Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #23

[JadeSLeuth]

Plain murder and disposal of bodies only? It is possible, especially if his how-to books (eg how to get away with murder) suggests removing the victim's body if an unexpected fight ensues, and your DNA or clothes fibers may be found on the victim. But why didn't he just get a gun, make a silencer and shoot them? He knew he was going to face two adults and AL was a big man. He could have legally bought a gun by using his fake ID, or perhaps had contacts in his former meth business. I suspect he knew some shady characters.

There was no need to bring his truck right into their driveway and risk detection unless he had planned on taking them to the farm regardless of any complications.

Excellent points

 

[otto]

Earlier in the tweets from when the defence did their cross exam. Did they say that either the hacksaw was not tested for prints or it was and non were on it? I am kinda thinking he was extremely cautious at the al house, maybe didn't quiet have time to finish cleaning but from the witness it looked like he left nothing to tie himself to the kidnapping/murder there. Then at the Garlands it seems he ran our of time to finish getting rid of things but I don't think he thought his truck would be linked to the crime scene. Really I feel it wasn't for the truck on camera and the sister calling it in, we could still be wondering who did it and what happened...

BBM
I remember from the beginning of the trial that a saw blade has DNA from Nathan and Alvin, and meat hooks have DNA from Kathryn. The 'hack saw' - is that the 'saw blade'?

He was wearing a tyvek suit, just like forensic analysts ... we know that because tyvek suits were taken into evidence (amongst 1399 other items). He wasn't cautious, he was protected.

Garland's truck was on camera from a nearby residential construction project - which is across the street and up the hill from the Liknes property. There were more cameras on McLeod Trail. It is impossible that without his sister he would not have been captured. The only difference is that it happened faster with his sister's help.

 

[otto]

Unless there is video or pictures will we even know for sure? His lawyer already brought up the possibility of it being collections. And the straight jacket only had his DNA. Also wondering why they didn't test the diaper in the closet. If it had been washed couldn't you still get DNA from it?

BBM

I don't need a picture or video to figure out that the three victims were mortally wounded before they left their home. It was widely reported that two of the victims were in medical distress, and nothing reported about the third victim. The 8 metre blood trail spoke volumes (and litres).

Is it actually possible to wash a diaper? I know that doesn't work with pampers.
Diaper / dipe-er? Six of one half a dozen of the other. Diapers can't be washed and everyone except USA defense attorneys know that dIapers explode.

The fact it that although Garland fantasized about torturing Alvin Liknes and his wife, there is no evidence that torture happened. In fact, it appears that the victims were mortally wounded at the Liknes rental property.

Kathryn Liknes DNA on the meat hooks ... does that mean that she was the only survivor of the brutal attack in their home during the night?

 

[kittymeow]

BBM

I don't need a picture or video to figure out that the three victims were mortally wounded before they left their home. It was widely reported that two of the victims were in medical distress, and nothing reported about the third victim. The 8 metre blood trail spoke volumes (and litres).

Is it actually possible to wash a diaper? I know that doesn't work with pampers.
Diaper / dipe-er? Six of one half a dozen of the other. Diapers can't be washed and everyone except USA defense attorneys know that dIapers explode.

The fact it that although Garland fantasized about torturing Alvin Liknes and his wife, there is no evidence that torture happened. In fact, it appears that the victims were mortally wounded at the Liknes rental property.

Kathryn Liknes DNA on the meat hooks ... does that mean that she was the only survivor of the brutal attack in their home during the night?

There was a reusable diaper found, and yes they can be washed. That's what makes them reusable.

Kathy's DNA being on a meat hook doesn't specify at all whether she died at her home or not.

 

[kams]

IMO
I bet this was get-away cash to run from the law in case he had to make a quick get away.

The thing about that theory though is why didnt he run. He knew he was being suspected of things and he had a chance to leave the area. Maybe he thought his cleanup skills were good enough to beat the law.

Wondering too why LE did not count the cash. I think it is standard practice that LE would need to count it to itemize it. Maybe that happened later.

