Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #10

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The only clear info stated in the publication was this: "Calgary Search and Rescue Police blocked off the entrance to the former Cam Clark Ford building off of East Lake Ramp on July 19, as part of the search for the bodies of Alvin Liknes, Kathy Liknes, and Nathan O’Brien of Calgary" (BBM) so it's hard to tell if that particular building was being searched or the entrance area. If the search expanded beyond that point, I wonder if a larger area would've been blocked off?

I'm responding to my own post because I didn't realize earlier while typing it out (was in a rush and had to go out) but noticed now while re-reading this page, that it was Calgary Search and Rescue Police that blocked off the area. So maybe I'm overanalyzing, but wouldn't it be Homicide or ME searching, or was CSRP only blocking the area not doing the search? I'm not sure police protocols, or which areas of LE does what, but I would assume if they were searching for bodies would CSRP even be involved at all? Does anyone know?
 
I'm responding to my own post because I didn't realize earlier while typing it out (was in a rush and had to go out) but noticed now while re-reading this page, that it was Calgary Search and Rescue Police that blocked off the area. So maybe I'm overanalyzing, but wouldn't it be Homicide or ME searching, or was CSRP only blocking the area not doing the search? I'm not sure police protocols, or which areas of LE does what, but I would assume if they were searching for bodies would CSRP even be involved at all? Does anyone know?

Search and Rescue volunteers have been involved in searching for the bodies. The Medical Examiner would not be searching for bodies.
 
From that article:

"Jen goes to pick up Nathan and there’s lots of blood and no one there. "

That helps explain what we have be trying to decipher about the crime scene.

Interesting. Assuming this is true, DG clearly didn't clean the inside of the house. Why, then, would he clean up where the drag marks were outside?
 
Sorry if this has been posted already but I just found another article about the GP helicopter company. Interesting quote about what JO found when she entered the house. I hadn't heard if described that way.

http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/2014/07/24/gp-company-aiding-police-in-murder-investigation


Thanks kaley for the link. I take a lot from this article because Greg is a close family friend and neighbor and has intimate details the public does not which comes directly from the family. In his own words you can hear the words of the parents of NO. Very sad and yes, it does explain a great deal to us outsiders. It is unthinkable what the family and particularly NO parents are living through. I also take from this interview that the family does not know much more than MSM.
 
Interesting. Assuming this is true, DG clearly didn't clean the inside of the house. Why, then, would he clean up where the drag marks were outside?
I think if he did clean up, hose down himself and/or sidewalk, it was to give him more time before anyone was aware that something occurred. The suspect would not necessarily know when anyone was scheduled to return to the home and he did not want to alert the neighborhood with evidence outside the home.
 
Interesting. Assuming this is true, DG clearly didn't clean the inside of the house. Why, then, would he clean up where the drag marks were outside?
I couldn't tell by the video and pictures of those 'drag mark' whether they were stains (cement being porous) or wet. If they are stains from blood, it's possible he attempted a clean up.

You know what they say - You can't get blood from a stone. Or can you? Hmmm...
 
Cement is very porous so it stains easily and once blood is dried you would need a power washer or scrub brush and some soap to get it out. So if it is blood even a few minutes of drying and soaking into the cement would explain the stains.
 
I think if he did clean up, hose down himself and/or sidewalk, it was to give him more time before anyone was aware that something occurred. The suspect would not necessarily know when anyone was scheduled to return to the home and he did not want to alert the neighborhood with evidence outside the home.
My issue with him cleaning up outside is this...
It was a warm night. People sleep with their windows open. I can hear my neighbours bug zapper at night and im positive I would hear a hose running in the middle of the night. Why would he risk cleaning outside (himself or the cement) in a quiet neighborhood?
 
I couldn't tell by the video and pictures of those 'drag mark' whether they were stains (cement being porous) or wet. If they are stains from blood, it's possible he attempted a clean up.

