Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #4

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Children are missing, so of course we're suspicious of those responsible for their care! And there will be plenty of anger and blame and criticism to go around when the time comes. But, for me, I willing to wait for an arrest before I start hating on every public word, movement, action & reaction we know (or assume to know) about the parents. JMO.
 
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I’ve gone through many scenarios trying to make sense of this whole situation. An accident just doesn’t add up, for me. The accident would have had to have happened to both boys. Animal attack, hot car, bathtub, the boys getting into something like cleaning solutions, etc......even abduction, but it happened to both of them, not just one of them.

Also, what type of accident could have happened where the AP felt that it was a better idea to concoct a “running away” storyline than to call 911 with the truth? That’s why I’m thinking that maybe this wasn’t an accident.

Another thing, what’s the point of moving out of an apartment into the suburbs, but not letting the kids out to play in the fenced back yard? So many contradictions.

Moo
I agree with you completely. I don't think this is an accident at all. I think they moved out to that home so they could be isolated. "Off grid' .

MOO
 
I absolutely agree. It's a very tough job. They may or may not be equipped. One of my friends was a very involved in the Case Family Programs for 30 years. They always selected the highest risk kids. The outcomes were never predictable. I have seen amazing outcomes and shocking outcomes. Sometimes people with good intentions end up in really bad situations trying to do "the right thing". It's not always about the quick buck, though that's incentive, it's a bit more complicated. We all like to do the "right" thing, until we get over our heads. We have all been there to some degree.

The sad reality is for neurotypical and not neurotypical kids, you never know personalities, mental health, behavioral problems, until they start "growing into them". Most issues really dont start presenting until they are getting closer to school age. Sometimes getting into a stable environment can have a paradoxical effect on children once they lose their sense of norm. Chaos and abuse, can become a predictable normal pattern, so take that away and kids no longer have a sense of normal. Once they reach an age where they can compare or start learning their coping behaviors aren't always appropriate, it can have devastating impact on the sense of self. This can magnify issues. After a period of adjustment, some kids will find that new norm.

Some kids are malleable and don't have issues adjusting. Some children never adjust. Some kids have concurrent conditions from in utero exposure or genetics, some don't. You can do "everything right" as a parent or "everything wrong" and you never know. Causation should not be confused with correlation. Correlation should not be confused with coincidence. Thinking out loud.

THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!
 
RSBM

I'm curious, what specificly leads anyone to believe the parents might have sold these kids?
it's not my main theory but I consider it as it might be the only way they're actually alive. Just a couple points:
1. the recorded conversation at JW's mom's house (unreleased) in Spanish purportedly discussing trafficking. it seems a pretty insidious and lucrative industry :(
2. zero evidence whatsoever (so far that we know of) that they are dead
3. the whole extended family seems to be in the "foster care business"
("1 in 7 of children reported to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children became victims of sexual trafficking. Of this amount, 88 percent were coming out of the foster care system. Child Trafficking Hits Close to Home)
4. being sold as a pair seems more likely than murdering them as a pair, especially if they had already been getting monthly payments from the state
5. people being watched, threatened, etc. seems to indicate this a bigger, more complicated crime.

I suggest watching Tricia's live from last night!

Curious, isolated from who, and for what purpose?
Isolation is a control mechanism. And I too believe that TW is paranoid and covers bases thoroughly. I would say isolated from prying eyes, from people that know them, past neighbors, family or friends who would question where they boys were before they could get their story straight.
they maybe felt as though they needed a clean break to convolute the timeline which I believe so far it has worked in their favor.
all Moo!
 
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I liked your post. Having worked in residential treatment for 5 years, then in a local high school for 20 years, with "at-risk" youth (I've come to believe they ALL are at risk at some time or another), your thoughts led me to recall the cognitive, emotional, and social abilities scale, wherein, if one were to have a low level of each, it would stand to reason how one reacts to stressors in their daily life often differs from one who would be possessed of a high level of same.

The curve of explosion, at it's peak, may include, among various things, a vulgar verbal request, a verbal personal attack, or an aggressive, or worse, assaultive act.

The stimulus/response cycle results in appropriate responses throughout the day, over and over, yet it only takes one time for the response to become violent.

Higher cognitive/emotional/social skill set, for the most part, minimizes the incidence of the aggressive/violent response.


Please don't hammer me for I know there are exceptions to every rule. Generally speaking here.

And so, is it not often the case, that frustration is handled differently by different persons, yes?

Speculation as it may be, I have opinions on the matter. Might something have occurred, with the adopted parents, or a loved one, or family member, who was charged with the care of these two boys, might the punishment of some behavior have been excessive? Who knows?

