GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Davereid]

Agree--I like to err of the side of hope, personally, if I don't know all the facts.

I remember that the severely disturbed 10-yr old who set fire to the Our Lady of the Angels school (killing 95, and injuring many more) DID get help from the juvenile judge who sent him to a special rehab facility for emotionally disturbed kids after another fatal fire set at age 12. (This in spite of the fact that the judge was uniformly denounced for his decision, and even his own wife criticized him for it.) The boy lived there age 13-17, was successfully rehabilitated, and went on to serve in the Army and live a normal life afterwards.

I was trying to find more information on this case and cannot seem to find the name of the boy anywhere. Did you read a book on this? The fire was horrible. I had never heard of this case but appreciate you sharing. I would like to know more if possible.

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[Davereid]

You know what :censored: I'm judging away over here .. how could any of those children get the nurturing they need?

They cannot. Not even someone with unlimited resources can devote enough time for that many children.

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[TheDuchess]

I was trying to find more information on this case and cannot seem to find the name of the boy anywhere. Did you read a book on this? The fire was horrible. I had never heard of this case but appreciate you sharing. I would like to know more if possible.

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They have never released the name of the boy. He passed away several years ago. I do not know that he was ever "rehabilitated" however. When asked about how he felt about what he had done he said that was between him and "his God." There are lots of people from Our Lady of Angels that still participate in a message board at http://www.olafire.com/ and Johnathan Cain, the keyboardist from Journey was in the fire and wrote a song for the 50th anniversary tribute. http://www.olafire.com/TheDayTheyBecameAngels.asp

Horrible story that has always haunted me. I grew up in the area and also went to Catholic school, so it really hit home for me.

 

[menmo]

With all due respect, Priscilla didn't NEED to have financial means to fill out court paperwork and request time with her children. Money isn't a valid excuse.

No Priscilla didn't need to have financial means to fill out the paperwork for visitation but I have known a lot of people in my lifetime that thought they did. They had no idea how to go about how to even represent themselves if needed and that the court system wouldn't eat them alive. They were intimidated and while I don't know this about her, if she's telling even a fraction of the truth about Barney not allowing her the visits with her kids thinking that maybe it would be easiest on them if she were to walk away and maybe that wouldn't put them in more turmoil. Was it the right thing to do? I have no way of knowing at this time because I don't know if she would have been more of a bad influence on them than anyone with a more prominent role. I don't think it's a good thing to walk out on your children but I also think that if you can't be a positive influence it may be a good thing. Only time tells.

ETA: I removed the child support issue from my ex so it was one thing less to fight about. I realize that not everyone feels they can do that and that's okay, too. With some ex's there is just so much hate, arguing, and trying to win the trophy of best parent ever that the kid(s) get lost in the mess.

MOO

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

They have never released the name of the boy. He passed away several years ago. I do not know that he was ever "rehabilitated" however. When asked about how he felt about what he had done he said that was between him and "his God." There are lots of people from Our Lady of Angels that still participate in a message board at http://www.olafire.com/ and Johnathan Cain, the keyboardist from Journey was in the fire and wrote a song for the 50th anniversary tribute. http://www.olafire.com/TheDayTheyBecameAngels.asp

Horrible story that has always haunted me. I grew up in the area and also went to Catholic school, so it really hit home for me.

The story gripped me when I studied it earlier this year; his name was wiped from the record, and some personal identifying details were slightly changed upon release from the program in 1965. However, several on the OLA site do know his real name, especially those who lived at the time, were involved in the fire, and knew him when in class there. I also know his real name. In January 1962, at age 13, he confessed to setting the OLA fire (and was also investigated for a bowling alley fire from 1961 that killed at least one person). He recanted the OLA confession in court during the next few months, but was still sent to Starr Commonwealth Boys Center in Michigan by Judge Cilella due to the bowling alley and other Cicero fires (and it's largely accepted that his recanting about OLA was due to his allegedly abusive step-father's and family atty pressure).

He was "successfully rehabilitated" in that he lived the rest of his life without any record of crime--no more destructive behavior, and no more causing pain and death to others, at least that anyone has been able to track down. He was tracked down, finally, by a PI in the first decade of this century--who told the OLA survivors who hired him that the arsonist had died in 2004--so the rest of his life was known about, by a select few. He had two sons (one of whom died), and also a granddaughter who died tragically at a young age.

Considering the abuse he allegedly endured as a child, it's a success story. (It's alleged by the "No Bad Kids" rehab facility author that his abuser even used to hold the boy's hands over an open flame as punishment for masturbation.) His mother had been raped by her stepfather at about age 14; he was the resulting child. He enrolled in OLA under his mother's maiden name. At the time of his confession, his mother had married another abusive but connected man, and he was adopted by this stepdad (with new last name), and enrolled in Cicero public schools. His photo with the stepdad was published in the papers at the time of the confession; however, his name was blotted from the record upon his being sent out of state to the rehabilitation center. (And personal info was slightly modified upon coming out and entering the service.)

Sorry to derail...but wanted to answer the comments/questions above. If interested, visit the olafire.com site for more info.

