Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #23

[Blue Amethyst]

Going back to the very first page Sillybily did a great Timeline with information on the case. Great reading.

 

[ABro]

http://www.calgary.ca/cps/Pages/Amber-Alert-Program/AMBER-Alert-Program-in-Alberta.aspx

Amber Alerts are not for adults, unless they have a mental or physical disability.The AA was for Nathan only.

Agreed, but as I said they often mention/include accompanying adults.

There is a lot of false information in this thread about how the Amber Alert was only for Nathan and his grandfather. This is wrong.

The Amber alert was for Nathan and mentioned he was with his missing grandparents, both of them.

 

[deugirtni]

A weekly meeting is a bit usual from my experience working in mental health in BC. Usually, clients that are more acute in their illness are seen weekly/bi weekly and then once stable they move to monthly or biweekly. In the BC mental health system you'd see a therapist through your mental health team for sessions/counselling and the doctor (psychiatrist) less often - sort of like when you go to the dentist; the hygienist does all the cleaning and dentist checks things over at the end.

Could be a couple things - he was receiving an injection psychiatric med he had to go for, participated in a group weekly, wasn't really at the psychiatrist every week but told his parents this, or really was seeing a psychiatrist that often - maybe a long standing thing? Not sure how long the courts could mandate him going? If it was mandated through the health system he would be essentially committed under the mental health act or similar in Alberta - which means he were a threat to himself of others and since this didn't come up I doubt this is the case.

Doug strikes me as quiet, unassuming - I think it was very likely he behaved in his sessions as he did when taken to the police station. Calm and quiet.

I would think if his symptoms were acute - meaning he was in the midst of an episode or having a breakdown we would have heard more from defense about competency and we haven't.

Is it possible that DG's folks may refer to his mental health professional as a Psychiatrist, when it is really something else? ie psychologist, clinic, counselling with whichever kind of counsellor or even self-help group session? NA? Whatever?

 

[joanofarc]

I am wondering about the mapping company's aerial photos the Crown has & if this may show somehow that they were still alive at the farm i.e. more than one photo taken within a short time frame or if the pilots could see movement from the air??

 

[gunner.]

Another one that has been watching and reading since the first day of this case in 2014 has finally been convinced to register. :blushing: Thanks to all for the thought-provoking insights and sleuthing all this time - had me up reading late into the night much too often!

A few thoughts I need to share:

- the Toyota key fob - has anyone else considered that DG may have previously broken into the house via non-damaging lock picking (would take longer but be more subtle so he could re-enter without suspicion) for both casing the house (thinking of especially that he knew the house layout and the knowledge of the VOIP phone) and to satisfy his own perverse obsessions (power trip / dominance over AL by being in his personal space, perhaps taking anything from KL's closet for his own sick uses) but also that he may have taken a spare key to have access to the vehicle. I'm wondering if he ever thought of damaging it (brake lines, etc), placing an explosive or even just bugging it electronically. I would think a spare key wouldn't be noticed missing right away, and even if so if it was me, I would assume I had misplaced it myself. This might also have something to do with the 'listening device', maybe he planted something in their home or on a phone line at that time as well.

I have also wondered about 2 scenarios for sleep arrangements:

1 - if KL carried Nathan upstairs to sleep in the guest bed after JO left, then went to sleep in her own bed. If DG went to their room first and incapacitated them as planned (thinking of handcuffs, not chemicals) and the noise woke Nathan up after. It's possible that Nathan crying or walking into the master bedroom would set the grandparents into a physical altercation, knocking the TV and fighting DG with everything they had.

2 - if KL went upstairs with Nathan and slept with him in the guest room, is it possible that DG in the dark went straight to the master bedroom did not realize KL was not in the bed, incapacitated AL (thinking of a chemical injection here) or started to somehow 'deal with him'. If KL heard some noise and came into the master bedroom, saw someone over her husband and hit him over the head there would be lots of bleeding from a head wound. I'm very curious just whose blood was in the house.

Thank you all for your great theories and ideas. I live on an acreage in the area of DG's former property so I'll contribute anything relevant in that regard if it comes up again.

 

[Slebby]

I have been meaning to ask that very question! Many people use the term Psychiatrist and Psychologist interchangeably, not knowing there is a difference.
imo

Edit to add - sorry, this was meant to be in reply to deguirtni - I'm not used to posting here from anywhere other than my ipad.

 

[Sprigs]

When I read the original Amber Alert article http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...who-may-be-with-grandparents/article19401260/
it stated:
Nathan O’Brien is described as three feet tall, with curly blonde hair and last seen wearing peach-coloured shorts and a blue-striped hoodie.Alvin Liknes is six feet tall, 200 pounds with grey and blond hair and was wearing black shorts. Alvin has a distinctive walk. Kathryn Liknes is five foot three, 120 pounds with reddish-brown hair and green eyes.

