Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #5

[LayzeeDayzee]

Someone earlier had mentioned about the Lickneses having sold their house back in December for $700,000. They must not have had any equity, or wouldn't that equity, or at least KL's 'half', have been seized toward her bankruptcy, since according to what I have been reading here, it is a fairly new bankruptcy, like 2 years? Unless the house was not in her name at all (but doesn't Canadian matrimony laws mean that she automatically owned half of the matrimonial home?) And so they have no personal assets, because their house is sold, and who knows whose name the new house is purchased in? I'm just thinking that if AL's company owed piles of money to someone and he had no recourse and there was no way to get money from AL because everything was now already sold and/or in other people's names, perhaps someone was having bad thoughts about what to do to get revenge.

We still don't know for sure that they purchased a home in Edmonton. Yes their son JL mentioned this at the 1st presser but if you watch it he seems rather hesitant when questioned by reporters about comments from the L's neighbors who claim KL seemed to be telling different neighbors different stories about where they were moving to (she reportedly told some they were moving to Edmonton, some they were moving to Mexico, and some they were moving to Northern Alberta)..........and their Kijiji ads state the reason for their estate sale/selling all items in this home because they were "moving out of the country." Strange and doesn't really make much sense to claim to be moving out of the country if you bought a house in Edmonton and that's where your new home will be. Also seems strange to me, given how close AL and KL were to NO, that they'd move out of Calgary. All IMO.

 

[Sillybilly]

Indeed. Let's all hope they don't let an ounce of apathy or assumption interfere with a full and complete investigation. Wouldn't that be something if they were all found a little worse for wear, locked away somewhere for this whole time...

The lack of information given and careful choice of words, albeit frustrating, is a hopeful sign that they have a lot that they can't talk about yet... fingers crossed.

This is being approached as a Missing Persons case with possibility of homicide. They also have to conduct parallel investigations (one on the presumption and hope they are alive and the other they are deceased). They also have other tips/leads that are being called in that require investigation. I've seen cases where folks have questioned the lack of LE activity or resources, but have to say this is the first time I've seen them being criticized for a massive search effort on the property of a POI.

Sure glad LE didn't mosey onto the Pickton pig farm, have a boo around and say "no bodies here".

 

[deugirtni]

Quite possibly yes. This was tweeted about 4 hours ago so I am thinking it is rather meaningful. I could be wrong but if he is in possession of a stolen card then I make the leap to could it be AL or KL's card and if so that is enough to detain him until they uncover further evidence.

Wouldn't they (LE/MSM) have stated that it was one of the missing persons' cards, if it were? If it indeed were, then wow, that is pretty damning evidence! I'd vote guilty if I was a juror!

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

Pure speculation, but would you hire someone to commit a crime who would knowingly be the #1 suspect in that crime?

Well I'm not a criminal so admittedly don't think like they do.........but if I wanted a job done/wanted some kind of possible revenge against someone, who better to do the dirty work than someonee who:

a) has a well-known family connection w/ victim
b) was previously involved in business with the victim (AL) that ended badly (and may want a bit of his own revenge)
c) has a fairly significant rap sheet/criminal history
d) might welcome the opportunity to make a good chunk of cash

 

[LoriMcA]

According to this article---not sure how accurate it is---the head-on crash killing Matthew Hartley happened on October 28 (a Tuesday), 1980 (not 29th):

"Hartley, then 14, died in a head-on crash near Cardston, Alta. on Oct. 28, 1980, in a collision that also killed his younger sister Jill."

If so, then neither he nor his sister died on the scene, but 1 (sister) and 2 (him) days later, respectively.

I won't speculate on how accurate the Sun newspapers are but they are off on this article. This from 1980 in the Lethbridge Herald. Either/or...tragic accident. I also have their obituaries with the same dates as the original news article ...also from the Herald....

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Well I'm not a criminal so admittedly don't think like they do.........but if I wanted a job done/wanted some kind of possible revenge against someone, who better to do the dirty work than someonee who:

a) has a well-known family connection w/ victim
b) was previously involved in business with the victim (AL) that ended badly (and may want a bit of his own revenge)
c) has a fairly significant rap sheet/criminal history
d) might welcome the opportunity to make a good chunk of cash

Yes... but e) all of the above gets them apprehended very, very quickly... and then questioned by police... and then arranges a deal to testify against the person that hired them.

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

This is being approached as a Missing Persons case with possibility of homicide. They also have to conduct parallel investigations (one on the presumption and hope they are alive and the other they are deceased). They also have other tips/leads that are being called in that require investigation. I've seen cases where folks have questioned the lack of LE activity or resources, but have to say this is the first time I've seen them being criticized for a massive search effort on the property of a POI.

Sure glad LE didn't mosey onto the Pickton pig farm, have a boo around and say "no bodies here".

I'm not sure that sarcasm toward those with differing viewpoints is really necessarily, IMO.