ETA:

What the heck? What case was that? The kid caused TWO fatal fires? And successfully rehabilitated? I trust you but that's hard to believe and I would love to read more.

I was trying to find more information on this case and cannot seem to find the name of the boy anywhere. Did you read a book on this? The fire was horrible. I had never heard of this case but appreciate you sharing. I would like to know more if possible.
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I read several books about the fire, as well doing a lot of online research. There are several recommended books on the olafire.com website, one or two even written by survivors; I also read the book written by the people at the Michigan facility called "No Bad Kids" or something similar (a bit fluffy of a title, but has several allusions to the arsonist and some of their observations and work with him).

It's a story filled with tragedy...even the judge's story is tragic. It's said he endured so much bitter criticism (even from his wife) it contributed to his death a year later.

A research paper with lots of good bibliographical info can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...lo42IP&sig=AHIEtbRzdC8V3a_aXnEo4_KN_n7em56AWg

 

[cluciano63]

For me, I would somewhat better if this boy is found to have a mental illness or sociopathy, I guess, because what is the alternative?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Thanks PIM for all the helpful info. I knew where one of those unknowns fit in but I was in the dark re the other 2. Just for clarification there were 10 total whole, 1/2 and step siblings(I know they weren't true step siblings but I believe that is how they were described in the MSM) with a total of 7 parents. That's a bit crazy!

To answer this...BF (from what MSM has told us so far) has fathered at least 6 children by 4 women in the past 20 years. (How many partners some of those women have also had is unknown to me, though two of the women each have two other kids, at least.)

 

[Elainera]

Re the Our Lady of the Angels School fire, Wikipedia has a short paragraph on the boy:

The cause of the fire was never officially determined. A boy, age 10 and a fifth grader at the time of the fire, confessed in 1962 to setting the blaze and subsequently recanted his confession. He was more afraid of confessing to his mother and stepfather than to the police. He also confessed to setting numerous other fires in the neighborhood, mostly in apartment buildings. This boy had been excused from his classroom to go to the boys' toilet about 2:00 p.m. on the day of the fire. This was roughly the time that the fire began to smolder in the bin at the base of the stairwell. After the incident, a fire investigator found burned matches in the undamaged sacristy area of a chapel located in the basement of the north wing.

In his confession and lie-detector test, the boy related details of the fire's origin that had not been made public and that there was no way he should have known. Neither he nor anyone else was ever prosecuted. After further investigation, a court concluded that evidence to substantiate the confession was lacking. He died in 2004. Officially, the cause of the fire is still "unknown".

Our Lady of the Angels School fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can't find his name though.

PIM, where did you get the name and all the info on the boy?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Re the Our Lady of the Angels School fire, Wikipedia has a short paragraph on the boy:



Our Lady of the Angels School fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can't find his name though.

PIM, where did you get the name and all the info on the boy?

Lotsa tracking. The Vietnam war record helped a bit; also, the clincher was when I found (almost by chance) the Ohio unwed mother's home and record where his mother gave birth to him at age 15 (I knew her first name and small hometown long before I discovered her maiden name). That was a huge help, in that it provided her maiden name and also confirmed his date of birth. After she gave birth she decided she couldn't give him up for adoption--and there is no record of adoptive parents in that record, either. She left for Chicago soon after with her baby.

ETA: there is some speculation (not necessarily unfounded) that his adoptive stepdad had organized crime connections. Also that the Catholic church did...and it is not surprising that the silence and his identity has been carefully guarded. *It's interesting to me that she submitted the info online regarding her name, the agency, & his birth two months after the adoptive stepdad died in 1999.

 

[evelyn24]

which case does this relate to please? interested to look. TIA xx

Sorry for the delay in responding. The case is of Zach Witman who was convicted of killing his younger brother Greg Witman with a knife and covering up the murder with a story of an intruder. Zach was 14 and Greg was 12 at the time.
There is scarce information on the case compared to the volumes of information we usually get in cases like this but there is some info if you Google.


Here is a little video

http://fox43.com/2013/03/27/witman-family-believes-boys-killer-has-not-been-found/#axzz2TvfDFnEm

The parents have spent thousands and many years fighting the conviction.

 

[Elainera]

Sorry for the delay in responding. The case is of Zach Witman who was convicted of killing his younger brother Greg Witman with a knife and covering up the murder with a story of an intruder. Zach was 14 and Greg was 12 at the time.
There is scarce information on the case compared to the volumes of information we usually get in cases like this but there is some info if you Google.


Here is a little video

http://fox43.com/2013/03/27/witman-family-believes-boys-killer-has-not-been-found/#axzz2TvfDFnEm

The parents have spent thousands and many years fighting the conviction.

Interesting case and lots of similarities to this one. Thanks evelyn!

This is from the homepage:
http://www.zachwitman.com/

Gregory Witman, 13 years-old, was returning from school when he was brutally attacked from behind at the front door of his home in New Freedom, Pennsylvania, on October 2, 1998. He did not even have time to remove his backpack, suffering approximately 100 stab wounds.

