CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

[dotr]

Which would explain why LE immediately thought perp was known to victim and in AG's case, why it was thought to be random stranger attack. Also wondering if the "swaddling"of the victim in sheets, comforter ect, as in SV's case, indicates familiarity , whereas AG was left on a garage floor. Also wondering if perps close the eyes of a victim if they are known to each other....Audrey's eyes were open.

 

[Kamille]

After reading that recent blog and suggested profile, I can't help but think of DS again. I really don't think he has been ruled out. I just don't think that any DNA was found at the scene or they might have announced it as they did in the case of SV. Or anything else linking him to the crime other than very vague circumstantial evidence. I was under the impression that they did not rule him out but rather said there wasn't enough for a conviction?

I keep thinking of AG going out into her garage late at night for a smoke since she was a night owl and since she hadn't been feeling well she may not have been in the best of moods. Encountering DS on her property when lifting the garage door may have elicited a pretty strong reaction from such a strong willed woman. And may have triggered a rage in him that was deep seated. I believe his sister did indicate that he'd been having issues with his mother and that he had been alone for the Christmas holidays because of it.

Maybe AG had threatened DS with the dogs and was trying to get back in the house to let them out when she was attacked?

And wasn't he picked up in town? So he had left the area and could very easily have found a way to clean up and change clothes and wash off his very big knife that he liked to carry around.

Unless LE absolutely has said that DNA at the crime scene excludes DS, he still seems like the most likely suspect to me.

MOO

 

[Valleyboy]

I thought this was interesting, as among SV, SL, KF, and AG, only two were removed from the crime scene, so different perp MO's.

Just imo

I don't believe that a crime scene was ever established for KF so she may have

been killed in the car and dropped at the same same spot she was killed.

 

[Snoopster]

Not sure if this would be true, but it would seem to me that a young perp would be more rash in action and simply leave the body at the scene of the crime. I just don't see a young person dragging SV's body out of the house and loading her body in a car all by himself. (...unless there was more than one perp involved. I would think that at the scene of a violent, bloody crime it would be somewhat evident that there was more than one perp involved though.)

I am still leaning to a local, who tangentially interacted with Sonia in the community.

It is also possible that this person also had a similar "relationship" with SL. Did SL shop and do business in Orangeville? But why would the attacker go through the 'trouble' of removing SV's body, but not SL's? It was either two different perpetrators or else the person was getting bolder or was interrupted and just didn't have a chance to remove the body. OR, (sorry ....so many alternatives!) the perpetrator lives very close to SV, but not so close to SL.

Sorry for such a confusing post!

 

[libyana]

SL's attack was in the afternoon I believe, and still daylight. Did he think she was still alive,? did he have a car nearby?

 

[Woodland]

I agree that SV and SL could be a victim of the same perp that killed AG - unfortunately I'm not sure who KF is - could someone clarify? Thanks.

Would like to venture an addition of another possible victim in relatively the same area - Penny Warne. She was last seen at 10:00 pm on 11 February 2009 when she finished her shift at a local Wal Mart. She was 57, lived alone in an area largely deserted for the winter and had a dog that was found outside in sub-zero temperature 3 days later after she missed 2 work shifts. The only item identified as missing by a family member was her winter boots and house coat.

No one has any idea what happened to her more than 2 years later.

What I find most interesting in looking at cases like these is the geography. SV and SL lived close to Highway 10. AG lived close to Highway 6 via a short jaunt on Highway 5. PW lived close to Highway 26. By coincidence, all of these highways lead to Owen Sound.

Just my observation.

Where did KF live?

 

[Valleyboy]

KF is Kera Freeland
She lived in Toronto

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/957125--body-found-in-caledon-identified-as-young-escort

 

[Snoopster]

KF is Kara Freeland. She was an escort from Toronto. Her body was found dumped in the Caledon area, but the crime scene is not known.

 

[dotr]

I agree that SV and SL could be a victim of the same perp that killed AG - unfortunately I'm not sure who KF is - could someone clarify? Thanks.

Would like to venture an addition of another possible victim in relatively the same area - Penny Warne. She was last seen at 10:00 pm on 11 February 2009 when she finished her shift at a local Wal Mart. She was 57, lived alone in an area largely deserted for the winter and had a dog that was found outside in sub-zero temperature 3 days later after she missed 2 work shifts. The only item identified as missing by a family member was her winter boots and house coat.

No one has any idea what happened to her more than 2 years later.

What I find most interesting in looking at cases like these is the geography. SV and SL lived close to Highway 10. AG lived close to Highway 6 via a short jaunt on Highway 5. PW lived close to Highway 26. By coincidence, all of these highways lead to Owen Sound.

Just my observation.

Where did KF live?

Here is the WS thread for this tragic young girl.
Found Deceased Canada - Kera Freeland, 20, found in ditch near Caledon ON, March 2011 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Woodland]

I agree with you Snoopster that a young person would be rash in their actions.

What is the maximum age for young in the context of a criminal profile? What is the category after young?

