CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #6

[2soccermom]

http://www.thehamiltonian.net/2013/01/jon-wells-deaths-shadow.html

"Death's Shadow, by Jon Wells (who is a published author and also writes for our friends at The Hamilton Spectator), is a true to form riveting page turner. Recounting true crime details of four murders in Hamilton (some of which remain unsolved), Jon skillfully captures all aspects of intrigue, while weaving in the human impacts of these tragedies, as well as the grisly and often shocking details of the murders. Second to none with the best of true crime novels, the book has the added lure of Hamilton settings and backdrops. As one reads through the book, one can't help but think "hey- I've been to that place, or I've driven by that place, or I know that family". Often times the book leaves you to think "I can't believe that happened in Hamilton".

Dotr, you can read parts of the book online through Google books: http://books.google.ca/books?id=Hzi...a=X&ei=zAn6UM_QK6nE2gWjyoG4BA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA

-- study of Audrey's case appears in the later part of the book. If you read Wells' work in _The Hamilton Spec_ you'll see this is familiar.

 

[2soccermom]

Forgive the afterthought in a second post, but I find the idea of a purse full of important documents left behind in the house puzzling in a couple of ways. One, who stores all important papers in a purse? Or was that a turn of phrase used to indicate that all papers Audrey was known to have kept in the purse were present after her murder? Still weird. For another, was it typical of Audrey to leave a purse 'out' where it could be seen in the apparently rare occurrences of having a guest inside the house, and thus, who would know specifically what documents were there?

Those really don't add up very well, with the information we have.

Hi LeftCoaster:
Audrey was the daughter of immigrant parents; I know lots of folks from the old country of Audrey's parents' generation who continued to carry their personal papers ON them (in purses and pockets) long after war and totalitarian regimes and who left this legacy with their children. Because Audrey was very private with her space and because she didn't seem an especially materially organized individual (in my understanding of the implications of "hoarding" we have heard), I think it's reasonable to assume the purse left where she last tossed it is not unusual. As to who would know this about her: perhaps her ex-husband might have suggested this info? I'm not sure.

 

[2soccermom]

Does anyone think it is possible there could be a small deadly conspiracy between several of the actors that have been discussed? ....

Now there could be another motive and once someone realized they wanted Audrey dead they, singular or plural, decided to profit from it as well. I know of nothing that would bring them together for any other motive than financial I mean very many of them. Again, could be missing something.

.

RSBM

Gosh: I know these kinds of coalitions of evil exist in the world, but I just have a hard time getting through the idea that financial motive united these otherwise "normal" seeming folk. They would each have to live with the consequences and not crack under the pressure, nor turn to suspicion against each other. I realize there are lots of crimes where collective pecuniary motive exists exactly in this way. But given what we know of these individuals and the scrutiny they would be under by LE, I just really struggle to undertand how there wouldn't be more signs of complicity. ALL parties would have to be pretty cold to fake through. I wish I had more time to research the likelihood of guilt/suspicious behaviour in crimes for financial gain than in those for the macabre pleasure of killing (obviously in the latter, there are many cases of evident mental illness). I have in the previous threads offered my interpretation (defence, really) of the affect and/or behaviours of the individuals under suspicion here so I won't bore folks by repeating them here or risk silencing others' different ideas. But I just think that the adage "know your victim, know your killer" is the integral key here. Audrey stated she believed she would be raped and murdered in her home. She lived an astonishingly private life. She insisted internet acquaintances not ever use her real name in correspondence. She was interested in e-bugging programs, which can run the range from obnoxious disruption or interference to quite personal surveillance. She had two big dogs for "protection." Maybe all of this is just part of the somewhat eccentic character who was Audrey Gleave. But the details niggle at me..... Still, I wholly understand if others don't read the scene the same as I -- after all, I have my own different explanations or interpretations for the details many of you find significant in relation to several of AG's closest friends. I hope LE is doing the best job at understanding all the implications.

 

[Chorley8]

2 Soccer M. - Wouldn't a decades long stalking vendetta against Audrey be hard to hide as well? Most victims of rape aren't privy to what their assailant has planned for them. If we give any credence to the rape/murder premonition: it is far more likely someone made the murder fit the premonition. The perpetrator(s) had no desire to rape Audrey hence the secondary violent "component" that we puzzle over. Continuing with my idea a bit (which I am far from set on either myself):

"Audrey stated she believed she would be raped and murdered in her home. She lived an astonishingly private life. She insisted internet acquaintances not ever use her real name in correspondence. She was interested in e-bugging programs, which can run the range from obnoxious disruption or interference to quite personal surveillance. She had two big dogs for "protection." (Quoting 2Soccermom.)

I think Audrey believed in an external ancient threat and I think those around used these fears to penetrate into her life. Think of all the people she knew: really, none of them could help figure out who was after her? I think one or more "friends" were perpetrating this survellance and stalking all the while they commisserated with Audrey, offered to help her. SillyBilly's recent explorations on these strange "Bary" websites or whatever they were that research is not completed, might be in the right direction. We do have some strange confluences of people playing minor but key roles in the financial end of things who seem to live, exist, cheek by jowl with others on the educational side - strange.