His 15 year-old brother, Zach, home sick and in his parent’s upstairs bedroom at the time of the attack, heard loud noises that he thought was roughhousing by some of the boys from Greg's school. Zach came downstairs, saw blood on the door and discovered his little brother with massive injuries. He immediately called 911.

Worth a read.

He's still in jail after 15 years.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Do you notice sth in the left hand/ fingers ? are there kinda scratches ? I'm not sure..

 

[menmo]

For me, I would somewhat better if this boy is found to have a mental illness or sociopathy, I guess, because what is the alternative?

For me I'd rather he suffered some traumatic event because I think with therapy that could more likely be resolved. Not that I would want any child to suffer that way but to me would be the less of the two choices.

View attachment 34180


Do you notice sth in the left hand/ fingers ? are there kinda scratches ? I'm not sure..

I blew the picture up and don't see anything resembling scratches or cuts, but my eyes aren't what they once were.

MOO

 

[Linda7NJ]

For me I'd rather he suffered some traumatic event because I think with therapy that could more likely be resolved. Not that I would want any child to suffer that way but to me would be the less of the two choices.



I blew the picture up and don't see anything resembling scratches or cuts, but my eyes aren't what they once were.

MOO

I blew it up too and thought a saw a long red scratch down his arm,.,.turned out to be a cat hair stuck to my screen...embarrassed...


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[believe09]

View attachment 34180


Do you notice sth in the left hand/ fingers ? are there kinda scratches ? I'm not sure..

I dont see scratches but he looks like he is in shock and numb.

 

[MissJ]

Where has anyone excused the murder for any reason? Mental illness due to intense family discord can be an explanation. But not an excuse.

Upthread many excuses were made: he was provoked; he was made to babysit and was angry; even raging 12 year old hormones. JMO but it certainly sounds like excuses to me.

 

[TheDuchess]

Upthread many excuses were made: he was provoked; he was made to babysit and was angry; even raging 12 year old hormones. JMO but it certainly sounds like excuses to me.

Why is it that any time someone tries to figure out a "reason" that people equate it with an "excuse?" Sure-some "reasons" can be excuses, such as self-defense, mental illness, etc... Some "reasons" can simply be mitigating circumstances, i.e. a jealous lover, argument over money, crime of passion, etc... Just because people are trying to figure out the "why," at least of the person behind the crime, doesn't mean they are trying to excuse anything! There is always a REASON...even if someone just wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone...but no one kills anyone for "no reason." Trying to understand what a killer's "reason" for killing gives us better insight into the crime.

And yes...if there is mental illness involved, that can be a reason and possibly even an excuse-but remember-mental illness as a defense is very narrow-basically someone who cannot understand the difference between right and wrong (i.e. the mother who killed her children because the devil told her to and was psychotic.)

 

[MissJ]

But that's you. You are uniquely yourself, born with your own unique genetic makeup, and living in your own unique environment and set of circumstances. You cannot extrapolate from your unique experience and say that because you never turned out a certain way, no one else could or would have either.

A person with a different genetic makeup, a different personality, a different beginning, might, in the same environment, have gone on to perpetuate abuse, live a chaotic life, engage in criminal behavior, or perhaps had issues of substances abuse.

It in no way takes away, or discredits what you have achieved in your own life, by recognizing that others were not able to do what you did.

Well said, FWIW I agree with you in most of your points. I do think genetics plays a part and I guess I failed in not saying that. JMO

 

[MissJ]

Why is it that any time someone tries to figure out a "reason" that people equate it with an "excuse?" Sure-some "reasons" can be excuses, such as self-defense, mental illness, etc... Some "reasons" can simply be mitigating circumstances, i.e. a jealous lover, argument over money, crime of passion, etc... Just because people are trying to figure out the "why," at least of the person behind the crime, doesn't mean they are trying to excuse anything! There is always a REASON...even if someone just wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone...but no one kills anyone for "no reason." Trying to understand what a killer's "reason" for killing gives us better insight into the crime.

And yes...if there is mental illness involved, that can be a reason and possibly even an excuse-but remember-mental illness as a defense is very narrow-basically someone who cannot understand the difference between right and wrong (i.e. the mother who killed her children because the devil told her to and was psychotic.)

JMO but I don't see any reason to take another life unless it is self defense. Therefor it sounds like excuses to me. MY opinion. Yes people do kill for "no reason" just because they feel like it as in Ted Bundy, Scott Peterson. They had excuses I'm sure but there was no reason to kill. JMO:moo: I agree to disagree.

 

[Elley Mae]

I do know that times have changed, and as far as I am concerned they are not getting better. I do wish that all states had laws that forbid parent/parents from leaving their children home unsupervised until the age of 16. If a kid under the age of 16 can not be held accountable for their actions while at home alone/or babysitting, then the parents should be held accountable for their actions. It seems that to lots of people being under the age of 16 that you are brain dead and can not be held responsible for any and all actions that you may do while out of the presents of an adult. jmo but if he is found to be responsible he should never be allowed out. NEVER.