Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #2

[cenazoic]

@LucyOso - try this:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/ca-fang-jin-47-flew-to-la-from-china-train-to-palm-springs-morongo-basin-22-jul-2023-w-john-root-fitzpatrick-55-fnd-dec-30-jul-‘23-2.692767/page-23#post-18566054

To that point,

It's the fact that JFR is sitting in the background, not helping her do whatever she's doing that I think says something about the relationship dynamic.

I don’t see this at all. I see a pile of clothes/blankets (? ) in the background that look vaguely humanlike, but that’s it.

In re: JRF’s skeletonized remains, is that likely to happen in 6-8 weeks in the desert (as opposed to mummification)?

 

[charminglane]

simple Q here- is the CA driver's license laminated? my state's is just paper and flooding severe enough to separate a skull and teeth would practically dissolve it. I do not understand not having clothing with the body- maybe the pictures in MSM are incomplete or not accurate. Clothing does not just disappear quickly. Seems not-like-an-accident and I do not understand the mobile home unlocked, the decomp, Fang missing. Maybe homicide and accident and flooding? I imagine they can tell if the truck was damaged by flooding or some other cause. Maybe there are sand washes and things are now buried?

My CA dl is laminated.
No clothing is very strange.

 

[AnyNameIWish]

A California DL is not paper at all, so it's not laminated, it's plastic with embossed date of birth across the photo and a magnetic stripe across the back. RealID or not, the quality is the same.

California DMV Begins Offering Federally Approved Real ID Drivers Licenses

Palm Desert, CA Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) across California began issuing the so-called real ID’s on Monday. A real ID is a federally approved drivers license or ident…

nbcpalmsprings.com

 

[I'm Nobody]

RE: JRF’s skeletonized remains?
Anyone know this? Have experience with this? @10ofRods?
How does a coroner/medical examiner determine the date of death when the body has been skeletonized? Is it based on best guess? Do they use the last known sighting date, reported missing date, or found date? There can be a huge difference in those dates, sometimes years. How close can they get to an actual date of death for JRF? What date do coroners put on the death certificate in these missing cases? OR does it say "unknown"?

Thanks.

Poking around the San Diego County website looking for answers.
"A Certified Copy of a death certificate is required to obtain death benefits, claim insurance proceeds, notify social security, or obtain other services related to an individual’s identity." Especially important for next of kin.
MOO

Death Certificate Request

 

[acutename]

@LucyOso - try this:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/ca-fang-jin-47-flew-to-la-from-china-train-to-palm-springs-morongo-basin-22-jul-2023-w-john-root-fitzpatrick-55-fnd-dec-30-jul-‘23-2.692767/page-23#post-18566054

To that point,


I don’t see this at all. I see a pile of clothes/blankets (? ) in the background that look vaguely humanlike, but that’s it.
periments
In re: JRF’s skeletonized remains, is that likely to happen in 6-8 weeks in the desert (as opposed to mummification)?

seems odd to me- maybe Rods knows better... I guess there are beetles and vultures, but here in more temperate areas I sometimes see animal carcasses persist for a long time and hair and nails etc do not just vanish. I did find one article with some experiments with carcasses that says that vultures can strip a body in 24 hrs and move parts around a great distance. (sorry for how callous this article is, but it is data)

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bits...d=DD28752D544C92A94FD60E56ADBC8940?sequence=1

 

[crhedBngr]

Can someone tell me what this location might be???

34°02'42.1"N 115°42'04.3"W · Morongo Unified School District, CA

Morongo Unified School District, CA

www.google.com

If I might respectfully ask--what is interesting about this particular location?

Just curious.

JMVHO.

 

[WalkingCircles]

RE: JRF’s skeletonized remains?
Anyone know this? Have experience with this? @10ofRods?
How does a coroner/medical examiner determine the date of death when the body has been skeletonized? Is it based on best guess? Do they use the last known sighting date, reported missing date, or found date? There can be a huge difference in those dates, sometimes years. How close can they get to an actual date of death for JRF? What date do coroners put on the death certificate in these missing cases? OR does it say "unknown"?

Thanks.