Thinking of the antiquity of the threat: I would ask who knew Audrey for decades?
(That is why my # 1 theory about P.K. is..........set up. Is he really stupid enough to stage himself finding Audrey (?) - completely unnecessary. As far as we know he didn't benefit from the crime.) (Being absent or away at the time doesn't make you innocent either if it is a plot).

I think perps in Audrey's house maybe for days they sent emails including "cabin fever" and Amazing Grace. Audrey still alive quite possibly held in home. Not killed in garage as NSU (I think) "proved" (no blood on car).

 

[Chorley8]

Forgive the afterthought in a second post, but I find the idea of a purse full of important documents left behind in the house puzzling in a couple of ways. One, who stores all important papers in a purse? Or was that a turn of phrase used to indicate that all papers Audrey was known to have kept in the purse were present after her murder? Still weird. For another, was it typical of Audrey to leave a purse 'out' where it could be seen in the apparently rare occurrences of having a guest inside the house, and thus, who would know specifically what documents were there?

Those really don't add up very well, with the information we have.

I agree the claim that anybody knows what was missing is highly suspicious. Knowledge of how Audrey kept her money, banked is very suspicious. I don't think documents in the purse is any old world custom. Those were document probably that were NEEDED to prove the identity of Audrey so they were left deliberately conspicuous. The fact that her banking information was missing is highly highly highly suspicious. I am at a loss to see how it can be explained innocuously. I think we have underestimated the importance of this I have no idea why. Also there were reports that papers were found around the property, just window dressing. I would bet: 1. Papers needed to prove Audrey's identity and get at her money and property were in the purse. 2. Bank info missing for a reason. Also I think there was activity in the house by perps for some purpose unknown to us financial and/or concerning whatever Audrey was investigating - part of the financial motive could be somebody's CAREER. . Amazing Grace videos I think sent by perpetrators "all is well" "I just received a nice email from Audrey".

The story about going around bank to bank asking "does X have an account here" is absurd IMO.

 

[Sillybilly]

Maybe i'm misinterpreting here Chorley, but where are you getting that any threat against Audrey was ancient history? I don't think it was necessarily long ago .. only that her premonition of being "raped and murdered ...." came from David G, whom she apparently maintained contact with in more recent times.

 

[Chorley8]

Maybe i'm misinterpreting here Chorley, but where are you getting that any threat against Audrey was ancient history? I don't think it was necessarily long ago .. only that her premonition of being "raped and murdered ...." came from David G, whom she apparently maintained contact with in more recent times.

"Unlike his brother, David had been in touch with Audrey in recent years. He remembered something she once told him.

Audrey had said she feared she would one day be raped and murdered in her home". Star September 17th 2011

My impression could be wrong is that this is a fear she had had for some time. So you think it was a recent fear? I guess it wouldn't change my theory much obviously I would have to get rid of the word "ancient" - but a lot of the speculation here has been about something a bit further back in Audrey's past hasn't it?

Can someone remind me of who saw Audrey after she was at her friend LV on I think boxing day (?) As I said a while ago in this case I don't trust anyone (though I do fervently hope they are all innocent - I will be a bit happy if there was no treachery from friends in Audrey's demise) - so not trusting anyone - I take it the only person who saw Audrey after boxing day was the vet and that at his home where conveniently there would be no secondary witnesses?

2Soccermom do you find it strange that Audrey would have no direction in the will about the dogs? AND there appeared to be no oral instruction to vet or friends - surely odd, almost impossible?

 

[Sillybilly]

"Unlike his brother, David had been in touch with Audrey in recent years. He remembered something she once told him.

Audrey had said she feared she would one day be raped and murdered in her home". Star September 17th 2011

My impression could be wrong is that this is a fear she had had for some time. So you think it was a recent fear? I guess it wouldn't change my theory much obviously I would have to get rid of the word "ancient" - but a lot of the speculation here has been about something a bit further back in Audrey's past hasn't it?

Can someone remind me of who saw Audrey after she was at her friend LV on I think boxing day (?) As I said a while ago in this case I don't trust anyone (though I do fervently hope they are all innocent - I will be a bit happy if there was no treachery from friends in Audrey's demise) - so not trusting anyone - I take it the only person who saw Audrey after boxing day was the vet and that at his home where conveniently there would be no secondary witnesses?

2Soccermom do you find it strange that Audrey would have no direction in the will about the dogs? AND there appeared to be no oral instruction to vet or friends - surely odd, almost impossible?