You know what they say - You can't get blood from a stone. Or can you? Hmmm...
If the drag marks were blood I would think someone might attempt to clean those and not inside for a couple of reasons, 1. If he was going to make two trips he'd want to make sure no one noticed the drag marks and discovered the scene before he had a chance to return to the scene and do whatever he needed to do and 2. to give him a longer head start ... if someone noticed the blood say walking their dog early in the morning they may investigate and/or call the police. Just thoughts if they were indeed blood/drag marks.
 
Interesting. Assuming this is true, DG clearly didn't clean the inside of the house. Why, then, would he clean up where the drag marks were outside?

If he dragged bodies, or body parts, out of the home to his truck, he probably left footprints in the blood ... or whatever it was that caused the drag marks. Maybe he put water on the sidewalk to eliminate foot prints.
 
Otto are you referring to earlier statements made by neighbours/friends/family members regarding the 'purchase' of properties in Mexico and Edmonton? If so, it has previously been discussed that people 'hear' different things, understand things differently, assume things, etc., and that some people can tend to 'say' certain things in a certain way which may lead some to believe certain things that may or may not be completely correct.. do you know what I'm saying?
As far as I understood from hearing from actual 'family members', A&K had only 'purchased' a property in Edmonton, but they were going to visit/vacation in Mexico.
Otto do you live in Canada? I'm not sure if bankruptcy laws are 'Canada' laws, or if they differ from province to province? I know that in Ontario, if you are bankrupt, you can't really keep your home, like you can in the USA (apparently in the USA, creditors can't go after the family home?). But in Canada, options are limited.. a bankrupt can 'keep' their home if there is no equity in it, however, the lender would want the bankrupt's name to be removed from title in order to protect their investment. The home would have to have had a large mortgage on it which would lessen the equity available... or.. some kind of deal could have been obtained where a creditor allows one to keep the family home, but with a stipulation attached that once sold, monies from the equity in the home at that time must be handed in to creditors.
Didn't we (WS) hear that Alvin had declared a personal bankruptcy some time ago, and then also K declared same 2 years ago? (And then also A's company a few days prior to the disappearance). If the home had been purchased years ago, and the value skyrocketed, there would be much equity in the home, and therefore no need for bankruptcy, unless there was also a large corresponding lien/mortgage against the home. Bankruptcy means debts are greater than liquidated assets, including one's share of ownership in a home(s).
Considering that bankrupts do not become discharged from their bankruptcy for something like 7 years, it is kind of odd if K is owning another home, because wouldn't that situation put *that* home at risk?
I wonder if there are behind-the-scenes things going on regarding all of this stuff, since, it is not difficult to imagine whichever creditors got stiffed for their money in K's bankruptcy, may be wondering the same things.
But... with all of these companies, you could very well be on to something on that one could have been loaning money to another, or to 'someone'.. and then if that someone declared bankruptcy, the company who did the loaning would possibly also be shot down and out of business?.. but.. aren't there laws about 'arm's length transactions'? ie if one of A's corporations took the mortgage on one of A's personal homes, and then A went bankrupt.. it would be A's corporation that would be out the money.. mind is wandering here, sorry!
There could also have been assorted companies because of the specific type of work each did? Or the specific 'partners' that may have been principals in one company but not another, etc.? ie A owns Corp#B with Associate/friend#C, and also owns Corp#D with Associate/friend#E? That could *perhaps* explain the multiple corps?

According to early statements, the couple had purchased a condo in Mexico, and a home in Edmonton. I did see one article naming Evansburg rather than Edmonton. I don't think that anyone that owns two homes in two countries is having financial woes. If they had not re-mortgaged the home, then based on property values 17-25 years ago, they purchased the home for about $150-200,000 and they had a capital gain of half a million dollars. There were also several oil companies that were set up, and then shut down over the last 15 years. It's quite possible that Winter Petroleum (owned by A. Liknes) paid those companies (owned by A. Liknes) for some sort of service, giving A. Liknes a profit on those delisted companies, and at the same time removing assets from Winter Petroleum ... that's speculation ... but I am very curious about all those companies simultaneously owned by one person.
 