Poking around the San Diego County website looking for answers.
"A Certified Copy of a death certificate is required to obtain death benefits, claim insurance proceeds, notify social security, or obtain other services related to an individual’s identity." Especially important for next of kin.
MOO

Death Certificate Request

It would be a combination of date of last contact/sighting coupled with the wear on the bones/other items. Things like ligaments and other bone structures wear/degrade at different rates, which can probably provide a pretty good guess when factoring in weather and other natural elements, but I'd imagine there are variables at play. There are also some labs using spectroscopy, which is supposed to be quite accurate, but I don't know if that is widespread.

I'm not any kind of expert, FYI. just a pretty big reader on a lot of random topics.

 

[Dhighsmith]

RE: JRF’s skeletonized remains?
Anyone know this? Have experience with this? @10ofRods?
How does a coroner/medical examiner determine the date of death when the body has been skeletonized? Is it based on best guess? Do they use the last known sighting date, reported missing date, or found date? There can be a huge difference in those dates, sometimes years. How close can they get to an actual date of death for JRF? What date do coroners put on the death certificate in these missing cases? OR does it say "unknown"?

Thanks.

Poking around the San Diego County website looking for answers.
"A Certified Copy of a death certificate is required to obtain death benefits, claim insurance proceeds, notify social security, or obtain other services related to an individual’s identity." Especially important for next of kin.
MOO

Death Certificate Request

The Death Certificate usually contains date remains are discovered or date on Declaration of Death order issued by Judge. The Time of Death is determined by factors discovered during investigation (@10ofRods will naturally have the proper terminology).

This issue was ongoing topic of conversation in the Delphi case of Abby and Libby.

 

[tvscum]

We would need to know how far away the non-skull bones were found to have any clue as to whether animal scavenging is involved. There are mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes and badgers living in that state park, all of whom can smell decomp at more distance than humans can.

Animal scavenging is common, mainly coyotes IMO and even packs of coyotes. Animals could be responsible for separation of the skull and jawbone and the removal of flesh. Sorry to be so graphic.

McStay case:
An off-road motorcyclist made the gruesome discovery on Monday when he noticed bones, which were apparently dragged out of the one-to-two-foot deep graves due to animal activity, McMahon said.
The sheriff said the bodies were otherwise intact and clothes were found in the graves, although he declined to elaborate about what items were found.

Remains Found in Shallow Desert Graves Belong to Joseph, Summer McStay

The <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/police-search-missing-calif-family-9874124"> skeletal remains</a> found earlier this week in shallow desert graves outside Victorville, Calif., are believed to belong to the McStay family that mysteriously disappeared in 2010, authorities said today.

abcnews.go.com

Danielle van Dam was missing only one month before her remains were found:
"Predatory animals will go after soft tissue, such as the muscles and inner organs; they will go to more nutritious tissues such as the liver and kidneys," Sperber told the jury.
Sperber said he saw animal activity on the child's arms and legs from looking at autopsy photographs, but not in the area of the mouth.
Later in the day, San Diego County Medical Examiner Dr. Brian Blackbourne testified after that Danielle's body was in a state of advanced decomposition when he viewed it at the scene.
"The body had marked decomposition with tissue missing, mummified, dried, but still quite recognizable with blond and fairly long hair, all skin and muscle missing by animals, thigh tissue missing, the right leg below the knee was intact, the right foot intact, but the left leg, the foot was actually missing," he said.

Van Dam testifies to lurid details - UPI.com

In testimony that kept a San Diego jury riveted Wednesday, the father of slain second-grader Danielle van Dam took the witness stand and revealed two different sides of life at his home around the time his daughter disappeared, one of a typical suburban f

www.upi.com

 

[Dhighsmith]

Animal scavenging is common, mainly coyotes IMO and even packs of coyotes. Animals could be responsible for separation of the skull and jawbone and the removal of flesh. Sorry to be so graphic.

McStay case:
An off-road motorcyclist made the gruesome discovery on Monday when he noticed bones, which were apparently dragged out of the one-to-two-foot deep graves due to animal activity, McMahon said.
The sheriff said the bodies were otherwise intact and clothes were found in the graves, although he declined to elaborate about what items were found.