I have 25 and 27 year-old children - they are young imo. My spouse has a 31 year-old child who imo acts much younger than mine. Chuckle, chuckle, my 89 year-old mother-in-law would consider a 65 year-old young.

I would find it helpful if the term young was clarified by the profilers using this term - I don't really know what they are trying to convey or what they are thinking.

 

[roseofsharon]

Which would explain why LE immediately thought perp was known to victim and in AG's case, why it was thought to be random stranger attack. Also wondering if the "swaddling"of the victim in sheets, comforter ect, as in SV's case, indicates familiarity , whereas AG was left on a garage floor. Also wondering if perps close the eyes of a victim if they are known to each other....Audrey's eyes were open.

When the detail about the sheets was reported, my first thought was that it was to absorb the blood, but even though SV's body was swaddled, there was a lot of her blood found at her home. From what has been reported, it could be that SV was attacked the moment she opened her door and was bleeding and then the perp entered her home. It's incredible the lady next door to SV didn't hear a sound!!

IMO SV, SL, and AG were all attacked before they knew what hit them and whoever the perp was, these three women trusted that person to open their door or at least, in SL's case, initially was not afraid of the person. I pray SL regains her short-term memory.

 

[roseofsharon]

I agree with you Snoopster that a young person would be rash in their actions.

What is the maximum age for young in the context of a criminal profile? What is the category after young?

I have 25 and 27 year-old children - they are young imo. My spouse has a 31 year-old child who imo acts much younger than mine. Chuckle, chuckle, my 89 year-old mother-in-law would consider a 65 year-old young.

I would find it helpful if the term young was clarified by the profilers using this term - I don't really know what they are trying to convey or what they are thinking.

This is just moo Woodland, but I would consider young any person under the age of 18 when discussing offenders and their ages.

 

[roseofsharon]

Hmmm, so one must list all the people they would trust, regardless of the time of day, to open their door to without hesitation.

I can think of a few, however, because of these crimes, will absolutely NOT!!!

 

[Woodland]

Imo, the rule of thumb today should be never open your door to anyone you don't know or are not expecting - not even a uniformed officer. At first glance one would not know if they are actually a police officer or not.

Talk through a window to see why they are there - it's easier to tell them to move on if you want to.

 

[roseofsharon]

Imo, the rule of thumb today should be never open your door to anyone you don't know or are not expecting - not even a uniformed officer. At first glance one would not know if they are actually a police officer or not.

Talk through a window to see why they are there - it's easier to tell them to move on if you want to.

Unfortunately, some people do get caught off guard!!

 

[colette]

sniped.... Also wondering if perps close the eyes of a victim if they are known to each other....Audrey's eyes were open.

You really can't go by that, sometimes people's eyes stay open after death even if you try to close them. Then the funeral home has to fix that.

 

[Canadian4]

Imo, the rule of thumb today should be never open your door to anyone you don't know or are not expecting - not even a uniformed officer. At first glance one would not know if they are actually a police officer or not.

Talk through a window to see why they are there - it's easier to tell them to move on if you want to.

I must live a sheltered life because if a uniformed police officer knocked on my door I wouldn't hesitate to open it. I would be caught off guard. Then again I am very rural like Ms Gleave and we don't get random strangers knocking on our door. I don't think she opened the door to an unexpected stranger though because she was wearing her coat. I still think she was expecting someone.
ETA: I agree with you woodland, we should all be more careful.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Trying to understand what LE means by the word "young" - I copied this from the Young Offenders Act:

Definition of youthThe YCJA (Youth Criminal Justice Act) governs the application of criminal and correctional law to those 12 years old or older, but younger than 18 at the time of committing the offence (Section 2 of the YCJA). Youth aged 14 to 18 may be tried and/or sentenced as adults under certain conditions, as described later on in the act. The Criminal Code of Canada, section 13, states "No person shall be convicted of an offence in respect of an act or omission on his or her part while that person was under the age of twelve years."


So this explains why LE only swabbed men aged 18 +. It doesn't explain what LE means by "young and close" though.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I must live a sheltered life because if a uniformed police officer knocked on my door I wouldn't hesitate to open it. I would be caught off guard. Then again I am very rural like Ms Gleave and we don't get random strangers knocking on our door. I don't think she opened the door to an unexpected stranger though because she was wearing her coat. I still think she was expecting someone.
ETA: I agree with you woodland, we should all be more careful.

I also would have opened our door to a uniformed police officer until just recently (after SV, SL and AG). During this recent election, I admit I opened our door to a complete stranger, a young man. He said he was here for one of the provincial parties but I soon got a grip and called my husband down from upstairs. Thankfully, this young man was indeed with one of the people running for election. But that showed me how vulnerable we all can be!

 

[Woodland]

Good point NSU - vulnerability.

It has made me think of more possibilities for AG and others. Could they have opened their door to someone claiming to have been called out for a service call of some kind? Someone claiming to be a police officer, gas inspector, or for the holiday season - someone making a fake delivery or posing as a Salvation Army Officer?

Whether it was one perp or many, imo the perp knew they were knocking on the door of someone home alone. The question is still how did they know that?