Mix in a little covid lockdown, home schooling requirements, possible economic challenges, and maybe even a little drug use/abuse, and where might that take the wandering mind?

I do know that many of the families that I dealt with over the years were tight. Real tight.

As I've said before, we either have a kidnapping, a murder, or a sale. Possibly a combination thereof.

BBM

Yes.

Eg..

The signs were there.


Ariel Robinson -- a former winner of 'Worst Cooks in America' -- jokingly discussed raising kids in a brutal manner before she was charged with killing one of her own ... and we've got the video.

We've obtained footage of Ariel performing an impromptu stand-up routine in Spartanburg, SC in 2019, in which she's discussing trying to adopt a daughter ... and a social worker coming to her home to make sure she was a fit parent.


As Ariel recounts the story, she talks about two other children of hers -- an 8-year-old boy and an 11-year-old boy, both of whom wanted a little sister -- and how they were acting wild while the worker was there. She says she should've locked them up in cages as a result.

Nothing too crazy ... but watch what she says next. She jokes that at one point, she turned around and screamed upstairs to the boys, "Shut up before I come in there and punch in your throat!" ... adding that she'd reached her "mommy level" of frustration.


'Worst Cooks In America' Star Talked Child Abuse in Stand-Up Before Being Charged with Killing Daughter
 
I’ve gone through many scenarios trying to make sense of this whole situation. An accident just doesn’t add up, for me. The accident would have had to have happened to both boys. Animal attack, hot car, bathtub, the boys getting into something like cleaning solutions, etc......even abduction, but it happened to both of them, not just one of them.

Also, what type of accident could have happened where the AP felt that it was a better idea to concoct a “running away” storyline than to call 911 with the truth? That’s why I’m thinking that maybe this wasn’t an accident.

Another thing, what’s the point of moving out of an apartment into the suburbs, but not letting the kids out to play in the fenced back yard? So many contradictions.

Moo

It is not uncommon for 2 or more kids to end up in bodies of water. One of my now adult children was a very adventurous escape artist, so he was not allowed out of parental site. He and the dog would blindly lead and follow each other anywhere. I had one close call with a canal with him, while he was being watched by 3 pre-teens. Fortunately a neighbor farmer saw him and the dogs. He was 3. It happened so fast, I went in for Caprisuns. That's it. He was only gone maybe 5-10 minutes. He covered a lot of ground. He was not allowed outside without a parent after that. It was one of the worst experiences of my life.

Bad things can happen to good people. Look at this site. How they react is a whole different thing. IMOO.
 
I agree with you completely. I don't think this is an accident at all. I think they moved out to that home so they could be isolated. "Off grid' .

MOO

Exactly! I don’t think TW understands what “Off grid” truly is because a suburb in Cal City is not it. I think COVID has caused a lot of people to re-think living in more densely populated areas and promoted them to move farther out from the city and into the country. Some have even decided to go “off grid”, but you don’t do in a housing development.

Off grid involves working towards being as self sustaining as possible by growing your own food, not depending on a corporation for your power, etc. Real country living!! Dirty hands and dirty feet livin. Buuuutt they would let the kids go outside “can’t get in the dirt”. Also, the soil there does not look like it could grow anything other than rattlesnakes.

JMO
 
<modsnip>

Founded in 1909 in response to the ongoing violence against Black people around the country, the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) is the largest and most pre-eminent civil rights organization in the nation. We have over 2,200 units and branches across the nation, along with well over 2M activists. Our mission is to secure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of rights in order to eliminate race-based discrimination and ensure the health and well-being of all persons.

NAACP | About the NAACP

of course they would be involved. Unfortunately, black children are abused and in foster care at a higher rate per capita. it is similar to the MMIW organization.
 
It is not uncommon for 2 or more kids to end up in bodies of water. One of my now adult children was a very adventurous escape artist, so he was not allowed out of parental site. He and the dog would blindly lead and follow each other anywhere. I had one close call with a canal with him, while he was being watched by 3 pre-teens. Fortunately a neighbor farmer saw him and the dogs. He was 3. It happened so fast, I went in for Caprisuns. That's it. He was only gone maybe 5-10 minutes. He covered a lot of ground. He was not allowed outside without a parent after that. It was one of the worst experiences of my life.

Bad things can happen to good people. Look at this site. How they react is a whole different thing. IMOO.
Compare how you acted when your child was missing vs. the video of TW. Similar?
Did you not look at the areas next to your house? Did you not alert neighbors? Did you “search” in one direction for a total of six minutes? Did you stand motionless/vocal-less behind a tree for 13 mins waiting for cops?