So no reference to what KL was wearing, but there is to the AL and NO - perhaps these items were unaccounted for from the home? And if AL was wearing or made to put on his black shorts then perhaps key fob was in them.

 

[Sprigs]

What struck me as usual was the time 8:00 so I started searching Calgary psychiatrists to see if I could track one down with early am hours. When I struck on the hospital the diapers had come from I saw they do have out patient program with hours that early. I think he probably stole things when I/ he could because there is some thrill in that for him.

In other cases where mental health was going to be a factor psych assessments played heavily in the pre-trial lead ups. I think it's important to note - MANY people deal with mental health issues and are not a threat to others. But, for DG I think he has MH issues but also personality disorder which can be far less treatable. I wish we knew who his past assault charge was against - a family member/business associate?

It doesn't appear defense is using a not criminally responsible argument - hard to see how they will defend him as the evidence mounts.

 

[deugirtni]

I believe the hacksaw and meat hooks were only tested for DNA.

Is that 'normal' in a high profile triple murder investigation to NOT check for fingerprints the tools they suspect were used in either the murdering and/or dismembering of the victims, and to only check for DNA?

 

[JadeSLeuth]

The Toyota key fob retrieved from the ashes sent me on a deep thinking mission last night. The discussion of whether DG took it or whether it was in AL's pocket stuck in my head. This morning as I was driving to work it hit me.

I believe DG made AL and NO get dressed and the reason I think this is because:

1.The Amber Alert describes the clothes that NO was wearing. It was the shorts and the top not the pink pj's. JO KNOWS he went to bed in the pj's. NO was last seen to JO in those pj's. JO was taken back into the house to go through it to see if anything was missing. I think NO's shorts and top were missing and that's why the Amber Alert says he was wearing the shorts and top.

2.If NO was made to dress, I'm taking a shot in the dark, that AL was told to dress as well and that's where the key fob comes from.

3.The Amber Alert was for NO and AL. We all agree that KL was not in the Amber Alert and we know that someone was badly injured inside that house. I believe we are all on the same page to say that it was KL that took the severe beating. The police said someone was in dire need of medical attention. I'm quite sure it was KL. She may not have been made to dress but we don't know.

If the police have proof of missing clothes, this may be where their theory that they were alive when they left the house, and alive at the farm, has come from.

Just thinking out loud and MOO :thinking:

:goodpost:

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Another one that has been watching and reading since the first day of this case in 2014 has finally been convinced to register. :blushing: Thanks to all for the thought-provoking insights and sleuthing all this time - had me up reading late into the night much too often!

A few thoughts I need to share:

- the Toyota key fob - has anyone else considered that DG may have previously broken into the house via non-damaging lock picking (would take longer but be more subtle so he could re-enter without suspicion) for both casing the house (thinking of especially that he knew the house layout and the knowledge of the VOIP phone) and to satisfy his own perverse obsessions (power trip / dominance over AL by being in his personal space, perhaps taking anything from KL's closet for his own sick uses) but also that he may have taken a spare key to have access to the vehicle. I'm wondering if he ever thought of damaging it (brake lines, etc), placing an explosive or even just bugging it electronically. I would think a spare key wouldn't be noticed missing right away, and even if so if it was me, I would assume I had misplaced it myself. This might also have something to do with the 'listening device', maybe he planted something in their home or on a phone line at that time as well.

I have also wondered about 2 scenarios for sleep arrangements:

1 - if KL carried Nathan upstairs to sleep in the guest bed after JO left, then went to sleep in her own bed. If DG went to their room first and incapacitated them as planned (thinking of handcuffs, not chemicals) and the noise woke Nathan up after. It's possible that Nathan crying or walking into the master bedroom would set the grandparents into a physical altercation, knocking the TV and fighting DG with everything they had.

2 - if KL went upstairs with Nathan and slept with him in the guest room, is it possible that DG in the dark went straight to the master bedroom did not realize KL was not in the bed, incapacitated AL (thinking of a chemical injection here) or started to somehow 'deal with him'. If KL heard some noise and came into the master bedroom, saw someone over her husband and hit him over the head there would be lots of bleeding from a head wound. I'm very curious just whose blood was in the house.

Thank you all for your great theories and ideas. I live on an acreage in the area of DG's former property so I'll contribute anything relevant in that regard if it comes up again.

Fantastic post! Welcome gunner! Thanks for contributing!

 

[clydeslueth]

Guys,

Correct me if I'm wrong but in order for Nathan's charge to be upgraded to first degree, one of the conditions would have likely had to have been met right? In this case likely kidnapping.

If it was kidnapping does this not naturally mean that he was alive when he was taken from the house, otherwise if he was killed at the house it would be 2nd degree for Nathan, no?

 

[JadeSLeuth]

I would swear up and down that the Amber Alert at one point said "Nathan may be in the company of his Grandfather" and that is where the discussion of Kathy being included or not originated. Does anyone else remember this? We puzzled over that quite a lot in the beginning. Otto, maybe you recall this, or Lois or Lala?

