Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[Krystine]

There's no reason to think that there was any conflict ... don't think anyone has suggested that.

I'm not implying anything. I'm questioning whether it is in the best interests of the child to be left in a home where 200 strangers had been in the previous three days, where nothing had been cleaned up - not even the "come on in" sign, where everything was for sale due to moving out of the country, and where the family breadwinner had declared bankruptcy that week. That is an awful lot of turmoil and upheaval in the house. I have no idea what decisions were made, or why they were made. I think it is truly tragic that Nathan was caught in a dispute between extended family members such that it cost him his life.

Some people live their lives with ease, others are more rigid.
How many victims of crime would re-think small decisions they made that had tragic consequences?
There is another thread I follow on WS, and someone has this as a signature line. I hope they don't mind me sharing it.
Paraphrasing here..."We are all just one poor decision away from being the subject of this forum".
The outcome was horrible, but in no way can we imply there was some kind of negligence in any shape or form.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I'm confident that LE would not have laid charges without a great deal of evidence.
The bar in this case would be vastly higher than in the case there had been bodies.
In terms of other " fertile ground", had the evidentiary trail led to the, there would likely be different charges laid or none rather a continuation of investigation in a different direction.

The investigation continues. Perhaps there are more charges and information coming.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Some people live their lives with ease, others are more rigid.
How many victims of crime would re-think small decisions they made that had tragic consequences?
There is another thread I follow on WS, and someone has this as a signature line. I hope they don't mind me sharing it.
Paraphrasing here..."We are all just one poor decision away from being the subject of this forum".
The outcome was horrible, but in no way can we imply there was some kind of negligence in any shape or form.

Negligence is perhaps a strong word, the Liknes' aren't being accused of anything. Just simple observation that it was not an optimal time for him to stay. Hindsight is 20/20. Maybe its just posters' way of wishing someone would've said no to the sleepover so that NO wasn't involved. Human nature to want a different result.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I don't see the accused cooperating with a voluntary mental health assessment. I suspect that it will have to be court ordered.

I think he must have cooperated, that's how they determined he was "suicidal" and have put him on suicide watch. Or, maybe he just said he was going to hurt himself, as a way to get away from the general Remand population.

 

[news.talk]

I think he must have cooperated, that's how they determined he was "suicidal" and have put him on suicide watch. Or, maybe he just said he was going to hurt himself, as a way to get away from the general Remand population.

I highly doubt an inmate would ever choose to be under suicide watch. Depending on the level of watch they are assessed with, they are often restrained, personal items removed, forced to eat without utensils and monitored at all times.

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/acts-and-regulations/843-cd-eng.shtml

Like I said before, if seclusion is what he wanted, his lawyer could have asked to place him in protective custody.

 

[Cherchri]

IMO most 5 year olds are asleep by 9pm or 10pm, which would have been JO's cue to leave the home. The baby may have been awake depending on the age and routine whether he was feeding, nursing, nap times, teething, etc. or also fast asleep in his car seat. Most families I know who have multiple children have a pretty consistent bedtime routine. Some are in bed as early as 7:30. NO would also have had a full day full of excitement and activity, he may have fallen asleep very easily that night.

I agree. Bedtime for my son - throughout his childhood - was 8:30. In summer it was a particular struggle given that it was light out til 10. I invested in blackout drapes and ensured he got at least 9 hours sleep.

 

[Power of Two]

It's very impressive that so many women can hoist 200lbs of dead weight, with 6+ feet of dangling arms and legs, into the back of a pickup truck!

I work in dementia care in a private facility. I am a middle aged woman of medium stature and weight. I don't mind telling you that it is a considerable strain on any given day to move even a one hundred pound body around, alive or dead. And I'm no shrinking violet. Kudos to those women who can do what is suggested!!

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

It's very impressive that so many women can hoist 200lbs of dead weight, with 6+ feet of dangling arms and legs, into the back of a pickup truck!

I won't go into the math, but basic physics dictates that if any part is touching the ground or tailgate or whatever, you're not lifting the entire weight

Given blankets were taken from the landfills, we can assume there may have been some wrapping done, which makes dragging and lifting even easier.

The point is, if many, or any woman smaller or less physically able than DG can drag and manhandle 200 lbs, then in theory, so could DG... once... for maybe 50 feet... and then lift maybe 3 to 4 feet... that's all that had to be done.

It is not as difficult as everyone seems to think. If you have never physically tried it, or physically worked for a living, or physically participated in sports, or have no physical ability whatsoever, please qualify that with your opinion. It would be helpful for everyone to then put it in the proper perspective.

 

[otto]

I agree. Bedtime for my son - throughout his childhood - was 8:30. In summer it was a particular struggle given that it was light out til 10. I invested in blackout drapes and ensured he got at least 9 hours sleep.

Bedtime at home on a school night should be fixed, but in the summertime, if children are at a family gathering, it's not unusual for them to be up a little later. It's also not unusual for them to sleep in a little longer in the morning on a holiday weekend. If it was really important to adhere to a strict bedtime schedule, the family would have been at home for that strict bedtime ... but that didn't happen, so I doubt that bedtime was strict on that Sunday night.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I work in dementia care in a private facility. I am a middle aged woman of medium stature and weight. I don't mind telling you that it is a considerable strain on any given day to move even a one hundred pound body around, alive or dead. And I'm no shrinking violet. Kudos to those women who can do what is suggested!!