TIA. The comparison will be helpful.

amateur opinion and speculation
 
it's not my main theory but I consider it as it might be the only way they're actually alive. Just a couple points:
1. the recorded conversation at JW's mom's house (unreleased) in Spanish purportedly discussing trafficking. it seems a pretty insidious and lucrative industry :(
2. zero evidence whatsoever (so far that we know of) that they are dead
3. the whole extended family seems to be in the "foster care business"
("1 in 7 of children reported to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children became victims of sexual trafficking. Of this amount, 88 percent were coming out of the foster care system. Child Trafficking Hits Close to Home)
4. being sold as a pair seems more likely than murdering them as a pair, especially if they had already been getting monthly payments from the state
5. people being watched, threatened, etc. seems to indicate this a bigger, more complicated crime.

I suggest watching Tricia's live from last night!


Isolation is a control mechanism. And I too believe that TW is paranoid and covers bases thoroughly. I would say isolated from prying eyes, from people that know them, past neighbors, family or friends who would question where they boys were before they could get their story straight.
they maybe felt as though they needed a clean break to convolute the timeline which I believe so far it has worked in their favor.
all Moo!

I must have missed some links.
- Recorded conversation about trafficking? I hadn't read this before.
- Whole extended family in the foster care business? I'd only read JW's mother also fostered.
- People (?) being watched, threatened, etc.?
What?! Who's being watched and threatened and by whom? Threatened about what, exactly?

I went to the links provided and I was unable to locate the data about trafficked children coming out of the foster care system. That's a little confusing to me. Does that mean aging out, or being adopted? Also, 1 in 7 kids reported to the NCMEC become victims of sex traffickers, and 88 percent of those kids, are coming "out of foster care"?

Is this accurate, this 1 out 7?
I don't think I've ever seen those stats before and I can't seem to find a source for it.

ETA: I did find this at the NCMEC site:

"Of the nearly 26,500 runaways reported to NCMEC in 2019, 1 in 6 were likely victims of child sex trafficking." - Key Facts

While missing runaways are obviously still in danger of creeps taking advantage of them, these were apparently the numbers of kids reported in 2019 that left willingly, then wound up in an awful place with awful people.

That's a huge difference between the idea of a 3 and 4 year old in foster care being sold into sex trafficking, and runaway kids who are the prey of sick monsters (where the stats actually came from).

jmo
 
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Compare how you acted when your child was missing vs. the video of TW. Similar?
Did you not look at the areas next to your house? Did you not alert neighbors? Did you “search” in one direction for a total of six minutes? Did you stand motionless/vocal-less behind a tree for 13 mins waiting for cops?

TIA. The comparison will be helpful.

amateur opinion and speculation

Great point! We all react differently to stress and situations. At the time I was an ER nurse and had a lot of wilderness training, so I was very methodical. Notified neighbors, there were only 2, and started a search. Every second counts. I do well in crisis mode, some do not. My partner, a prosecuting attorney for two cities, was tasked with calling 911. Know what? He was paralyzed and immoveable, unable to complete the task. Frozen in place. Son was found was by the neighbor before that call could take place. 911 was never called. And honestly, the state my partner was in, who knows how long it would have taken...We weren't even a disenfranchised population....

We can all sit on the sidelines and judge how people may or may not react, decide how we think they should act, what our expectations are, how someone should present well with cadence on TV, how MSM edits coverage, psychoanalyze human behavior from the comfort of our computer screens. No amount of planning can prepare one for an actual event. None of us know how we would act in this situation. I am all about benefit of the doubt until otherwise shown. There are many victims in this case, including those we feel could be responsible. Innocent until guilty. Guilty of the human condition perhaps. Respectfully. IMOO
 
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Great point! We all react differently to stress and situations. At the time I was an ER nurse and had a lot of wilderness training, so I was very methodical. Notified neighbors, there were only 2, and started a search. Every second counts. I do well in crisis mode, some do not. My partner, a prosecuting attorney for two cities, was tasked with calling 911. Know what? He was paralyzed and immoveable, unable to complete the task. Frozen in place. Son was found was by the neighbor before that call could take place. 911 was never called. And honestly, the state my partner was in, who knows how long it would have taken...We weren't even a disenfranchised population....

We can all sit on the sidelines and judge how people may or may not react, decide how we think they should act, what our expectations are, how someone should present well with cadence on TV, how MSM edits coverage, psychoanalyze human behavior from the comfort of our computer screens. No amount of planning can prepare one for an actual event. None of us know how we would act in this situation. I am all about benefit of the doubt until otherwise shown. There are many victims in this case, including those we feel could be responsible. Innocent until guilty. Guilty of the human condition perhaps. Respectfully. IMOO
All sound and excellent points.
Side eye still in place for the time being.
No one wants the APs to be involved in the children disappearing; that’s a whole other level of horror.