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Guys,

Correct me if I'm wrong but in order for Nathan's charge to be upgraded to first degree, one of the conditions would have likely had to have been met right? In this case likely kidnapping.

If it was kidnapping does this not naturally mean that he was alive when he was taken from the house, otherwise if he was killed at the house it would be 2nd degree for Nathan, no?

Welcome Clydeslueth!
I'm not good with that stuff, but I know that other posters here are, hopefully one will chime in.
I hope one of our verified Canadian legal experts/lawyers joins us - that would be amazingly helpful.

:welcome6:

 

[JadeSLeuth]

I would swear up and down that the Amber Alert at one point said "Nathan may be in the company of his Grandfather" and that is where the discussion of Kathy being included or not originated. Does anyone else remember this? We puzzled over that quite a lot in the beginning. Otto, maybe you recall this, or Lois or Lala?

Here it is! The Amber Alert I mentioned above.

[video=youtube;0fgj6E9Rhic]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fgj6E9Rhic[/video]

 

[deugirtni]

I have been meaning to ask that very question! Many people use the term Psychiatrist and Psychologist interchangeably, not knowing there is a difference.
imo

Edit to add - sorry, this was meant to be in reply to deguirtni - I'm not used to posting here from anywhere other than my ipad.

Yes, many do not understand the difference, and further, pretty much anyone can hang out a sign to offer counselling services, mental health assistance, grief counselling, spiritual counselling, family counselling, whatever. They could be MSWs, PhDs, or just ... whatever. I don't think there is even any government regulation in regard to counselling services or group therapies, or whatever. Back in the day when the elderly Gs were younger adults, they likely didn't have all of the varieties of treatment options they do today, and may just refer to everything as 'psychiatrist'. Considering that psychiatrists are covered by provincial healthcare (at least they are in Ontario), and considering the shortage of psychiatrists, and considering that it's likely that his therapy was not ongoing as part of the mandated treatment from his release from prison, I really can't see him attending a weekly 'psychiatrist' appointment as an outpatient. jmo. DG could also have had further and more recent convictions, for which he was mandated to seek therapy, so it *could* have been a psychiatrist, but not long-term.. did the mother say it was ongoing over a long term, or just that it was weekly at that time?

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Amber Alert again, clip below and at the link: http://www.630ched.com/2014/06/30/alberta-amber-alert-for-missing-5-year-old-boy/
IMO This is why some posters say that Kathryn was not included in the Amber Alert. She was mentioned, but it was the specific wording (which we discussed at the time) that caused great interest for us.

"Nathan may be in the company of his grandfather Alvin Liknes, a white male, 6 feet tall, 200 lbs with grey and blond hair, black shorts.
Alvin has a distinctive walk. His grandmother Kathryn Liknes is described as 5 foot 3 tall, 120 pounds with red and brown hair and green eyes."

http://www.630ched.com/2014/06/30/alberta-amber-alert-for-missing-5-year-old-boy/

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Is that 'normal' in a high profile triple murder investigation to NOT check for fingerprints the tools they suspect were used in either the murdering and/or dismembering of the victims, and to only check for DNA?

Yeah, what's up with that? I guess they could see that it had been recently cleaned??? But whoever cleaned would leave prints most likely, no?

 

[JadeSLeuth]

- the Toyota key fob - has anyone else considered that DG may have previously broken into the house via non-damaging lock picking (would take longer but be more subtle so he could re-enter without suspicion) for both casing the house (thinking of especially that he knew the house layout and the knowledge of the VOIP phone) and to satisfy his own perverse obsessions (power trip / dominance over AL by being in his personal space, perhaps taking anything from KL's closet for his own sick uses) but also that he may have taken a spare key to have access to the vehicle.
.

Snipped for brevity. BBM. Yes, this! DG was definitely creeping around at some point - getting the lock model number, checking for neighbours' habits, sneaking around getting who knows what info together. Easily could have found an opportunity to grab that fob! He could have snuck into the estate sale and seen it laying somewhere and pocketed it. Great thinking. The fob would get him into the Toyota and possibly the garage too.

All that said, I think the fob was in AL's pocket and that AL was dressed in day clothes, but the above scenarios are very plausible IMO
MOOOOOOOOO

 

[ABro]

Is that 'normal' in a high profile triple murder investigation to NOT check for fingerprints the tools they suspect were used in either the murdering and/or dismembering of the victims, and to only check for DNA?

Yes.

We've just heard the guy had gloves and a Tyvek suit so what are the chances he left fingerprints? Also, what are fingerprints going to tell you that the other evidence doesn't?

What the investigators really needed to piece together is what happened to the victims. For that, they need DNA.

Resources aren't unlimited and they've already spent a lot on this case.

Also, there appear to be different theories on how collecting DNA may or may not interfere with fingerprint processing and vice versa.

http://www.guardianforensicsciences.com/effect-of-fingerprint-processing-on-dna-analysis.html