Found Deceased CA - Rachel Nguyen, 20, & Joseph Orbeso, 21, Joshua Tree Nat'l Park, 27 July 2017 #2

[bears10]

I have friends who did similarly stupid **** all the time at their ages. Getting high and going hiking? All the time. Doing mushrooms and kayaking? I have a group of friends that did it. Going to something called "full moon party" in a foreign country, drinking, and taking all sorts of drugs? Yeah I know someone who did that too.

I'm inclined to think that most of my friends who dabbled in drug use have done at least one thing where they could have ended up dead from poor decision-making.

My best friend and I sometimes look back and thank God for how fortunate we are to be alive. We did a lot of risky stuff in our early 20s. We were invincible, or so we thought. Actually, we didn’t think much sometimes.

 

[Poppyflower]

I had friends like this too, but they would never get up super early to do drugs and hike. Maybe their plan was to do an early hike, get back before super hot, nap and then partake in drugs in the park but not hiking far out. Just speculating.

 

[yukoncornelius]

With the mercy/suicide scenario, why would Joseph have killed Rachel when he had no idea where the search party was or when they would potentially arrive? Yet, he still decides the best option is to shoot her?

Additionally, if killing Rachel was a mercy killing to end her pain and suffering, then why did he take his own life? He had addressed ending Rachel’s pain and suffering by shooting her. Why then kill yourself? Logically, this makes no sense.

What makes more sense is the unrequited love murder/suicide scenario. We know he wasn’t currently her boyfriend and that she had a crush on someone else. Rachel likely rejected Joseph's advances. He couldn’t deal with it, took her to an isolated, controlled environment and killed her, then took his own life.

Most of us would do anything other than shoot a friend, if we were really trying to help them. Joseph and Rachel were likely there the entire time, already deceased, from the first time searchers went out looking for them on Friday, July 28th.

 

[Whiskers16]

With the mercy/suicide scenario, why would Joseph have killed Rachel when he had no idea where the search party was or when they would potentially arrive? Yet, he still decides the best option is to shoot her?

Additionally, if killing Rachel was a mercy killing to end her pain and suffering, then why did he take his own life? He had addressed ending Rachel’s pain and suffering by shooting her. Why then kill yourself? Logically, this makes no sense.

What makes more sense is the unrequited love murder/suicide scenario. We know he wasn’t currently her boyfriend and that she had a crush on someone else. Rachel likely rejected Joseph's advances. He couldn’t deal with it, took her to an isolated, controlled environment and killed her, then took his own life.

Most of us would do anything other than shoot a friend, if we were really trying to help them. Joseph and Rachel were likely there the entire time, already deceased, from the first time searchers went out looking for them on Friday, July 28th.

I think this thread has now boiled down to two groups for the most part, where each group thinks the other group's assertions are illogical.

In my mind: 1) it is completely logical that two people with a planned hiking trip in the desert could get into a situation causing them to want to die. 2) it's a fact that people get lost and die in the wilderness, even when extreme heat or cold isn't a factor. 3) it's a fact that there are many people who carry a weapon for protection in any number of scenarios, including hiking, camping, etc. 4) it is completely logical that someone who wants to die and has a weapon would consider using the weapon to voluntarily end their life rather than suffer until the bitter end. And some people who consider it would do it. Yes, there may be a sliver of hope that a rescue team will find you. But they may not have even known if there was a rescue team looking for them. Or they may have endured days without a rescue team and felt it was not worth enduring more in hopes of a rescue.

Disclaimer: I am impatient, I have a very low threshold for pain or even discomfort, and I have no negative personal beliefs about suicide. I can see how someone with different characteristics or beliefs might find this scenario more or less reasonable than another.

 

[Seajay]

How many other times have people been lost under the same conditions or similar ones chosen this path to end suffering?

 

[Dixie811]

There are people that kill themselves every single day for lesser reasons. Being half-dead in the desert, dying a slow death of dehydration and heat is a dire situation at the very least.

They were dying one way or another and they knew it, IMO.

 

[bears10]

There are people that kill themselves every single day for lesser reasons. Being half-dead in the desert, dying a slow death of dehydration and heat is a dire situation at the very least.

They were dying one way or another and they knew it, IMO.

They had run out of water if I recall correctly. Who knows how long they had been without water. Not to mention she had a head injury, they were probably sweltering, and scared. Feeling hopeless and accepting reality.

I am on the same page as whiskers... low threshold for pain and don’t judge regarding suicide.

 

[Capebluff]

There are people that kill themselves every single day for lesser reasons. Being half-dead in the desert, dying a slow death of dehydration and heat is a dire situation at the very least.

They were dying one way or another and they knew it, IMO.

This!!! Agree whole heartedly!

 

[Force Ten]

With the mercy/suicide scenario, why would Joseph have killed Rachel when he had no idea where the search party was or when they would potentially arrive? Yet, he still decides the best option is to shoot her?

Additionally, if killing Rachel was a mercy killing to end her pain and suffering, then why did he take his own life? He had addressed ending Rachel’s pain and suffering by shooting her. Why then kill yourself? Logically, this makes no sense.

What makes more sense is the unrequited love murder/suicide scenario. We know he wasn’t currently her boyfriend and that she had a crush on someone else. Rachel likely rejected Joseph's advances. He couldn’t deal with it, took her to an isolated, controlled environment and killed her, then took his own life.

Most of us would do anything other than shoot a friend, if we were really trying to help them. Joseph and Rachel were likely there the entire time, already deceased, from the first time searchers went out looking for them on Friday, July 28th.