 

[deugirtni]

Please put yourself in the Mother's shoes. At the time of the press conference, we can assume they all knew of the "business" dealings and failures of her Mother's husband, and chances are, they also suspect that played a part in the disappearances. They were probably not allowed to speak publicly about it. (Reward-noreward scenario)

NO's Mother was also the one that chose to leave NO there.

I think it's safe to speculate that there might be some bitterness and blame on his part, given the issue at hand is coming from her side of the family. Her "guilt" might be self imposed. His lack of comforting her, and her seeking some, seems more like a strained relationship, than an act of guilty parties.

Like I said, I absolutely wouldn't want to cast a shadow of any kind on those poor parents, but these things have been bugging me, specifically the 'WAS' part. And yes, I thought about how the dad could perhaps be feeling, with it having been his wife who made the decision to leave the boy there (who would leave their little kid at an age that needs constant supervision during such a hectic, probably stressful time, with all kinds of strangers milling about anyway??? Wouldn't the grandparents have already had quite enough on their plates??), and also because the POI stems from her side of the family, and perhaps who knows what his general personality is like to begin with. But... if it were me in the mother's shoes, I know I would not be able to speak, nor control my tears, but I realize we are all different. Do you recall the Victoria/Tori Stafford case when the mom was speaking publicly to the media every single day, and people were thinking weird things about her potential involvement because of it? It turned out to all be wrong. I'm just having weird red flags popping up, and I'm sure they are also wrong. I just felt a need to get it out and I'm happy that WS exists so that I can do that!

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

Wouldn't they (LE/MSM) have stated that it was one of the missing persons' cards, if it were? If it indeed were, then wow, that is pretty damning evidence! I'd vote guilty if I was a juror!

Response #358 confirms that it was DG found using a bank card w/ Matthew Hartley's name:


"Court records show an additional offence of possessing a TD bank card obtained by a criminal act has been added to the allegation of identity theft Garland now faces.

The charge is from the same date, last Friday, as the allegation he faces involving having identity information in the name of Matthew Hartley."

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/09...related-charge

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Like I said, I absolutely wouldn't want to cast a shadow of any kind on those poor parents, but these things have been bugging me, specifically the 'WAS' part. And yes, I thought about how the dad could perhaps be feeling, with it having been his wife who made the decision to leave the boy there (who would leave their little kid at an age that needs constant supervision during such a hectic, probably stressful time, with all kinds of strangers milling about anyway??? Wouldn't the grandparents have already had quite enough on their plates??), and also because the POI stems from her side of the family, and perhaps who knows what his general personality is like to begin with. But... if it were me in the mother's shoes, I know I would not be able to speak, nor control my tears, but I realize we are all different. Do you recall the Victoria/Tori Stafford case when the mom was speaking publicly to the media every single day, and people were thinking weird things about her potential involvement because of it? It turned out to all be wrong. I'm just having weird red flags popping up, and I'm sure they are also wrong. I just felt a need to get it out and I'm happy that WS exists so that I can do that!

Regardless of what led up to it, their son disappeared and there is no textbook way a person should react. "Is" or "Was", makes for great tv crime drama, but "Was" could also mean she has suffered a great loss, or has prepared herself for the worst. All pure speculation.

I suspect once the truth finally comes out, most likely years from now, all the financial delaings, who was involved, who was covering for whom in front of the cameras and what the eventual fate of the parties involved was... will be picked through again in hindsight, and all fall into place and make more sense.

 

[deugirtni]

We still don't know for sure that they purchased a home in Edmonton. Yes their son JL mentioned this at the 1st presser but if you watch it he seems rather hesitant when questioned by reporters about comments from the L's neighbors who claim KL seemed to be telling different neighbors different stories about where they were moving to (she reportedly told some they were moving to Edmonton, some they were moving to Mexico, and some they were moving to Northern Alberta)..........and their Kijiji ads state the reason for their estate sale/selling all items in this home because they were "moving out of the country." Strange and doesn't really make much sense to claim to be moving out of the country if you bought a house in Edmonton and that's where your new home will be. Also seems strange to me, given how close AL and KL were to NO, that they'd move out of Calgary. All IMO.

Yes, I noticed in the kijiji ads, one says 'out of the country', one says 'out of the province', but I have read/heard numerous times now, that they purchased a house in Edmonton, and that they were going to vacation in Mexico and I think it was Edmonton, and then move into their house.
The Globe & Mail article (found here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/cctv-footage-gives-police-lead-in-missing-calgary-boy-grandparents/article19449772/) states, "The Liknes couple sold their Calgary home about a year ago, leased it back, and were about to go to visit Edmonton and then Mexico. They planned to then move to Edmonton, where they already had purchased a home, family members said. Staff Sgt. Andrus would not say whether the grandparents have cellphones they can track." (not that media always gets everything right !)
I agree that it seems strange for them to leave everyone behind, including NO and their children. But the bankruptcy thing... could be chasing them away.

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm not sure that sarcasm toward those with differing viewpoints is really necessarily, IMO.

I don't know which part you are interpreting as sarcasm so i'll just stop responding to your posts to avoid any future misunderstanding.

