Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #23

[Slebby]

I would swear up and down that the Amber Alert at one point said "Nathan may be in the company of his Grandfather" and that is where the discussion of Kathy being included or not originated. Does anyone else remember this? We puzzled over that quite a lot in the beginning. Otto, maybe you recall this, or Lois or Lala?

Yes, I remember that as well. But looking back at some of the media links at the start of the thread, I can't find any that are consistent with that memory.


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[Slebby]

Is that 'normal' in a high profile triple murder investigation to NOT check for fingerprints the tools they suspect were used in either the murdering and/or dismembering of the victims, and to only check for DNA?

DG lived there, the tools were in his home. Even if they found fingerprints, so what? Whose fingerprints would you expect to find except those of occupants of the home? Easy to explain ways fingerprints. DNA, that's another story.
IMO


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[Slebby]

Re the key fob - MOO, I think the key fob was an unexpected or overlooked detail that DG didn't catch. If DG had taken the fob, he would not, IMO, have kept such a potentially incriminating object around.

Apparently I'm less of a pajama wearer than a lot of posters. My hubby doesn't own any. It is not unusual for hubby or I to go to bed in the sweats or shorts and t shirt we wore for lounging around or tv watching at night.

I think it's very possible AL or even KL had the key in their pocket. After a long weekend of estate sales, moving things around, the house was a bit upside down from clearing things out, and the usual way of doing things - cleaning up, getting ready for bed - fell by the way. Someone suggested AL may have fallen asleep on a chair or couch, I can totally see that happening. Half the time, my hubby does that, and doesn't come to bed until the middle of the night.
DG may not have been aware of the key fob at all when he tossed heavy, blood-laden clothing into a burn. I think he would have had the sense to know something like that would not be completely destroyed and could potentially be linked to AL and his truck.

MOO


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[deugirtni]

Yes.

We've just heard the guy had gloves and a Tyvek suit so what are the chances he left fingerprints? Also, what are fingerprints going to tell you that the other evidence doesn't?

What the investigators really needed to piece together is what happened to the victims. For that, they need DNA.

Resources aren't unlimited and they've already spent a lot on this case.

Also, there appear to be different theories on how collecting DNA may or may not interfere with fingerprint processing and vice versa.

http://www.guardianforensicsciences.com/effect-of-fingerprint-processing-on-dna-analysis.html

We've heard that LE discovered Tyvek suits/gloves, etc., (new and unused I think it said?) underneath a bed at the G home. I believe they dusted for prints on certain areas of the L home. To try to get prints off of what they deem to be crucial evidence, I would think would be worth it financially. jmo.

 

[otto]

Yes, I remember that as well. But looking back at some of the media links at the start of the thread, I can't find any that are consistent with that memory.


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Post #222
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...athan-O-Brien-5-Calgary-30-June-2014-1/page15

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, I remember that as well. But looking back at some of the media links at the start of the thread, I can't find any that are consistent with that memory.


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At the time, I recall lots of conversation about that. I can't find anything either. The Amber Alerts and all of their updates are available online. They all say the same thing.. that he may be with his grandfather, and they give descriptions... but then they also give the description of the grandmother, even though it isn't specifically said that he may be with her. bbm.

Description:
An AMBER Alert has been issued for the abduction of a 5 year old male
from South West Calgary today. Nathan O’Brien, is a white male, 3 feet
tall, with curly blonde hair. Last seen wearing peach colored shorts and
a blue striped hoody. Nathan may be in the company of his grandfather
Alvin Liknes, a white male, 6 feet tall, 200 lbs with grey and blond hair,
black shorts. Alvin has a distinctive walk. His grandmother Kathryn
Liknes is described as 5foot 3 tall, 120 pounds with red and brown hair
and green eyes.
The child was last seen in the area of MacLeod Trail in South West
Calgary. Anyone with information regarding the child is asked to call
Calgary Police at 4 0 3, 5 3 2, 6 2 3 7
Photos of the Nathan, Alvin and Kathryn are available in the Calgary
Police Service NewsRoom
Instructions:
Do not approach the suspect. Please contact the police if you have any
information.

http://emergencyalert.alberta.ca/alerts/2014/06/2568.html (please note that this link previously led to the above, however it has now been altered to say nothing. At the link, there are several update links listed as well, I believe all of them have been altered to say nothing).

eta: edit to say those alerts WERE available online, they seem to be all altered now.