I remember that after DG was first arrested then let go, he was told sternly (repeatedly) that he was NOT to return to his parent's farm as it had been seized and was under investigation. DG ended up staying at a hotel in Airdrie, pretty much across the highway from his parent's property. One night he was attempting to make his way over there...on foot but he was nabbed by authorities. Perhaps, he was hoping to grab the $ and take off.

 

[Krystine]

What if the key to AL's truck was used to start the vehicle, or make that noise those locking devices make, to get AL outside? The master bedroom was right above the front driveway. The blood on the tailgate of DG's truck could have been from a fight that ensued. If DG 'took care' of Alvin then and there, and loaded him into the back of his truck, most of his work would be done. Presuming AL would have been struck in the head, the blood in the rear left corner of Garland's pickup could be Alvin's.

From there it would be easy to subdue the grandmother and little boy.

 

[Matzoh]

I think there was a struggle outside as well, and I think the hand weight/barbell was used to subdue somebody. Perhaps one of the victims tried to use it against Garland (creating the bruise on his knee) and he bludgeoned them with it instead?

Although I kind of don't want to know, I suspect some of the answers as to how this all falls together might come from these books in his office. What did they recommend for getting away with a murder? I'm willing to bet he was attempting to follow some of those directions. The computer information on Monday will probably shed a lot of light on that as well.

Given his seeming "doctor" fetish, I'm even more curious about why he left med school. That seems related somehow.

One other thing I've been thinking about (but haven't had time to go back and look). When we were discussing all this when it happened (maybe after Garland was arrested), I think I remember someone on WS saying that they thought someone blonde was in or driving the truck (and there was discussion about whether it might have been Alvin). Is it possible that was DG in a wig?

 

[Krystine]

I remember that as well Matzoh. Someone on one of the range roads thought they say someone blonde driving a similar green Ford.
And at one time someone thought they spotted Alvin and Nathan together, (filling up with gas?)

Something that stood out for me yesterday was that the driver and passenger side windows of the truck cab were tinted. I wondered about the front. If only the sides were tinted, as per the police constable's testimony, there's a chance one of the CCTV cams could identify the driver.

 

[gen_bug]

Given his seeming "doctor" fetish, I'm even more curious about why he left med school. That seems related somehow.

I have seen it referenced two different ways why he left Med School.

"A Postmedia News story from the drugs trial noted that the meth cook, as drug makers are called, had studied science at the University of Alberta but was expelled after being caught cheating."
http://o.canada.com/news/national/b...w-and-mental-health-concerns-documents-reveal

Valerie Fortney ‏@ValFortney 43s43 seconds ago
Doreen #Garland says accused was admitted to medical school at U of A. Afer a few months, "he seemed to have had a breakdown" and left.

Although I suppose it is completely possible that this "Breakdown" occurred due to the fact that he was caught cheating, and was expelled from school.

 

[dogmatica]

BBM

I don't need a picture or video to figure out that the three victims were mortally wounded before they left their home. It was widely reported that two of the victims were in medical distress, and nothing reported about the third victim. The 8 metre blood trail spoke volumes (and litres).

Is it actually possible to wash a diaper? I know that doesn't work with pampers.
Diaper / dipe-er? Six of one half a dozen of the other. Diapers can't be washed and everyone except USA defense attorneys know that dIapers explode.

The fact it that although Garland fantasized about torturing Alvin Liknes and his wife, there is no evidence that torture happened. In fact, it appears that the victims were mortally wounded at the Liknes rental property.

Kathryn Liknes DNA on the meat hooks ... does that mean that she was the only survivor of the brutal attack in their home during the night?

Total speculation on your part that they were mortally wounded at their house. And the prosecution has stated they were killed at the farm. Also, AL and NO DNA was found on the saw at the farm as well.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

I remember that after DG was first arrested then let go, he was told sternly (repeatedly) that he was NOT to return to his parent's farm as it had been seized and was under investigation. DG ended up staying at a hotel in Airdrie, pretty much across the highway from his parent's property. One night he was attempting to make his way over there...on foot but he was nabbed by authorities. Perhaps, he was hoping to grab the $ and take off.