 

[deugirtni]

Regardless of what led up to it, their son disappeared and there is no textbook way a person should react. "Is" or "Was", makes for great tv crime drama, but "Was" could also mean she has suffered a great loss, or has prepared herself for the worst. All pure speculation.

I suspect once the truth finally comes out, most likely years from now, all the financial delaings, who was involved, who was covering for whom in front of the cameras and what the eventual fate of the parties involved was... it will all be picked through again in hindsight, and all fall into place and make more sense.

Do you really think the 'WAS' doesn't mean anything? Not a slip of the tongue? If your child was missing for 3 days, would you refer to him in the past tense already, even if not known to be deceased? Wouldn't it be MORE natural to say, 'he is the most loving human being.... ' ?

 

[Sillybilly]

Do you really think the 'WAS' doesn't mean anything? Not a slip of the tongue? If your child was missing for 3 days, would you refer to him in the past tense already, even if not known to be deceased? Wouldn't it be MORE natural to say, 'he is the most loving human being.... ' ?

Those parents are not dealing with a normal/natural situation. After my daughter and my son died I found myself at times referring to them in present tense ... when obviously that was not the case. It's a mixed bag of emotions that no parent should ever have to experience. I feel the mom is aware of a reality that her child may never come home, while hoping beyond hope that is not the case. I don't think we can or should judge her based on an odd-placed word. We observed many more odd-placed words and situations with Tori's mom and it ultimately proved not to be the case.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Do you really think the 'WAS' doesn't mean anything? Not a slip of the tongue? If your child was missing for 3 days, would you refer to him in the past tense already, even if not known to be deceased? Wouldn't it be MORE natural to say, 'he is the most loving human being.... ' ?

My child was the most polite in all of his classes in Elementary School. He was also one of the better players on his team this year. It doesn't mean he is dead, nor does it mean I killed him. It's how parents talk, how people talk, when they think back and remember someone.

 

[deugirtni]

Those parents are not dealing with a normal/natural situation. After my daughter and my son died I found myself at times referring to them in present tense ... when obviously that was not the case. It's a mixed bag of emotions that no parent should ever have to experience. I feel the mom is aware of a reality that her child may never come home, while hoping beyond hope that is not the case. I don't think we can or should judge her based on an odd-placed word. We observed many more odd-placed words and situations with Tori's mom and it ultimately proved not to be the case.

I am so sorry to hear that your daughter and son died, my condolences

 

[deugirtni]

My child was the most polite in all of his classes in Elementary School. He was also one of the better players on his team this year. It doesn't mean he is dead, nor does it mean I killed him. It's how parents talk, how people talk, when they think back and remember someone.

Absolutely, but in your examples, you are also referencing a period in time, where the mother is making a general open statement with no timeline. If I have a son who is my pride and joy for excelling in school, and continuing to excel in school, would I say, 'he was a good student', or 'he is a good student'? If he did well in basketball when he played last year, but doesn't play any more, I'd say, 'my son was a good basketball player'. Past tense. No longer applicable. Don't want to argue though, I just wanted to get other peoples' thoughts on that, so thank you for yours. I'm still feeling weird about that, but under the circumstances, I suppose words can become mixed up.

 

[deugirtni]

By the way, can someone please lead me to where I can find the information about AL's vehicle being taken in for examination? I missed that one, and I'm finding it difficult to find. TY!

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Absolutely, but in your examples, you are also referencing a period in time, where the mother is making a general open statement with no timeline. If I have a son who is my pride and joy for excelling in school, and continuing to excel in school, would I say, 'he was a good student', or 'he is a good student'? If he did well in basketball when he played last year, but doesn't play any more, I'd say, 'my son was a good basketball player'. Past tense. No longer applicable. Don't want to argue though, I just wanted to get other peoples' thoughts on that, so thank you for yours. I'm still feeling weird about that, but under the circumstances, I suppose words can become mixed up.

No argument here, just speculating. We don't know what she saw in the house be it blood, ripped jammies or any one of a million awful things that could create that internal doubt that he may no longer be here. As well, when all you have left to cling to suddenly, is your memories of that person, you reference the time you had them with you.

You could be bang on, who knows... she said she left at 10.

 

[Mel 1303]

Much love to you, Sillybilly.

I dont know what has happened to these people. I dont agree with everyone here, but I do respect the amount of time and effort everyone has put into trying to find any little clue that might make a difference.

I'd just like to say that I am 1000% behind NO's family (yes I meant the 1000, exaggerating on purpose). In the press conference, I saw a woman who either sucked it up and did what she needed to do for her son, or completely lost it. I believe she was comforting her husband because she thought he needed it; she is a mother who nurtures first. I think if anyone had comforted her, she probably would have lost it. I dont put much trust in trying to interpret peoples use of tense. Too many people get tense wrong at the best of times, much less in a bad situation.

Thank you everyone for your contribution- differing opinions are good- they give us something to think about, something to ponder. Whatever has happened, I hope we get answers soon.