Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[Geonaty]

Police didn't want the public searching private property for the obvious reason that property owners don't want strangers wandering around on their land.

I don't think so. There was a clear statement that the public doesn't know what they are looking for.

 

[stan laurel]

hockey bags are big and most now come with rigid bottoms and wheels; if you fold a person you could both easily roll them out, lean/stand them on end and move the mass as a whole instead of an awkward shape of dead weight. I really hate putting my brain in this space. Drive the bodies to another remote space and dump them.

 

[Anna1964]

Hey you guys, just looking for someone here. On a crazy phone. Is there a thread for the two Amish girls that are missing. We cannot even find pictures. An amber alert went out this morning. In news. Have found nothing reporting they were recovered. Hopefully they have, but no idea. On new phone, can't start a thread. Thanks for any info. Hope they are home and fine. TIA

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[winnnancy]

hockey bags are big and most now come with rigid bottoms and wheels; if you fold a person you could both easily roll them out, lean/stand them on end and move the mass as a whole instead of an awkward shape of dead weight. I really hate putting my brain in this space. Drive the bodies to another remote space and dump them.

Ugly place to go...I'm still hoping they're spotted in Belize sporting bad hair dye, sigh

 

[LoisLane]

Old driveways can have staining if not properly cleaned. I only see one vehicle? Maybe its time for bed..lol

Old driveways can have staining and this pictures shows that. The interior garage is probably the same. I am just curious if the markers put down by investigators could have been old stains that they questioned as new and cleaned-up. The car in the driveway is not the same car as what they show today. There is also a red car in the street could belong to the neighbours or the Liknes home (just an observation). From other pictures of the crime scene, there is one where the car appears to have been backed out of the garage, I assume because they needed a better look of the garage. So the one photograph that was discussed where a leaked spill was dripping or however you would describe it along with the wheel barrow/dolly theory of the "squiggly" mark seems strange to me if the car was parked in the garage. It is a single car garage. Possibly the car was backed out and put back afterwards, which would be odd as well if the green p/u was backed into the driveway to load up.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hey you guys, just looking for someone here. On a crazy phone. Is there a thread for the two Amish girls that are missing. We cannot even find pictures. An amber alert went out this morning. In news. Have found nothing reporting they were recovered. Hopefully they have, but no idea. On new phone, can't start a thread. Thanks for any info. Hope they are home and fine. TIA

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Can't find one Anna ... as of 10:33 EDT, not found yet. Give me a few minutes and i'll start a thread for them.

 

[Sillybilly]

@Anna1964

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ton-NY-August-13-2014&p=10855588#post10855588

 

[LawyerMum]

Old driveways can have staining and this pictures shows that. The interior garage is probably the same. I am just curious if the markers put down by investigators could have been old stains that they questioned as new and cleaned-up. The car in the driveway is not the same car as what they show today. There is also a red car in the street could belong to the neighbours or the Liknes home (just an observation). From other pictures of the crime scene, there is one where the car appears to have been backed out of the garage, I assume because they needed a better look of the garage. So the one photograph that was discussed where a leaked spill was dripping or however you would describe it along with the wheel barrow/dolly theory of the "squiggly" mark seems strange to me if the car was parked in the garage. It is a single car garage. Possibly the car was backed out and put back afterwards, which would be odd as well if the green p/u was backed into the driveway to load up.

If we could get an aerial shot/diagram of the garage, side door, side path, driveway and where p/u could have theoretically been parked, it might help with visualizing how it could have been done. We do all seem to be focused on this at the mo.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I don't have a link (haven't looked) where it is stated that after the heart stops beating, blood flow stops and people don't bleed. I don't know anything about blood leaking out of the body when a dead person is moved. After death, blood will pool at the lowest point of the body. The average body has 5-6 litres of blood. How much blood would leak to result in drag marks spanning 8 metres?

Turn on your garden hose, pinch the end off, then turn off the hose... if you then cut the hose, water will pour out. Gravity is a funny thing.

With your theory, anyone shot in the head no longer bleeds... they died instantly, thus no more blood. How about car accident victims? Die instantly in a crash, no blood. Jump off a building... no blood. Just because it's not being pumped out, doesn't mean basic physics is somehow suspended.

