Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #8

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Livvy said:
The balloon release is a lovely gesture, however it does kill birds and is certainly not environmentally friendly. I volunteer at a wildlife rehabilitation centre here in central Alberta and have seen quite a few birds injured or dead from balloons, mainly ducks. I mentioned this with alternative ideas on the Facebook discussion page and was promptly banned. Not sure why?

There are other ways for the community to show their support. Flower petals down the river or a tree planting ceremony are two I can think of. Fair to say that this is Alberta and most people don't care about the environment and wildlife. Welcome to oil country!

I will be planting three trees to show my support for this grieving family.
Click to expand...

What about lanterns? Do they also create an environmental hazard?
 
Tealgrove said:
Oh I don't think he is insane at all. I think he has issues and there is a mental instability however he is far from being insane.

Being a sociopath is not about being anti social, in fact lots of sociopaths are very social. They are usually very smart, narcisstic and everything is about them. They can be charming to a fault however they reek havoc with those around them and manipulate people beyond belief. They are cunning and they use people with no regard for anyone other than themselves.

For example, it's not DG's fault that he had to kill people...it's their fault because they did blah blah blah. In essence, it's the victim's fault. A sociopath does not take responsibility nor do they accept blame or fault. A sociopath will never say they are sorry. They have no conscience and think nothing of pitting one person against the other to meet their needs.

I have a family member who is a sociopath. You would love him. He's charming, sweet, and I love him dearly but boy oh boy look out.

I don't know if they will try for an insanity plea. I'm sure they'll try anything but I'm going to guess that they'll come up with a bunch of psychological stuff none of which will label him insane.
Click to expand...
Whew good to hear you aver that! I wasn't clear perhaps that sociopathy is classified as an anti-social personality disorder as opposed to a certifiable psychiatric illness. I know what you mean and yes I have got up close and personal with a couple of them. Charming indeed. DG has been cited as being extremely polite and considerate by a former employer. Now that just scares me out of my little cotton picking socks!
 
Wondergirl said:
Yes, thank-you. I quoted something similar during the presser and I am still catching up on all the videos since yesterday.

Given the 2ND degree charge of murder, the wording by LE and the continued use of the Amber Alert for 2 weeks, it is my opinion, that Nathan walked out of that home that night and LE knows it.

My heart fears that is what happened, and I say fear because I think of what may have occurred after that. Another small piece of me gone, thinking about that precious, innocent boy and what he went through.

JMO
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<bbm>

That's what I don't understand in this case. If Nathan was taken from the home by DG (who did not have lawful care of the child under the age of 16), that should constitute kidnapping:

from CCC 279.1:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/page-144.html


Kidnapping

279. (1) Every person commits an offence who kidnaps a person with intent

(a) to cause the person to be confined or imprisoned against the person&#8217;s will;


(b) to cause the person to be unlawfully sent or transported out of Canada against the person&#8217;s will; or


(c) to hold the person for ransom or to service against the person&#8217;s will.

Marginal note:Punishment

(1.1) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable

(a) if a restricted firearm or prohibited firearm is used in the commission of the offence or if any firearm is used in the commission of the offence and the offence is committed for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with, a criminal organization, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of

(i) in the case of a first offence, five years, and


(ii) in the case of a second or subsequent offence, seven years;


(a.1) in any other case where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years;


(a.2) if the person referred to in paragraph (1)(a), (b) or (c) is under 16 years of age, to imprisonment for life and, unless the person who commits the offence is a parent, guardian or person having the lawful care or charge of the person referred to in that paragraph, to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of five years; and

(b) in any other case, to imprisonment for life.
Click to expand...

As we know from other cases, if death occurs during a felony (one of which is kidnapping), it constitutes 1st degree murder:

see CCC 231.5(e):
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-231.html

If Nathan was kidnapped and died in the custody of the kidnapper, why is there not a 1st degree murder charge against DG as it relates to Nathan?
 
Lanterns? They're made of paper, right? I would think not as bad. Birds suffocate on the balloon rubber.
 