Remains Found in Shallow Desert Graves Belong to Joseph, Summer McStay

The <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/police-search-missing-calif-family-9874124"> skeletal remains</a> found earlier this week in shallow desert graves outside Victorville, Calif., are believed to belong to the McStay family that mysteriously disappeared in 2010, authorities said today.

abcnews.go.com

Danielle van Dam was missing only one month before her remains were found:
"Predatory animals will go after soft tissue, such as the muscles and inner organs; they will go to more nutritious tissues such as the liver and kidneys," Sperber told the jury.
Sperber said he saw animal activity on the child's arms and legs from looking at autopsy photographs, but not in the area of the mouth.
Later in the day, San Diego County Medical Examiner Dr. Brian Blackbourne testified after that Danielle's body was in a state of advanced decomposition when he viewed it at the scene.
"The body had marked decomposition with tissue missing, mummified, dried, but still quite recognizable with blond and fairly long hair, all skin and muscle missing by animals, thigh tissue missing, the right leg below the knee was intact, the right foot intact, but the left leg, the foot was actually missing," he said.

Van Dam testifies to lurid details - UPI.com

In testimony that kept a San Diego jury riveted Wednesday, the father of slain second-grader Danielle van Dam took the witness stand and revealed two different sides of life at his home around the time his daughter disappeared, one of a typical suburban f

www.upi.com

Danielle Van Dam was horrible tragic case.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I think people are getting thrown off by the word ‘trailer.’ It’s a mobile home, a single family home that is used as a main domicile. I live in one- with my husband and two kids. It’s not much different than a stick built home in terms of comfort for guests. MOO

Apologies - sounds like I’m only familiar with “trailer” stereotypes we see in movies and books over here (England)!

 

[mark1969]

RBBM

I keep thinking of the Old Dale Mining District outing.

Bringing @mark1969 's timeline post forward again.



CA - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 22 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #2

JMVHO.

Still a possibility (I guess 5 to 7%) that she could have been killed on that location and that the rest was a rollercoaster of John himself....

 

[mark1969]

@mark1969, have you had an opportunity to speak with JRF’s ex?

Of course she wouldn’t have any direct knowledge. But she might provide some insights into his character and what he may or may not be capable of.

We asked our PI but without any result yet

 

[mark1969]

I was looking at that same chart and didn't want to be the only one interested in this rather unpleasant topic. But it's a crucial topic.

If nothing was found in the mobile home that was decomposing (meat out on the counter), I would assume that they wouldn't mention it in the search warrant (and I think they used it as evidence of possible homicide - hence the homicide appendix to the search warrant).

Most forensics manuals say 48-72 hours before decomp odors are able to be detected by human noses. For the smell to have permeated the house enough to be smelled immediately, the body had to have been there at least 48 hours IMO (I'm choosing the lower end of the time period because it was so hot out there and it's a mobile home - if the A/C was not on during that period, it would go faster). But how could this have happened between July 22 and 24? The truck is sighted in Thermal on the 22nd. JRF's phone is near Julian on the 24th.

It's certainly hard to fit this fact into the timeline (unless JRF went and scouted a place for body removal, knowing the decomp clock was ticking - thinking maybe he had 72 hours before it was too noticeable). Did he then come back to Morongo Valley??

All speculation.

Maybe he dumped the body in Thermal ...and that could be the reason that his rear back window of his Truck is open at the Thermal picture ????

 

[L'Eau_d'Hiver]

It's the fact that JFR is sitting in the background, not helping her do whatever she's doing that I think says something about the relationship dynamic. NO way a guest in my house would be doing that (or, in the house of most of the people I know; nor would my husband ever let a lady clean the floor...)

You can see JFR sitting impassively while his new friend/guest is wiping the floor. DH's view on why he took the picture and what he thought was going on is unknown to us - but crucial testimony.

IMO.

Exactly!
It's the fact that DH -who just met Fang- was taking those specific pictures that makes me feel uneasy. Not the fact that Fang was cleaning, because I can easily sense she must be a generous, helpful person.
What was he thinking about then, what was the point of documenting those moments and the destination of such pictures?