Thanks kaley for the link. I take a lot from this article because Greg is a close family friend and neighbor and has intimate details the public does not which comes directly from the family. In his own words you can hear the words of the parents of NO. Very sad and yes, it does explain a great deal to us outsiders. It is unthinkable what the family and particularly NO parents are living through. I also take from this interview that the family does not know much more than MSM.

Greg Head is the man that started the donation website for the family, which is why I wondered if the donated funds were being used to pay for his brother's company to scan the surface of the Airdrie acreage for signs of disturbance. Could air surveillance discover something on the property that could not be found by 40 officers walking shoulder to shoulder across the entire property? Were they were also looking in a 10 mile radius around the property and all areas between the city limits and Airdrie? I wonder if this technology was used to identify debris from the missing MH370 airline, and whether it can identify airline parts in the ocean.
 
My issue with him cleaning up outside is this...
It was a warm night. People sleep with their windows open. I can hear my neighbours bug zapper at night and im positive I would hear a hose running in the middle of the night. Why would he risk cleaning outside (himself or the cement) in a quiet neighborhood?

It was posted not too long ago that it was a cooler, windy, rainy night. The high was 16C, the low was 11C ... which is 60F high, 51F low

http://www.accuweather.com/en/ca/calgary/t2g/june-weather/52479
 
Greg Head is the man that started the donation website for the family, which is why I wondered if the donated funds were being used to pay for his brother's company to scan the surface of the Airdrie acreage for signs of disturbance. Could air surveillance discover something on the property that could not be found by 40 officers walking shoulder to shoulder across the entire property? Were they were also looking in a 10 mile radius around the property and all areas between the city limits and Airdrie? I wonder if this technology was used to identify debris from the missing MH370 airline, and whether it can identify airline parts in the ocean.
It is my understanding that with this technology, they can see *beneath* the surface. They can also scan private land without the necessity of a warrant.

I will have to come back with a link, but I could swear I read that the company who owns this helicopter was donating their efforts and resources.
 
I can't imagine anyone in Calgary closing the windows for 11C/51F.
 
Otto are you referring to earlier statements made by neighbours/friends/family members regarding the 'purchase' of properties in Mexico and Edmonton? If so, it has previously been discussed that people 'hear' different things, understand things differently, assume things, etc., and that some people can tend to 'say' certain things in a certain way which may lead some to believe certain things that may or may not be completely correct.. do you know what I'm saying?
As far as I understood from hearing from actual 'family members', A&K had only 'purchased' a property in Edmonton, but they were going to visit/vacation in Mexico.
Otto do you live in Canada? I'm not sure if bankruptcy laws are 'Canada' laws, or if they differ from province to province? I know that in Ontario, if you are bankrupt, you can't really keep your home, like you can in the USA (apparently in the USA, creditors can't go after the family home?). But in Canada, options are limited.. a bankrupt can 'keep' their home if there is no equity in it, however, the lender would want the bankrupt's name to be removed from title in order to protect their investment. The home would have to have had a large mortgage on it which would lessen the equity available... or.. some kind of deal could have been obtained where a creditor allows one to keep the family home, but with a stipulation attached that once sold, monies from the equity in the home at that time must be handed in to creditors.
Didn't we (WS) hear that Alvin had declared a personal bankruptcy some time ago, and then also K declared same 2 years ago? (And then also A's company a few days prior to the disappearance). If the home had been purchased years ago, and the value skyrocketed, there would be much equity in the home, and therefore no need for bankruptcy, unless there was also a large corresponding lien/mortgage against the home. Bankruptcy means debts are greater than liquidated assets, including one's share of ownership in a home(s).
Considering that bankrupts do not become discharged from their bankruptcy for something like 7 years, it is kind of odd if K is owning another home, because wouldn't that situation put *that* home at risk?
I wonder if there are behind-the-scenes things going on regarding all of this stuff, since, it is not difficult to imagine whichever creditors got stiffed for their money in K's bankruptcy, may be wondering the same things.
But... with all of these companies, you could very well be on to something on that one could have been loaning money to another, or to 'someone'.. and then if that someone declared bankruptcy, the company who did the loaning would possibly also be shot down and out of business?.. but.. aren't there laws about 'arm's length transactions'? ie if one of A's corporations took the mortgage on one of A's personal homes, and then A went bankrupt.. it would be A's corporation that would be out the money.. mind is wandering here, sorry!
There could also have been assorted companies because of the specific type of work each did? Or the specific 'partners' that may have been principals in one company but not another, etc.? ie A owns Corp#B with Associate/friend#C, and also owns Corp#D with Associate/friend#E? That could *perhaps* explain the multiple corps?

