a launching point. I noticed this as well. If it is indeed a true Glasgow smile then it seems it'd be a pretty big clue. Not that many people would know about it back then or how to achieve it (it's not just a single cut on each side but a small cut followed by a beating, the beating enlarging the cut, traditionally anyway).
 
So perplexing. So many theories which first seem right then not. Hodel's dad did it, except the photos don't show the BD and who can believe this guy pulled off the perfect crime in his spare time when he wasn't busy being the Zodiac Killer etc etc.

Harnlsch sounded convincing, except it's a conclusion without actual direct evidence of when, how and where the Alzheimer's challenged good doctor pulled it off. And what about his girlfriend? They were apparently inseparable, even cozily watching autopsy movies every night with a classical music background. Yet not a word of evidence or even conjecture supporting the girlfriend's involvement.

Then there's the BD Solution so derided by Harnisch. "And for the record there was no Burns" I think Hamlisch says on his website, without any supporting evidence or even theory. And the photo used in the Solution showing the supposed bf murderer with the BD is cropped by Hamlisch to exclude Maurice/Ed. But the Solution loses me with all the made up cryptogram bs. Still the managers id'd Maurice/Ed as being in their hotel with the BD at the crucial time.

And then the theory on the BD in Hollywood site about the killing taking place at the motel at 29th & Normandie with blood soaked clothes and bedding supposedly found, all while tying in the creep from the Florentine Gardens. Hmmmmm.

Please forgive the length and imprecision of my first post here. What a wonderful site this is.
 
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