 

[deugirtni]

DG lived there, the tools were in his home. Even if they found fingerprints, so what? Whose fingerprints would you expect to find except those of occupants of the home? Easy to explain ways fingerprints. DNA, that's another story.
IMO

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God forbid, but, what if they had bothered to seek prints and the prints belonged to someone different?

 

[Georgeo]

Until the DNA evidence is produced, there are so many possibilities that we are all just guessing at what transpired that night. Were they alive enroute to the farm? What were they wearing? Who was attacked first? Were they tortured? So many questions that only DG knows and he ain't talking.

This is guy was sneaky, smart, and seemingly left no fingerprints at the L house. He worked out every detail in advance, except for video of his truck on security cameras. Every criminal seems to mess up on something which unravels their seemingly perfect plan, and DG is no different. The mapping plane taking aerial photos clearly messed up his perfect crime. I just hope that the photos are clear and non-refutable by defence. That, and DNA will be the push that is needed to prove without a doubt that he is guilty.

 

[subwaydreaming]

Until the DNA evidence is produced, there are so many possibilities that we are all just guessing at what transpired that night. Were they alive enroute to the farm? What were they wearing? Who was attacked first? Were they tortured? So many questions that only DG knows and he ain't talking.

A question for the veteran sleuths... Can we expect to have these questions answered in court? Will the Crown piece together a story to describe what they think occurred that night? Right now it feels like we just have a bunch of tidbits that we are stringing together, but no solid story.

 

[Sillybilly]

Wondergirl's post #222

The Alberta Emergency Alert as it was in effect July 1, specifying that NO may be with Alvin:

 

[Snoopster]

A question for the veteran sleuths... Can we expect to have these questions answered in court? Will the Crown piece together a story to describe what they think occurred that night? Right now it feels like we just have a bunch of tidbits that we are stringing together, but no solid story.

What I've seen so far is that the Crown has produced their witnesses related to the collection of the evidence. They only recently began to introduce their witness who were involved in the analysis of the evidence (e.g. the person who analyzed the automobile key fob circuit board).

We know that they will have the person(people?) who analyzed the hard drive called to the stand on Monday. More will surely follow to analyze the various things that were found. After that, I presume they will call of a few experts to provide context for what all of this might mean. Just my guess.

 

[otto]

A question for the veteran sleuths... Can we expect to have these questions answered in court? Will the Crown piece together a story to describe what they think occurred that night? Right now it feels like we just have a bunch of tidbits that we are stringing together, but no solid story.

I think what we're seeing is a solid story. The facts are being presented as foundation. For example, the footprint in the garage was introduced in the context of the Liknes property and abduction. The shoe box for the shoe print was introduced at the Garland property. The facts have to be presented and linked to testimony of who found the print, who examined it, who identified the shoe type, who found the shoe box, and that the shoes are missing. The summation should tell the story in sequence but for now it is facts of evidence.

 

[Rayemonde]

DG lived there, the tools were in his home. Even if they found fingerprints, so what? Whose fingerprints would you expect to find except those of occupants of the home? Easy to explain ways fingerprints. DNA, that's another story.
IMO


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Well, I guess if instead of Garland's fingerprints they found the fingerprints of some random drifter who also happened to be a suspected serial killer it could be quite important...

 

[Krystine]

Does anyone think AL's Tundra might have been part of the plan?
What male wouldn't jump out of bed thinking his truck was being stolen in the middle of the night?
As someone else stated, DG could have found the set of keys/starter in a predictable place during the sale. Or maybe just ordered a set from a dealership.
With AL taken out early on, outside the house, KL would have had to fight with all her might once she realized there was an intruder. It was stated earlier that the group thought Kathy would have been the one that lost the most blood, and would likely have been dragged out of the home.
A criminal under duress, no matter how intelligent, trips up. Maybe the starter was in DG's pocket, and he burned his clothing along with the rest of the evidence and the bodies.