I think you're right. It goes to show you that DG still thought he could outsmart the police. If he was really smart he would have found somewhere close by but off the property to stash a getaway kit

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[garbagetweet]

Total speculation on your part that they were mortally wounded at their house. And the prosecution has stated they were killed at the farm. Also, AL and NO DNA was found on the saw at the farm as well.

Thus far we haven't heard of any DNA results though. We've only heard that DNA has been recovered.

 

[musicaljoke]

I am beginning to think that maybe DG has all these fetishes or 'preferences' (whatever you'd like to call them), but perhaps did not bring them into play for this kidnapping and murder. They could all be red herrings - the shoes, diapers, straightjacket, wigs, all of these things. Thoughts?
Chemicals to aid with disposal, chloroform, some method of restraint - yes, but the rest, I'm not sure about.
Does anyone else think that perhaps the murders were just that, murders (and body disposal), and that none of the other (sideshow) stuff actually comes into play?
Just pondering, I'm not committed to this.
I think we will definitely get the answer next week.
All MOO

Sometimes when I try to understand the situation in terms of what a typical murderer might do, I delete all the weird extraneous things from my mind. However, evidence from DG's life history strongly suggests that he has a long-term, serious personality disorder, so I think that he is capable of any amount of sideshow stuff that defies logic.

moo

 

[sublimemumma]

BBM

I don't need a picture or video to figure out that the three victims were mortally wounded before they left their home. It was widely reported that two of the victims were in medical distress, and nothing reported about the third victim. The 8 metre blood trail spoke volumes (and litres).

Is it actually possible to wash a diaper? I know that doesn't work with pampers.
Diaper / dipe-er? Six of one half a dozen of the other. Diapers can't be washed and everyone except USA defense attorneys know that dIapers explode.

The fact it that although Garland fantasized about torturing Alvin Liknes and his wife, there is no evidence that torture happened. In fact, it appears that the victims were mortally wounded at the Liknes rental property.

Kathryn Liknes DNA on the meat hooks ... does that mean that she was the only survivor of the brutal attack in their home during the night?

I wasn't saying that I thought nothing happened as far as torture because I fully believe this man is capable of horrendous things, but as far as "proof" that the defence can't shadow doubt on all the "things" they found maybe easily explained by defence. With the DNA on the meat hooks, they have proved that Garland didn't leave gunfire prints on them so how do the young prove that HE was the one to use them. As for the diaper I was referring referring it was reusable one thus can be used and washed many times over again.

 

[Tealgrove]

The Toyota key fob retrieved from the ashes sent me on a deep thinking mission last night. The discussion of whether DG took it or whether it was in AL's pocket stuck in my head. This morning as I was driving to work it hit me.

I believe DG made AL and NO get dressed and the reason I think this is because:

1.The Amber Alert describes the clothes that NO was wearing. It was the shorts and the top not the pink pj's. JO KNOWS he went to bed in the pj's. NO was last seen to JO in those pj's. JO was taken back into the house to go through it to see if anything was missing. I think NO's shorts and top were missing and that's why the Amber Alert says he was wearing the shorts and top.

2.If NO was made to dress, I'm taking a shot in the dark, that AL was told to dress as well and that's where the key fob comes from.

3.The Amber Alert was for NO and AL. We all agree that KL was not in the Amber Alert and we know that someone was badly injured inside that house. I believe we are all on the same page to say that it was KL that took the severe beating. The police said someone was in dire need of medical attention. I'm quite sure it was KL. She may not have been made to dress but we don't know.

If the police have proof of missing clothes, this may be where their theory that they were alive when they left the house, and alive at the farm, has come from.

Just thinking out loud and MOO :thinking:

 

[dogmatica]

Thus far we haven't heard of any DNA results though. We've only heard that DNA has been recovered.

The Crown said in its opening statement that they found the vic's DNA on meathooks and a saw - I'm assuming they'll present this evidence at some point. Otherwise they wouldn't have said it on opening.