Regarding the couple's plans after their "leaving the country sale", the couple told different people different things. They told a friend that they had bought a condo in Mexico. Did that friend imagine that? I don't know. I doubt it, as the friend of the family made the statement to the media. The son was asked where his parents were going after they liquidated, and he said that they were moving to Edmonton for three months, and then to Mexico. Someone was told that the family was moving up North ... that was also in the media early on. I don't think that everyone misheard what they were told, as everything that was reported seems to more or less consistent except for differences in the timeline.

Kathryn declared bankruptcy in 2012. Alvin sold the house in Dec 2013. He alone was on title. That suggests that the house was transferred to Alvin prior to Katrhryn's bankruptcy. He had declared bankruptcy in 1994 and would have been familiar with the laws and loopholes of bankruptcy. The house sale was a private sale, as there is no real estate listing that can be found. Perhaps there's a reason why it was quietly sold to a lawyer in Dec 2013. Clearly there were problems with tax debt ($800,000 by June 2014) in 2012 (minutes from Mackenzie District minutes posted a couple of days ago), prior to the sale of the house. Perhaps Alvin sold the house, gave the money to his wife, she bought the condo in Mexico and a property in Edmonton. I don't know anything about bankruptcy, but if the funds from the sale of the house were transferred to Alvin's wife, and she bought a condo in Mexico, is there anyone that could seize it due to Alvin's company declaring bankruptcy in June 2014? It strikes me as a bit of a shell game.
 
It is my understanding that with this technology, they can see *beneath* the surface. They can also scan private land without the necessity of a warrant.

I will have to come back with a link, but I could swear I read that the company who owns this helicopter was donating their efforts and resources.


I read a bit about the technology and didn't get that impression. Anyone that dug a garden, or buried a dog, would have ground disturbance.

"“What’s unique about their technology is it can detect ground disturbances at a very, very high degree of accuracy...they use this technology called LIDAR, which has been around for a longtime but the accuracy they have is a step-change compared to, say, even what the military would have,” said Greg."

http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/2014/07/24/gp-company-aiding-police-in-murder-investigation

"What is LIDAR?

LIDAR, which stands for Light Detection and Ranging, is a remote sensing method that uses light in the form of a pulsed laser to measure ranges (variable distances) to the Earth. These light pulses—combined with other data recorded by the airborne system— generate precise, three-dimensional information about the shape of the Earth and its surface characteristics."

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/lidar.html

I was looking for the word "donate" in the articles I've read.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...help-from-high-tech-gear-helicopter-1.2713772
 
I can't imagine anyone in Calgary closing the windows for 11C/51F.

What's been discussed before...& firsthand from someone remembering that particular night ...thanks again hulamum for that!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...June-2014-*ARREST*-10&p=10780692#post10780692

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...algary-30-June-2014-1&p=10683671#post10683671

ETA: fwiw...I sleep with windows slightly open even in winter too but then again....that's just me...rainy & windy tho...I may close them a touch*L* JMOO
 
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