 

[Megnut]

Exactly!
It's the fact that DH -who just met Fang- was taking those specific pictures that makes me feel uneasy. Not the fact that Fang was cleaning, because I can easily sense she must be a generous, helpful person.
What was he thinking about then, what was the point of documenting those moments and the destination of such pictures?

Attraction?

Has LE identified the person who shopped with JFR?

Is there a love triangle in this somewhere?

Could there have been violence which a third person tried to interrupt? Unsuccessfully. And the resulting scene had such bad optics that a third person decided to cover it up?

Decomp in the mobile home but no mention of disarray, blood, cleaning IIRC.

Where did JFR die? Was he moved?

It wasn't about money. (Based on the cash left behind.)

No theory, just throwing a smattering of half-thoughts out there --

All jmo

 

[Red Clover]

Maybe he dumped the body in Thermal ...and that could be the reason that his rear back window of his Truck is open at the Thermal picture ????

I also think the truck in Thermal is a crucial clue. Have LE searched that area??

I don't think JF is out where JRF's body was found, but he may have ditched her backpack out there before driving himself into Harper's Flat and taking a final hike.

The ID on his body even after everything it went through and the state it was found in says to me he wanted to be ID'd when he was found. Of course he couldn't have anticipated the hurricane and floods that came in August.

MOO -- "IF"-- JRF harmed JF at some point & her body was in the trailer starting to decompose, he may have decided to make his way out to the Thermal area and then Julian and the Anza-Borrego to scout out possible locations that he could dispose of a body.

I mean JF isn't in the trailer, on 8/1 it was discovered wide open and the majority of her belongings were found there along with her cash. She hasn't used her credit card or phone since 7/21. Her phone is still missing.

I'm curious where JRF's last known location was? Was it at the base getting gas on the night of 7/21?

A decomp smell was generated sometime between 7/17 when the friend mentioned meeting JF and the visit by LE 8/1, maybe before if DH felt the need to make a MP report 7/30, it's possible he noticed the smell and decided to make the report.

It's also possible DH knows more about the police visit to the trailer park and more about the personal interactions between JF & JRF from 7/14-7/21.

He may know the ex as well and know if JRF was abusive towards her or JF. I feel like the fact his ex is Chinese and he chose to develop an online relationship with JF is slightly suspect. Is that why JF was cleaning, because JRF had certain expectations of a Chinese woman in his home?

What the heck happened there the night of 7/21? It was extremely hot, they'd been out all day and until fairly late. They were almost certainly tired if not completely exhausted. I don't know about the rest of you but a long hot day might make me feel pretty grumpy or irritable.

MOO - Were they arguing in the car? Was JF disillusioned with JRF?
Did JRF become abusive?

If his ex had a restraining order and the police reports of violent assaults by JRF are true, I wouldn't be surprised that he would be capable of harming JF even if murdering her wasn't his intention.

He had to know her daughters would ask questions, they reported JF missing on 7/26 but it's possible, even probable that JRF was already in Anza-Borrega by then.

Such an impossibly sad set of circumstances. I'm so deeply sorry that JF's daughters have to face this awful reality.

 

[crussell821]

Apologies - sounds like I’m only familiar with “trailer” stereotypes we see in movies and books over here (England)!

Oh no worries! I know the word means something different there. I just wanted to clarify what the home would likely be like!

 

[cenazoic]

It's the fact that DH -who just met Fang- was taking those specific pictures that makes me feel uneasy

Point of clarification: CBS8 ‘were given’ the pictures by DH but don’t specifically say he took them. Theoretically, JRF (or even someone else unknown) could have taken them and then sent them to DH. Is it confirmed anywhere that he actually took the pictures?

Family notified ex Navy SEAL found dead in desert, female companion still missing

Bones found in the Harper Canyon area of Anza-Borrego on September 17.

www.cbs8.com

 

[mark1969]

We are waiting for the report of our PI where the info should be where and when and in which condition and with which belongings of JF inside the truck of JRF was found .... Can somebody help us in meantime already with exact location and timestamp when and where car was found or is this info not public yet in the USA ?
Thx alot for helping the progress in this terrible search