I disagree. Taking the life of another, especially someone you love, is huge. Then take your own life, even more monumental. This wasn't a Romeo/Juliet situation. If that were the case I feel it would have been carried out entirely different. Think about the food rationing and injuries to Rachel. She was 'Nursed'. This was not about jealousy or rejection. Even he was rejected he would do what he could to get them both back to safety.

As far as the search, I feel that they didn't think anyone was searching, or realized there was a search. They were way off the grid and may have not heard or seen planes. To me I feel they probably perished early the second day, not wanting to endure another grueling second day in the heat. Maybe a third. We also don't know how severe her head trauma was. Perhaps she was wailing in pain and begging for him to end it.


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[Elainera]

I googled "symptoms of head injury" and on the right side Google has this info box which says:

People may experience:
Cognitive: amnesia, inability to speak or understand language, mental confusion, difficulty concentrating, difficulty thinking and understanding, inability to create new memories, or inability to recognise common things
Behavioural: abnormal laughing and crying, aggression, impulsivity, irritability, lack of restraint, or persistent repetition of words or actions
Whole body: balance disorder, blackout, dizziness, fainting, or fatigue
Mood: anger, anxiety, apathy, or loneliness
Eyes: dilated pupil, raccoon eyes, or unequal pupils
Gastrointestinal: nausea or vomiting
Sensory: sensitivity to light or sensitivity to sound
Speech: slurred speech or impaired voice
Also common: persistent headache, a temporary moment of clarity, bleeding, blurred vision, bone fracture, bruising, depression, loss of smell, nerve injury, post-traumatic seizure, ringing in the ears, or stiff muscles

https://www.google.co.in/search?lr=...-YrXAhXKQI8KHbexDwsQvwUIIigA&biw=1280&bih=563

Maybe she had one, or several, of these. Now couple that with dehydration .... If she lost a lot of blood she would be dehydrated even faster. Joseph possibly gave her most of the remaining water.

 

[yukoncornelius]

Most people have an intense desire to live when faced with imminent death. Aron Ralston comes to mind.

 

[yukoncornelius]

Did Joseph have a permit to carry the gun? He resided in Lakewood which is in Los Angeles County. Apparently it is extremely difficult to obtain a CCW license in Los Angeles County.

 

[Seajay]

I know many people commit suicide. My own sister in law killed herself when she was 27 years old.

I'm asking what the stats are for someone in this type of situation who by all accounts was normal and loved life, not suffering from depression.

I just want to know if this is a rare occurrence or it happens more times then we would think. I get that it was a dire situation. They are not the first to find themselves in this type of predicament. It's both terrifying and agonizing. I don't know what their choices were because I wasn't there. I am just curious as to how often this actually happens when faced with this dilemma. TIA.

 

[bluesneakers]

I know many people commit suicide. My own sister in law killed herself when she was 27 years old.

I'm asking what the stats are for someone in this type of situation who by all accounts was normal and loved life, not suffering from depression.

I just want to know if this is a rare occurrence or it happens more times then we would think. I get that it was a dire situation. They are not the first to find themselves in this type of predicament. It's both terrifying and agonizing. I don't know what their choices were because I wasn't there. I am just curious as to how often this actually happens when faced with this dilemma. TIA.

Quick google search brings up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_McCunn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauro_Prosperi

http://www.latimes.com/travel/la-trw-suicide29plr-2008jun29-story.html

http://www.hcn.org/wotr/fatal-attraction-in-our-national-parks

A more thorough search would probably bring up specific numbers but I'm not exactly sure what to search on. There is a lot out there about suicides in national parks and surprisingly a lot about suicide by dehydration.

 

[Ironside]

Most people have an intense desire to live when faced with imminent death. Aron Ralston comes to mind.

He was in the shade though.

 

[Seajay]

I wonder why the first guy didn't go to that cabin 5 miles away.

The second guy lived and was rescued.

The others weren't stranded or anything, they just wanted to end their lives and chose a place of nature to do it.

During the course of this case, I've read many stories of people who got lost while hiking. Several of them were late found dead from dehydration or because they froze to death. All had shown a will to live and to try to get to help and civilization.

This is the first case I've heard of where the lost opted to commit suicide.

Who knows how long they were out there before that happened. And we may never know what condition they were in when they chose to perish. Or if only one of them chose to.

With the discussion of them committing suicide because it put them out of their misery, I just wondered how often it's happened. Who knows what I would do in the same situation.

Thank you for your research.

 

[Detectivediva]

He was in the shade though.

But he literally had to cut off his arm in order to survive...the will to live is that strong.

Now I'm not sure how hallucinogens (if applicable) might alter the survival instinct...That would also be interesting to research.

 

[Ironside]

But he literally had to cut off his arm in order to survive...the will to live is that strong.
.

He wasn't lost or in very severe heat conditions though.

 

[Detectivediva]

Wow this is creepy. Were either of them into Japanese literature/history?

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/aokigahara/

THE SUICIDE FOREST, AOKIGAHARA
JAPAN'S HAUNTED FOREST OF DEATH

Located at the base of Mt. Fuji, Aokigahara is perhaps the most infamous forest in all of Japan. Also known as the Sea of Trees, Suicide Forest, and Japan's Demon Forest, Aokigahara has been home to over 500 confirmed suicides since the 1950s. Called "the perfect place to die."

A HORRIFYING LEGEND IS BORN
The story ends with two lovers committing suicide in the forest, so many people believe that's what started it all.

 

[mister happy]

He wasn't lost or in very severe heat conditions though.

Yes. Every situation is different. And how many folks would actually have the amazing fortitude to cut their arm off, even in dire circumstances. He is one rare bird.