Again... if one person couldn't do it, then how? To date, LE has said there are no other suspects, and there was no forklift at the house on the Kijiji ads.

 

[otto]

I won't go into the math, but basic physics dictates that if any part is touching the ground or tailgate or whatever, you're not lifting the entire weight

Given blankets were taken from the landfills, we can assume there may have been some wrapping done, which makes dragging and lifting even easier.

The point is, if many, or any woman smaller or less physically able than DG can drag and manhandle 200 lbs, then in theory, so could DG... once... for maybe 50 feet... and then lift maybe 3 to 4 feet... that's all that had to be done.

It is not as difficult as everyone seems to think. If you have never physically tried it, or physically worked for a living, or physically participated in sports, or have no physical ability whatsoever, please qualify that with your opinion. It would be helpful for everyone to then put it in the proper perspective.

Canadian women should have a man throwing competition where they toss 200 pound men into the back of pickup trucks. The smallest woman wins!

WARNING: gruesome discussion

Which part of the limp body is going to be hoisted into the back of the pickup truck first such that it is not necessary to lift the entire 6 foot long 200 pound body.

Keeping in mind that dead people don't bleed, if the limp 200 pound body was dragged and hoisted into a pickup truck, what contributed to 24 feet of washed down drag marks on the sidewalk?

Happy to discuss the math/physics of it ... looking forward to the explanation.

 

[otto]

Again... if one person couldn't do it, then how? To date, LE has said there are no other suspects, and there was no forklift at the house on the Kijiji ads.

Dismemberment of at least one adult.

 

[Power of Two]

Canadian women should have a man throwing competition where they toss 200 pound men into the back of pickup trucks. The smallest woman wins!

WARNING: gruesome discussion

Which part of the limp body is going to be hoisted into the back of the pickup truck first such that it is not necessary to lift the entire 6 foot long 200 pound body.

Keeping in mind that dead people don't bleed, if the limp 200 pound body was dragged and hoisted into a pickup truck, what contributed to 24 feet of washed down drag marks on the sidewalk?

Happy to discuss the math/physics of it ... looking forward to the explanation.

Cheeky answer....With a winch?? :thinking:

 

[musicaljoke]

Again... if one person couldn't do it, then how? To date, LE has said there are no other suspects, and there was no forklift at the house on the Kijiji ads.

Our farm truck was equipped with a homemade winch. We also always had ramps available.
Something like this in the little video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9PR8c9uUFSw

 

[otto]

Strength-Training: How Much Weight Can the Average Woman Lift?

"How do you compare on bench press? If you weigh 132 pounds and are untrained, you should be able to bench press around 64 pounds. Once you’ve trained for a few months, around 82 pounds. At the intermediate level, you should be able to press around 95 pounds. Compare that to an elite 132 pound female who would be expected to bench press around 110 pounds. At the ultra-elite level, Jennifer Thompson, a 132 pound powerlifter, broke her own bench press record and set a new record by bench pressing 300 pounds, almost 2.3 times her body weight.

When it comes to the deadlift, an untrained 132 pound woman should be able to lift around 74 pounds. After training for 3 to 9 months, about 137 pounds. At an intermediate level after a year or two of training, 159 pounds. How about at the highest level of training? Elite women at that weight can dead-lift 273 pounds."

http://cathe.com/strength-training-how-much-weight-can-the-average-woman-lift

 

[otto]

How Much Weight Can the Average Man Lift?

"An effective way to evaluate the average's man strength is to look at familiar exercises that work multiple muscle groups. With this in mind, the average untrained man can squat 125 pounds, bench press 135 pounds and deadlift 155 pounds."

http://www.livestrong.com/article/380767-how-much-weight-can-the-average-man-lift/

 

[Cherchri]

Bedtime at home on a school night should be fixed, but in the summertime, if children are at a family gathering, it's not unusual for them to be up a little later. It's also not unusual for them to sleep in a little longer in the morning on a holiday weekend. If it was really important to adhere to a strict bedtime schedule, the family would have been at home for that strict bedtime ... but that didn't happen, so I doubt that bedtime was strict on that Sunday night.

In an ideal world ..... In my case, I was a single working mum. I didn't get summers off and certainly not Monday mornings. I guess as in all things.... Different strokes for different folks. My son thrived on routine and part of his security and sense of safety seemed to be wrapped up in being able to count on his routine and knowing what to expect.

Oh, I should add, I have no family in Canada.

 

[LawyerMum]

Plus wheelbarrow...could be more than feasible. No accomplice required.

 

[otto]

In an ideal world ..... In my case, I was a single working mum. I didn't get summers off and certainly not Monday mornings. I guess as in all things.... Different strokes for different folks. My son thrived on routine and part of his security and sense of safety seemed to be wrapped up in being able to count on his routine and knowing what to expect.

We know that Nathan's family was enjoying the four day, Saturday-Tuesday, long weekend because Nathan's mom went to her parent's home at 10AM on Monday. It was a holiday weekend for that family, as well as many other families across the country. We know that bedtime was not strict because the child was not at home at a bedtime of 7 or 8PM, going through his normal bedtime routine on the night of the murder simply because he was not at home.

 

[otto]

Plus wheelbarrow...could be more than feasible. No accomplice required.

I don't recall seeing a wheelbarrow at the first crime scene, nor in the back of the pickup truck on video surveillance. Therefore, a wheelbarrow was not brought from the Airdrie acreage to the first crime scene ... unless it was left there, but we haven't seen anything that suggests a wheelbarrow was at that crime scene.