CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

[dotr]

Audio of profiler, posted by N/T on the Valerie L. thread (thanks)
After all the chitchat about weather ect. this radio interview concerning perps in the Gatineau area, gets pretty interesting.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/jon-hansen/2011/10/08/buckingham-this-week-friday-sept-30th-2011
Also, posted a little google map on SV thread, with a news item about a perp following schoolgirls in the TO area.....

"Profiling the Abductor . . . Is It Just A Matter of Time Before a Gatineau Woman Falls Prey to a Predator?"

While the Gatineau Police are taking major steps to apprehend a man described as being in his forties, measuring 6 feet and weighing an estimated 240 pounds who, on several occasions has attempted to abduct women in the Gatineau area"

 

[roseofsharon]

Why was AG looking for a photographer for PK's wedding?

Was AG very knowledgeable regarding cameras and photography? I read where she took pictures with her own camera of PK working in her yard.

I always felt that SL had been ambushed and that someone had arranged an appointment with her and as soon as she turned her back, they attacked her and this seems to fit with the same type of attack on AG.

Motive is the big question here if these two cases are connected -- what on earth could be the motive? The perp left SL for dead, so murder was the perp's intention.

This photography thing is too coincidental for there not to be some sort of link.

IMO

 

[Valleyboy]

I doubt that AG or anyone would have contacted SL to do wedding pictures in the Hamilton area when there are hundreds of other studios closer.

The only way she may have been contacted was if she was a friend of the family.

 

[dotr]

http://www.orangeville.com/article/916451--community-waits-for-word-on-mono-assault
This latest incident has left much of the community in a state of “shock and dismay” something so violent could happen again so close to home.


“I would think everyone in Dufferin is shaken by this,” Ryan said, suggesting the attack is particularly troubling given it happened so close to
the holidays.

It suddenly occurred to me after rereading this news post, that maybe someone really liked to upset everyone in a smallish,predictable town especially during the holiday season...

“We’re a rural community and we always pride ourselves on the safety and beauty of the rural environment. Now these things are coming closer and closer to home. It’s very disturbing,” Mono Mayor Laura Ryan said of this week’s attack. “I would think everyone in Dufferin is shaken by this.”
http://www.orangeville.com/article/915772--investigation-into-brutal-attack-continues
Interesting comment regarding dogs.

 

[Sillybilly]

I doubt that AG or anyone would have contacted SL to do wedding pictures in the Hamilton area when there are hundreds of other studios closer.

The only way she may have been contacted was if she was a friend of the family.

AG had originally asked Hartig, who is in Niagara Falls, but yes, he was an acquaintance of AG. IMO, it's nothing for a wedding photographer to travel 60/70+ miles for a once in a lifetime(?) event, and much depends on the personal preference of the couple as it relates to the specific "style" of the photographer. Generally, people don't cheap out on wedding pics. SL may have come highly recommended.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Why was AG looking for a photographer for PK's wedding?

Was AG very knowledgeable regarding cameras and photography? I read where she took pictures with her own camera of PK working in her yard.

I always felt that SL had been ambushed and that someone had arranged an appointment with her and as soon as she turned her back, they attacked her and this seems to fit with the same type of attack on AG.

Motive is the big question here if these two cases are connected -- what on earth could be the motive? The perp left SL for dead, so murder was the perp's intention.

This photography thing is too coincidental for there not to be some sort of link.

IMO

I agree that the photography thing is way too coincidental.

My second comment/question would be for PK (yet again!). Was Audrey like a grandmother for you? I'm asking this because it seems that only a family member of the bride or groom would take the time and energy to try to locate a photographer for someone. And then, two things strike me - Hartig 'wasn't suitable because he didn't have another camera' and PK said he "finally convinced Audrey to attend the wedding."

Somehow, what I just wrote above doesn't make sense to me. Is anyone else having difficulties connecting the dots? :waitasec:

ETA: I wonder if Audrey drove up to Shelley Lorraine's photography studio for a chat with Shelley about PK's wedding? If that happened and Audrey's car was spotted (it's pretty hard to miss!) and the perp saw both Audrey and Shelley together? (Just thinking out loud here.........)

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

The system says I'm too late to edit my post above, so here goes:

Quoted from roseofsharon:

Motive is the big question here if these two cases are connected -- what on earth could be the motive? The perp left SL for dead, so murder was the perp's intention.


I was always thinking that Shelley's attacker had planned to do a total Sonia on Shelley but he was interrupted by something - perhaps the school bus dropping Shelley's children off at home!

 

[dotr]

I just keep coming back to who could possibly work up the kind of anger and energy it would take to sexually assault and brutally kill an ill ,arthritic, elderly woman, who is dressed in a thick coat and wearing running shoes, on a cold winter's night- during the holiday season, with two guard dogs nearby?!

 

[libyana]

We keep coming back to the same thing which I think is a reliable gut feeling. If this is the same perp he must have spent a lot of time seeking women out, probably all summer 2010 and who knows how many women he checked out before he targeted the victims.
This would have taken a lot of time to study habits and lifestyles etc. The perp was very focused, we have to start thinking like him.

 

[libyana]

The attacks were very angry from what we know, in fact from that guys blog I think he is suggesting a ripper.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I just keep coming back to who could possibly work up the kind of anger and energy it would take to sexually assault and brutally kill an ill ,arthritic, elderly woman, who is dressed in a thick coat and wearing running shoes, on a cold winter's night- during the holiday season, with two guard dogs nearby?!

As the profiler said - "look young and look close".