LayzeeDayzee said:
I can completely understand the sentiment and people feeling compelled to show their support, but sending off a few thousands balloons into the atmosphere isn't exactly environmentally conscious, IMO. The poor O'Brien and Liknes families just need privacy, time to process everything, the support of people close to them, time to grieve in their own way for however long it takes. Airdrie is having a large green balloon release (it was at 8pm) and I guess doing this makes outsiders feel better but does this really help the family? I personally don't think so. IMO.
Click to expand...


I think it did

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/10...ly-neighbours-release-balloons-in-his-honour/
 
Livvy said:
Lanterns? They're made of paper, right? I would think not as bad. Birds suffocate on the balloon rubber.
Click to expand...

Perhaps some petals and lanterns in the playground where he played on the swings for the very last time?
 
sillybilly said:
<bbm>

That's what I don't understand in this case. If Nathan was taken from the home by DG (who did not have lawful care of the child under the age of 16), that should constitute kidnapping:

from CCC 279.1:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/page-144.html




As we know from other cases, if death occurs during a felony (one of which is kidnapping), it constitutes 1st degree murder:

see CCC 231.5(e):
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-231.html

If Nathan was kidnapped and died in the custody of the kidnapper, why is there not a 1st degree murder charge against DG as it relates to Nathan?
Click to expand...

You may have answered your own question. You are assuming death didn't occur in the home.

Perhaps more charges will be brought as evidence continues to be collected.
 
Tealgrove said:
Oh I don't think he is insane at all. I think he has issues and there is a mental instability however he is far from being insane.

Being a sociopath is not about being anti social, in fact lots of sociopaths are very social. They are usually very smart, narcisstic and everything is about them. They can be charming to a fault however they reek havoc with those around them and manipulate people beyond belief. They are cunning and they use people with no regard for anyone other than themselves.

For example, it's not DG's fault that he had to kill people...it's their fault because they did blah blah blah. In essence, it's the victim's fault. A sociopath does not take responsibility nor do they accept blame or fault. A sociopath will never say they are sorry. They have no conscience and think nothing of pitting one person against the other to meet their needs.

I have a family member who is a sociopath. You would love him. He's charming, sweet, and I love him dearly but boy oh boy look out.

I don't know if they will try for an insanity plea. I'm sure they'll try anything but I'm going to guess that they'll come up with a bunch of psychological stuff none of which will label him insane.
Click to expand...

In order to plead insanity, i wonder if has to tell where are the bodies.. or he will claim that he had no memory because he was temporally insane and can't remember a thing. Pretty tough uphill for DG I think if they're going for premeditated murder .
 
Livvy said:
Lanterns? They're made of paper, right? I would think not as bad. Birds suffocate on the balloon rubber.
Click to expand...

I came across a photo site for Calgary and there was a lantern event as part of an art show where lanterns were put in one of the rivers and collected later ... was it the Elbow River, or the Bow River near Princess Island Lagoon? A lagoon would make it easier to collect the candle lanterns after these burned out ... could it be done on the Elbow River, or would it result in "river trash"?

Environmentally conscientious green might be planting something or contributing/donating to a butterfly atrium at Stanley Park near Parkhill ... that's a wild thought ... but ... maybe the Garlands could donate their green house ...
 
otto said:
I came across a photo site for Calgary and there was a lantern event as part of an art show where lanterns were put in one of the rivers and collected later ... was it the Elbow River, or the Bow River near Princess Island Lagoon? A lagoon would make it easier to collect the candle lanterns after these burned out ... could it be done on the Elbow River, or would it result in "river trash"?

Environmentally conscientious green might be planting something or contributing/donating to a butterfly atrium at Stanley Park near Parkhill ... that's a wild thought ... but ...
Click to expand...

Oh I love the idea of a butterfly atrium Otto. Then everyone here can participate. Dedicated to Nathan by all at websleuths. A lasting tribute. Love it!
 
Ms.elle said:
When I was in law school I learned that statistically in North America, once an accused person is charged with a crime there is a 75% chance that they will be convicted if the case goes to a jury.

This is regardless of the evidence or the strength of the prosecution's case and is instead because the collective intelligence of the jury is on par with the intelligence of the average fifth grader and juries have a habit of putting a disproportionate amount of faith into police evidence simply because it's police evidence.

The average person considers finger print evidence to be gospel but in reality, fingerprint evidence is LESS reliably accurate than a polygraph test.