 

[otto]

Does anyone think AL's Tundra might have been part of the plan?
What male wouldn't jump out of bed thinking his truck was being stolen in the middle of the night?
As someone else stated, DG could have found the set of keys/starter in a predictable place during the sale. Or maybe just ordered a set from a dealership.
With AL taken out early on, outside the house, KL would have had to fight with all her might once she realized there was an intruder. It was stated earlier that the group thought Kathy would have been the one that lost the most blood, and would likely have been dragged out of the home.
A criminal under duress, no matter how intelligent, trips up. Maybe the starter was in DG's pocket, and he burned his clothing along with the rest of the evidence and the bodies.

Taking the keys may have been in the same context as unplugging the router. Perhaps Garland was blocking all opportunities for the couple to escape or contact help.

 

[JadeSLeuth]

I'm both excited for, and dreading, Monday.

 

[otto]

I'm both excited for, and dreading, Monday.

What's happening on Monday?
Was there court today?

 

[deugirtni]

I can't remember if this had been posted before. I looked up those shoes (kind of) corresponding to the box that was found at the G home, and it showed the sole. This isn't the 'Delta 2' however, but just the 'Delta' that I found. Not entirely sure from the testimony whether their test sample was an exact match or not, it kind of sounded as if it was iffy to me:


(prints found in L garage)

https://twitter.com/CTVInaSidhu


(label on shoebox found at G home)

https://twitter.com/CTVInaSidhu


(sole of shoe Dr. Scholl's 'Delta' sold at Walmart, but not noted as 'Delta 2'?)

http://i5.walmartimages.ca/images/Large/987/7_4/999999-736701769877_4.jpg
http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/dr-scholls-delta-mens-athletic-shoes-11/714248

 

[JadeSLeuth]

What's happening on Monday?
Was there court today?

No court today. Monday is supposed to be the cyber forensics on the hard drive.... Someone mentioned that the judge had pre-warned jurors of that evidence to come, but I can't think where I read that.... so it may be inaccurate (the warning). Maybe someone else can jump in on that....

 

[YYC]

Plain murder and disposal of bodies only? It is possible, especially if his how-to books (eg how to get away with murder) suggests removing the victim's body if an unexpected fight ensues, and your DNA or clothes fibers may be found on the victim. But why didn't he just get a gun, make a silencer and shoot them? He knew he was going to face two adults and AL was a big man. He could have legally bought a gun by using his fake ID, or perhaps had contacts in his former meth business. I suspect he knew some shady characters.

There was no need to bring his truck right into their driveway and risk detection unless he had planned on taking them to the farm regardless of any complications.

I've been thinking more about why he took the bodies of the victims. I came up with the following theory.

This vile man, but very smart and thorough, when planning all this, knew that his truck would be recorded by CCTV cameras at intersections/businesses surrounding the Parkhill area. By leaving the bodies behind, he knew that the police would have been able to determine a time frame during which death occurred. The sooner after death a body is found, the estimation of time of death is more accurate and precise. In this case, with the discovery likely in the morning, we are looking at a very short time frame of possibly less than 2 hours.

With such a short time frame of death the police would look at the CCTV videos showing vehicles in that time frame only and instead of looking at several thousands of vehicles, the police would look at maybe 100-200 vehicles at that late hour. Then, the police would be able to narrow down this number to maybe 3-4 vehicles (considering only vehicles that came in and out multiple times).

Without the bodies at the crime scene, he calculated, the CCTV camera videos would not provide any value to the police.
If he only knew that his vehicle was recorded just a few houses up the road.

In addition to this, by taking their bodies DG avoided the possibility of leaving behind his DNA on the victims' bodies, such as under the victims' fingernails.

More info on this matter at:
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/LOmar2007.htm