So, it has to be someone who is:
- strong and very angry
- smart enough to (somehow) subdue the dogs from making a loud fuss
- knew how to get Audrey outside, into the garage
- perhaps set up a meeting with Audrey (hence, the coat)
- or, knew Audrey's habits and ambushed her while she was in the garage
- was able to get into the garage

So...............young and close.

 

[roseofsharon]

I just keep coming back to who could possibly work up the kind of anger and energy it would take to sexually assault and brutally kill an ill ,arthritic, elderly woman, who is dressed in a thick coat and wearing running shoes, on a cold winter's night- during the holiday season, with two guard dogs nearby?!

I agree Dotr -- it's quite an image, but more importantly, I think you have brought up a very good point -- if AG had this winter coat on and LE has said she was beaten before she was murdered, does this mean the injuries sustained in the beating were in the head area or would the beating have been so hard that bruising could occur right through AG's winter coat!!

 

[roseofsharon]

As the profiler said - "look young and look close".

So, it has to be someone who is:
- strong and very angry
- smart enough to (somehow) subdue the dogs from making a loud fuss
- knew how to get Audrey outside, into the garage
- perhaps set up a meeting with Audrey (hence, the coat)
- or, knew Audrey's habits and ambushed her while she was in the garage
- was able to get into the garage

So...............young and close.

We know SL sustained massive head injuries, but I don't think LE has ever divulged how the blows were delivered to the victim. AG and SL were ambushed and think about the perp being skilled in some martial art, in that the victims were rendered helpless in a matter of seconds. Just imo

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

But, are all of these linked? I tend to think so but I'm having trouble linking them.:waitasec:

1. Sonia was a nurse and lived in Orangeville.
2. Shelley had a studio in Orangeville and a studio at her home very near Orangeville.
3. Both were brutally attacked.

Now, was the Shelley attacker simply a copycat of Sonia? Perhaps.

How do we link Audrey into all of this?

1. Did Audrey somehow encounter Shelley while searching for a photographer?
2. Did Audrey have a nurse (Sonia??) come to her home for some medical reason?
3. Audrey and Sonia were both brutally assaulted and murdered in a geographical location under 100 miles apart.
4. LE did tell us that the Sonia killer would "likely move to another place".
5. Audrey, Sonia and Shelley were left in remote areas surrounded by trees/woodland. Very out-of-the-way places.

How do we link all three? LE said there is no link - but I'm not so sure.....

Have I missed any other links here?

ETA: LE have said "look young and look close" for Audrey's killer. Are the other two also young and close?

Also, I believe Sonia's boyfriend and Shelley's husband have been ruled out by LE. So, perhaps young and close also applies to Sonia and Shelley.:dunno:

And regarding motive in all three attacks/murders - do psychopathic killers really need a motive? Other than a complete hatred for women and a need to destroy women. And the thrill of demeaning women with their hatred and physical power.

 

[dotr]

LE would know if the attacks were connected if the DNA from AG, matches the DNA from SV's attacker.( Although if there was a connection, perhaps it is from playing sports or a photography class...
Separate from that,after rereading some of these news items related to SV(easy reference)I realized, that if the perp is under 18, they will not be swabbed.Could this be why there has been no match so far?

http://news.nationalpost.com/tag/sonia-varaschin/
“I’m not worried about the timeline.” Police revealed Tuesday they would begin voluntary DNA sampling among a “select group of males” who were at least 18 years old and knew Ms. Varaschin at the time of her death last August."

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

GREAT point, dotr!! In my line of work, I deal with many young offenders. I know it's upsetting to think that someone young (12-16) could be involved in an horrific crime. That said, this age group IS often involved in horrific crimes.

Now that you mention it dotr - I wonder WHY LE asked for swabs for men over the age of 17. Perhaps because there's too much paper work involved in getting the younger ones swabbed. (Parental/guardian permission, etc.) Also, the mere mention of 'someone's child' being a suspect is very upsetting to the community at large.

 

[dotr]

If they rule out the suspects who are of age, it will underline any other suspects who may be underage,even if the don't get their DNA,LE could collect samples, from places teenagers go..

 

[libyana]

Would'nt a teenager be under someones watch more though, as in schools , parents etc.
and any abhorrent behaviour more noticeable. Not to mention driving around and bloodied or missing clothes to explain. But then again someone HAS to know.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Would'nt a teenager be under someones watch more though, as in schools , parents etc.
and any abhorrent behaviour more noticeable. Not to mention driving around and bloodied or missing clothes to explain. But then again someone HAS to know.

Well you'd be surprised, but many (far too many) young people are not supervised well by their parents/guardians/etc. If they were well-supervised and cared for, this world would be a more peaceful and safe place.

Questions for PK (are you still here??)

Did Audrey (to the best of your knowledge) have any interactions with younger people since she retired from teaching? Was there a young teen living/visiting close to Audrey's house?

Thanks.

 

[roseofsharon]

The perp who attacked the Orillia woman looked young -- I don't think he appeared more than 23, but the video wasn't that clear. This crime may have common threads to other attacks as well.

FWIW, I watched one of the tv shows from the USA, I think the ladies first name is Dale and can't remember the name of the show, however, she was trying to profile a perp for a crime where the woman's body was removed from the crime scene and dumped. This Dale lady said (para) when a perp wants to get the victim's body away from the location of the crime, it is because the perp was known to the victim.

I thought this was interesting, as among SV, SL, KF, and AG, only two were removed from the crime scene, so different perp MO's.

Just imo