But you are right. What appears to be isn’t always so. We shall wait for LE to inform us of their findings.

Coincidentally, I am similar to you in crisis. I have a "quiet eye". I'm great in the thick of disaster, then shake uncontrollably after! We are all different.

amateur opinion and speculation
 
I must have missed some links.
- Recorded conversation about trafficking? I hadn't read this before.
- Whole extended family in the foster care business? I'd only read JW's mother also fostered.
- People (?) being watched, threatened, etc.?
What?! Who's being watched and threatened and by whom? Threatened about what, exactly?

I went to the links provided and I was unable to locate the data about trafficked children coming out of the foster care system. That's a little confusing to me. Does that mean aging out, or being adopted? Also, 1 in 7 kids reported to the NCMEC become victims of sex traffickers, and 88 percent of those kids, are coming "out of foster care"?

Is this accurate, this 1 out 7?
I don't think I've ever seen those stats before and I can't seem to find a source for it.

I want to reiterate this is NOT my main theory, but it's the only case I have consistently come to wonder, and after considerable (disgusting) child sales research I think it is viable for this case. Since its the only way (in my mind) that they would still be alive, I think it's worth considering.

My opinion that I had thought it had been discussed that fostering was on both sides of the family? I have an idea who but I don't want to be the source of misinformation!
Were you able to watch the WS live from last night?
The recording (someone parked at Casa Loma apartments recorded JW sister and mom discussing trafficking in Spanish) as well as the threats, warnings and growing animosity towards those who are digging hard/searching was discussed live. Specifically there have been a few youtubers incessantly searching or sleuthing that have discussed being threatened or witnessing the threats. Sounds like Tricia is making contact to bring at least one of them on live (Crenshaw. hopefully!)

"1 in 7 of children reported to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children became victims of sexual trafficking. Of this amount, 88 percent were coming out of the foster care system."
"Out of" is an interesting and confusing word choice as you have pointed out. chin scratch.
that direct quote is from Unicef, about 1/3 of the way down the article, maybe I had linked incorrectly above: Child Trafficking Hits Close to Home

I really hope there is something to the trafficking angle, as the boys have a chance at life in said situation. my brain says that selling to traffickers is somehow worse than homicide (go figure) and I don't think the parents would come forward with that info to save them from any charges.
At the end of the day, its so ridiculously conpiratory and sensational that I can only put one egg into that basket (okay, some days two)
But deep down, I don't think the boys are with us anymore, and I hope they're able to get any shred of evidence sometime soon.
what a mess. moo!!!!!
 
Compare how you acted when your child was missing vs. the video of TW. Similar?
Did you not look at the areas next to your house? Did you not alert neighbors? Did you “search” in one direction for a total of six minutes? Did you stand motionless/vocal-less behind a tree for 13 mins waiting for cops?

TIA. The comparison will be helpful.

amateur opinion and speculation

I'm not who you're asking, but I've thought about how I react when I can't quickly find one of my kids. We live on a farm and are outside quite a bit when the weather is cooperative. Last summer, my kids were 4, 2.5, and 1, and there were a couple instances when I would be busy in the garden and would then notice that one of the kids wasn't playing where they had just been. I'll run to the house to check if they went in (this is usually where I find my oldest, drawing), make a lap around the house, I'll peek in all of the outbuildings (found the youngest sitting on the lawn mower in the shed one time), all while side-eying the pond and the corn fields completely surrounding our place. The whole time, though, I would be yelling their name as loudly as I could. We haven't met all of our (distant) neighbors, but I can almost guarantee that they know there's some sort of living creature at our place named W-, H-, and C-, be it child or dog or parakeet, for as often as I'm yelling their names outside.

That's active looking. What TW was doing, I would consider passive looking. MOO.
 
"1 in 7 of children reported to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children became victims of sexual trafficking. Of this amount, 88 percent were coming out of the foster care system."
"Out of" is an interesting and confusing word choice as you have pointed out. chin scratch.
that direct quote is from Unicef, about 1/3 of the way down the article, maybe I had linked incorrectly above: Child Trafficking Hits Close to Home

within the linked article, the source for this comes for Polaris Project, which also says:
"It is also not uncommon for parents and family members to sell children for sex in exchange for money, drugs, or something of value."

as well as this map which is glaring and makes me sick! Trafficking is underreported so they think they only catch a fraction every year.
(reported human trafficking incidents in 2019)
"22,326 individual survivors; nearly 4,384traffickers and 1,912 suspicious businesses"
2019-National-Heatmap-Final-with-Logo-1024x578.jpg

What We Know About How Child Sex Trafficking Happens
Myths, Facts, and Statistics
 
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