How does it leave very small, squiggly trail for maybe 25 feet? Have a look at any UFC mat after a fight where someone was cut... with maybe a little 2 inch gash over the eye. Take a 500 ml bottle and start pouring the water out slowly while walking... you'll get 25 feet easily.

I can't wait until tomorrow so the focus can get back to reality...

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

You make a fair enough point about a human body being sat up so the starting point is higher. The highest starting point would be the head. Nope, doubt he started there...next would be under the arms...which means the head would likely slump towards front, back or either side...making it awkward...then what? You would still need to lift the body high enough to get it in the truck...so having a higher lifting point doesn't seem to gain any advantage as you would have to lift it up from a sitting position to sit it on the truck tailgate, and then jump in the back of the truck in order to drag it in the rest of the way. Again, awkward, obvious, noisy and still heavy. Actually to modify the benchpress position while lying under the body and using both his hands and feet while lying on his back would probably be easier but I don't think DG's arms and legs are 36" long, so that doesn't work. He could stand the body up, hoist it over his shoulder, sit it on the tailgate, jump in and drag it the rest of the way in. Or, he stood the body up...got in the box and lifted it up from the standing position. Ramp and wheelbarrow would be easiest, but still could be noisy.

.

Once again...

A new F150, tailgate to ground is 36.4 inches. You would only need to get the upper torso onto the tailgate... so you grab the victim under the arms like in the wiki picture "C", approach the tailgate sideways, turn and drop. The leg weight won't be enough to drag the torso down. Lift the legs and that's it.

It's a heck of a lot quicker, cleaner and easier than dismembering someone at a crime scene. How on earth would the perp dismember someone? With what tools?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireman's_carry

 

[otto]

Turn on your garden hose, pinch the end off, then turn off the hose... if you then cut the hose, water will pour out. Gravity is a funny thing.

With your theory, anyone shot in the head no longer bleeds... they died instantly, thus no more blood. How about car accident victims? Die instantly in a crash, no blood. Jump off a building... no blood. Just because it's not being pumped out, doesn't mean basic physics is somehow suspended.

How does it leave very small, squiggly trail for maybe 25 feet? Have a look at any UFC mat after a fight where someone was cut... with maybe a little 2 inch gash over the eye. Take a 500 ml bottle and start pouring the water out slowly while walking... you'll get 25 feet easily.

I can't wait until tomorrow so the focus can get back to reality...

I'm basing bleeding on a heart beat. Without a heartbeat, the blood stops circulating. I think that is where there is a different interpretation. I'm discussing bleeding due to heart beat, and it seems there's another interpretation of bleeding being a result of blood falling out of a dead body. 24 feet of drag marks is significant, in my opinion - far more significant than 500ml bottle of liquid. The reality is that there were drag marks spanning 24 feet made in a dark liquid. That strikes me as an awful lot of liquid to fall out of a body that is being dragged.

 

[otto]

Once again...

A new F150, tailgate to ground is 36.4 inches. You would only need to get the upper torso onto the tailgate... so you grab the victim under the arms like in the wiki picture "C", approach the tailgate sideways, turn and drop. The leg weight won't be enough to drag the torso down. Lift the legs and that's it.

It's a heck of a lot quicker, cleaner and easier than dismembering someone at a crime scene. How on earth would the perp dismember someone? With what tools?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireman's_carry

An axe?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I'm basing bleeding on a heart beat. Without a heartbeat, the blood stops circulating. I think that is where there is a different interpretation. I'm discussing bleeding due to heart beat, and it seems there's another interpretation of bleeding being a result of blood falling out of a dead body. 24 feet of drag marks is significant, in my opinion - far more significant than 500ml bottle of liquid. The reality is that there were drag marks spanning 24 feet made in a dark liquid. That strikes me as an awful lot of liquid to fall out of a body that is being dragged.

Dip your finger in paint, then smudge it on the sidewalk. Let's say you get 3 inches of smudge. That is 4 fingerdips per foot, and 100 finger dips for 25 feet. 100 finger dips fits in what.. a shot glass?