I've done a lot of work with the innocence project and can tell you there have actually been cases where someone has been sitting on death row for murder only for the victim to turn up alive and well and prosecutors still fight to maintain their conviction.

The "justice" system is terribly flawed on both sides of the spectrum. Guilty people are sometimes set free AND innocent people sometimes rot their lives away in jail.

What happened to Nathan and his grandparents is reprehensible and I sincerely hope that whoever is responsible for their fate is punished as harshly as the law will allow.

I am really bothered that so many of you have already decided that Douglas Garland is indisputably guilty and are on a virtual witch hunt for other cases to tie him to when not only has there been no trial but we have no idea what the evidence may be that caused police to decide to arrest him in the first place.

These are serious charges and if it does turn out he is wrongly accused, I doubt he will ever bunch back from this experience. I see someone who has made a lot of mistakes and I would argue largely wasted his life. Whether those mistakes include killing 3 innocent people, I don't know.

It's one thing to toss around theories and try to interpret and make sense of whatever information can be uncovered but even if Douglas Garland is guilty of this heinous crime, I think this rush to judgement is absolutely shameful and incredibly insensitive to the O'Brien and Liknes family given how horribly they must be grieving by the loss of Nathan, Kathy and Alvin. And, how they are likely struggling to come to terms with the idea that the man accused of causing their grief is someone that is also a part of their family, someone that they've likely shared birthdays, holidays and other celebrations with.
Click to expand...

Just want to acknowledge and thank you for your comments. It should give us all pause for thought.

Having said that, I would have to admit to coming to my own conclusion - but, yes, I know we have to wait to hear what evidence the Crown has, and that will take quite some time to come out.

As I work in the court system - I'm a court reporter - so, I have sat through many trials, including murder. There are two sides to the story, and in a courtroom setting, you have the Crown or prosecution, and then the defence (defense for US members, lol). Mr. Garland is certainly entitled to his "day in court". And, whether Mr. Garland's mistakes include killing 3 innocent people - I don't know either - but I have a strong feeling LE have the right person. But, I am equally ready to listen to the evidence when this matter reaches that point, and then be able to address just how strong the Crown's case is, or on the other hand, where there are weaknesses.

Personally, I still find it hard to believe one person committed this crime with no outside assistance. That was somewhat lessened when I actually saw footage of him as opposed to a courtroom sketch. And also, because police had laid a first-degree murder charge for Alvin Liknes and Kathyrn Liknes. I really think that the police have some evidence to show this was something that was planned. Again, that will or will not be evident when more details come out.

So, I guess I'm saying I'm pretty convinced he's guilty, but I will and do leave my mind open to hear the Crown facts as well as what his defence will have to say.
 
otto said:
I came across a photo site for Calgary and there was a lantern event as part of an art show where lanterns were put in one of the rivers and collected later ... was it the Elbow River, or the Bow River near Princess Island Lagoon? A lagoon would make it easier to collect the candle lanterns after these burned out ... could it be done on the Elbow River, or would it result in "river trash"?

Environmentally conscientious green might be planting something or contributing/donating to a butterfly atrium at Stanley Park near Parkhill ... that's a wild thought ... but ... maybe the Garlands could donate their green house ...
Click to expand...

As an American on this thread, forget about "environmentally conscious" right now.

Let's do whatever will LOUDLY convey the
Message that we are thinking of Nathan, Kathy and Alvin!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
naz said:
In order to plead insanity, i wonder if has to tell where are the bodies.. or he will claim that he had no memory because he was temporally insane and can't remember a thing. Pretty tough uphill for DG I think if they're going for premeditated murder .
Click to expand...

Would it be true that if he could tell the location of the bodies, he was sane at the time of the murder, and if he can't remember where he put the bodies, he might be nuts?
If he prepped for the murder two weeks in advance, one only need demonstrate that it took seven years to get that far ... he thought of everything ... and most likely was only caught because Nathan was also missing. Premeditated could be mitigated in terms of the big picture.
 
I am still having such a hard time believing that someone could hurt a child like that. The more I read about theories that Nathan walked out of the house breaks my heart even more. He must have been so scared. I just can't stop thinking about him, his grandparents and his family.
 
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