 

[dogmatica]

The Toyota key fob retrieved from the ashes sent me on a deep thinking mission last night. The discussion of whether DG took it or whether it was in AL's pocket stuck in my head. This morning as I was driving to work it hit me.

I believe DG made AL and NO get dressed and the reason I think this is because:

1.The Amber Alert describes the clothes that NO was wearing. It was the shorts and the top not the pink pj's. JO KNOWS he went to bed in the pj's. NO was last seen to JO in those pj's. JO was taken back into the house to go through it to see if anything was missing. I think NO's shorts and top were missing and that's why the Amber Alert says he was wearing the shorts and top.

2.If NO was made to dress, I'm taking a shot in the dark, that AL was told to dress as well and that's where the key fob comes from.

3.The Amber Alert was for NO and AL. We all agree that KL was not in the Amber Alert and we know that someone was badly injured inside that house. I believe we are all on the same page to say that it was KL that took the severe beating. The police said someone was in dire need of medical attention. I'm quite sure it was KL. She may not have been made to dress but we don't know.

If the police have proof of missing clothes, this may be where their theory that they were alive when they left the house, and alive at the farm, has come from.

Just thinking out loud and MOO :thinking:

From what I understand, an Amber Alert is for people under 18.

 

[ABro]

3.The Amber Alert was for NO and AL. We all agree that KL was not in the Amber Alert and we know that someone was badly injured inside that house. I believe we are all on the same page to say that it was KL that took the severe beating. The police said someone was in dire need of medical attention. I'm quite sure it was KL. She may not have been made to dress but we don't know.

Not sure how this myth about the Amber alert not including KL took hold. It's just plain wrong as searching news stories published at the time will show clearly.

Police in Calgary have issued an Amber Alert for a five-year-old child and his grandparents after the trio was reported missing Monday morning.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/disapp...parents-being-treated-as-suspicious-1.1893881

All this speculation about one person being more severely injured than the other is based purely on speculation and erroneous interpretations that the Amber alert did not mention KL.

ETA: It is correct that Amber alerts are for children but they will often mention an accompanying adult as in the case of a possible parent abduction.

 

[dogmatica]

Not sure how this myth about the Amber alert not including KL took hold. It's just plain wrong as searching news stories published at the time will show clearly.



http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/disapp...parents-being-treated-as-suspicious-1.1893881

All this speculation about one person being more severely injured than the other is based purely on speculation and erroneous interpretations that the Amber alert did not mention KL.

ETA: It is correct that Amber alerts are for children but they will often mention an accompanying adult as in the case of a possible parent abduction.

http://www.calgary.ca/cps/Pages/Amber-Alert-Program/AMBER-Alert-Program-in-Alberta.aspx

Amber Alerts are not for adults, unless they have a mental or physical disability.The AA was for Nathan only.

 

[Hatfield]

JMO
From trial testimony so far I dont think we can say for sure whether anyone was alive when they left the first home. I am not sure we will ever be able to say for sure one way or another.

How we may be able to tell is when the DNA experts testify. If they testify that the only blood at the first house belonged to one or two of the victims then that will be a good sign that at least one of them left the house alive.

Even that is not foolproof though because someone could have been clobbered really hard in the head area and maybe no blood happened and they may have still died. Or a heart attack even.

The trouble we have with the blood evidence at the farm is that could have been as he was dismembering the bodies and getting rid of evidence. It doesnt speak to whether they were alive there at the farm.

As far as clothes and amber alert. I think NO had put the PJs over his shorts so I dont think we can assume he changed as he was leaving the house. I think what may have happened is DG chased him down and grabbed at him and in the process his PJ bottoms may have come off as DG captured him while the boy was pulling away from him.
As they were leaving I think NO grabbed the green sweater or DG may have told him to put that on as they were leaving thinking it was his. Or he may have been knocked out too and DG just took the sweater along. Its hard to say for sure one way or the other on things.

There just isnt a lot right now to tell us for sure who may have been alive when they left. Maybe the DNA evidence will help.