Given LE took blankets away from the landfills, perhaps there was a badly injured body wrapped in a blanket. If that was left for 5 to 10 minutes before the dragging, that is enough time for a significant amount of blood too pool, and then leak through a blanket... thus creating an inconsistent pattern of dragging and smudging.

Heart beating or not, drag someone with a large open head wound by their feet. Gravity still takes effect. No interpretation necessary.

 

[kaley]

From the time line:

Midday, June 29: Five-year-old Nathan O’Brien goes to visit his grandparents with his mother, Jennifer. In the afternoon, neighbour Peter Walton’s grandkids play with Nathan O’Brien in the park behind the Liknes home, while Alvin Liknes looks on from the garage.

I'm sorry I can no longer find the parent's press release video on the CBC or Global BC sites. I'm sure a WS'er will rescue me. TIA. What JO actually says on the video, is that she went to the sale "with my son, and Nathan was there". This has always made me wonder if Nathan had slept over the night before as well. Or maybe JO just worded it wrong. Either way, it is probably meaningless, but I see that some members have questioned why he was left to sleep over on that tragic night. If he had slept over on two consecutive nights, it might pose different questions, or none at all.

Yes I remember this very well. I also remember that she had a shirt of Nathan's with her at the press conference which she said she brought to her Moms house for extra clothes for Nathan to wear the next day (as in Monday). This sleep over was planned. IMO Nathan didn't just fall asleep or the sleepover did not happen at the last minute. JO packed him extra clothes for the sleepover ahead of time.

 

[Cherchri]

Yes I remember this very well. I also remember that she had a shirt of Nathan's with her at the press conference which she said she brought to her Moms house for extra clothes for Nathan to wear the next day (as in Monday). This sleep over was planned. IMO Nathan didn't just fall asleep or the sleepover did not happen at the last minute. JO packed him extra clothes for the sleepover ahead of time.

I think you'll find she took a change of clothing to him on the Monday because he'd had a last minute sleepover and had no other clothing with him.

 

[kaley]

I think you'll find she took a change of clothing to him on the Monday because he'd had a last minute sleepover and had no other clothing with him.

Did she say that? I don't recall.

 

[Coldpizza]

Michael Lumsden @MLumsden770 · 5m
Douglas Garland will be making his second court appearance this morning. Appearance slated for 9 am.

ttps://twitter.com/MLumsden770

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I'm basing bleeding on a heart beat. Without a heartbeat, the blood stops circulating. I think that is where there is a different interpretation. I'm discussing bleeding due to heart beat, and it seems there's another interpretation of bleeding being a result of blood falling out of a dead body. 24 feet of drag marks is significant, in my opinion - far more significant than 500ml bottle of liquid. The reality is that there were drag marks spanning 24 feet made in a dark liquid. That strikes me as an awful lot of liquid to fall out of a body that is being dragged.

It may have not been blood on the sidewalk. I've taken a garbage bag full of empty bottles to my vehicle from the garage...I've without thinking, dragged the bag and left a trail of remnants of a can of coke or whatever behind. NO was also there...maybe he had a glass of grape juice or pop and drizzled his way down the sidewalk, kids do stuff like that. Perhaps they look like drag marks because someone tried to clean them up with a rag...there was a sale going on, people were walking in and out of the house, AL/KL may not have wanted someone stepping in the sticky mess and bringing it into the house. The kijiji ads state proudly how clean, smoke free and pet free the furniture is, they were obviously very neat people. From the looks of the garage, it supports that idea as well. There's a vase of dried flowers on the workbench, and everything is hung neatly in its place, very neat and tidy garage. Those "drag" marks may just be an incidental and not related to the crime. They may have been marked with police markers just as "precautionary for testing" purposes.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Did she say that? I don't recall.

Yes, JO was bringing NO some clean clothes. That's what she had in her hand at the press conference, the t-shirt she was bringing for him that day. (That`s odd I think, the press conference was 3 days later...why would she bring the t-shirt with her to that...unless she hasn`t let it go since the day she brought it. Could be part of her grieving.)

 

[Mrs.White]

We were at a car dealership on the weekend and DG's laywer was sitting in the service waiting room the whole hour we were there. I totally wanted to sit beside him and snoop at the notes he was reading and writing! I hope they got the information they needed and it doesn't get postponed again today.