Doesn't say when she told David this .. so we can just as easily speculate that it was in more recent years, as opposed to many years ago. Either way is spec

LV supposedly delivered the soup in the morning on Dec 27 (the day after AG had been at LV's for dinner). Then that afternoon, AG went to the vet. IF LV had any ulterior motive on that day, nothing seemed to have transpired because Audrey was alive and feeling well enough to bust out and go to go to the vet's in the afternoon.

http://www.lifenews.ca/thespec/profile/287986--collins-g-dudley

The late Dr. Collins was married and a father, grandfather and great-grandfather who had known Audrey for (iirc) approx 30 years. As a retired vet (presumably up in years), he operated out of his home, so given he had a fairly extensive family, we can't assume there were no witnesses to Audrey having been there.

 

[Hazel]

:angel: I think we need a TIMELINE

It is still not clear to me when Audrey went to the Vet's. Why didn't she mention her intention of going to the Vet that afternoon/evening in the email she sent to PK, when she talks about 'cabin fever'?
This is what was first reported:

“They won’t be euthanized,” said Gleave’s veterinarian, Dudley Collins, who knew her for 30 years and last saw her a couple of days before Christmas.
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/309093--friends-remember-audrey-gleave

 

[Hazel]

according to JW's timeline, the visit took place on the 27th

On Dec. 22, 2010, Audrey met with her retired teacher colleagues at Williams for their regular Wednesday coffee chat.

After Christmas, she felt under the weather. Monday morning, Dec. 27, Audrey emailed Phil and declared she would make her Wednesday coffee meeting come hell or high water. Lynne Vanstone brought her soup.

Monday afternoon she loaded Togi and Schatze into the Camaro and visited veterinarian Dudley Collins in Ancaster to pick up vitamins for the German shepherds. She let the dogs run on his property as usual. She gave him a hug when she left, as she often did.

Later that day, at about 6 p.m., she emailed a friend, Linda. She forwarded Linda the same music video she had sent Phil that morning.

Just after 2 a.m. Wednesday, Dec. 29, a big male chocolate Labrador living on a property across the road from Audrey's barked wildly, although that was not entirely unusual for the dog. Later that morning, Audrey did not make her regular coffee gathering.

http://news.ca.msn.com/ontario/hamilton/audrey%E2%80%99s-story-continues

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

And speaking of timelines - I wonder if Audrey had a calendar/book planner (all retired teachers yearly receive the RTO - Retired Teachers of Ontario little purse planner booklet). I'm thinking of this because I've just written on our kitchen calendar that we have a vet visit coming up this week.

Where did Audrey keep all of her appointments/plans?

:twocents:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Ooooooops, sorry but I'm too late to add to my post above.

QUESTION:

Where did writer Jon Wells get his timeline for the events of Audrey's final days?

Thanks.

 

[Chorley8]

Not much of this timeline really holds up. I can maybe accept the previous coffee klatch meeting. Then at LV's I assume others were there but I do not think we know that. The vet: unless others saw him there sorry I am not convinced. LV bringing soup we don't know that happened. The evidence I would like is from a gas station attendant someone like that. Probably LE has lots of this. LE will know if there were other emails etc. or whether Audrey used computer made calls (I hope).

It would be great if LE would compare notes with LV P.K. and the person who on the memorial site who said they had been welcomed into her home. Not sleuthing anybody on this point just to try to get at what Audrey's real policies were in terms of allowing people into her house. I think another geo direction, towards St. Catherine's not positive.

Anyone know where Audrey got her dogs?

And a recent repost makes clear the Vet was also quoted as saying he saw Audrey before Christmas likely given her illness assuming she was ill which we don't really know.

Author of "hell or high water" not Audrey IMO not PK as has been pointed out on WS oddities of cabin fever after one day and unscientific use of "secondary infection" - sounds like older, less intelligent (than Audrey) probably woman IMO. I think someone in the medical profession could artificially create an "injury" that suggested a male sex maniac. Or someone who hated her.

 

[Chorley8]

And speaking of timelines - I wonder if Audrey had a calendar/book planner (all retired teachers yearly receive the RTO - Retired Teachers of Ontario little purse planner booklet). I'm thinking of this because I've just written on our kitchen calendar that we have a vet visit coming up this week.

Where did Audrey keep all of her appointments/plans?

:twocents:

Very good - and does LE have it?

LV knew Audrey for 30 years according to Spectator. Vet knew Audrey for 30 years according to Spectator. Just to get at the depth of their relationship.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Chorley I tend to agree that the timelines given don't seem to hold up. (I could very easily be mistaken, though!) :blushing:

My husband and I were at my GM dealership this past week because I wanted to get info on the new 'Vette Stingray which will soon be in production. While there, we looked at a Camaro (like Audrey's) which was in for servicing. We wondered HOW Audrey managed to get BOTH dogs in her car.

One dog would have to be stretched out in the very small 'backseat' while the other dog would have to be in the passenger seat. Camaros have extremely small backseats. Maybe large enough for a purse, a briefcase, an umbrella, a scarf.......certainly nothing large. And the so-called 'trunk' is also very small. Camaros are built for speed; they are not built to carry large objects/pets.

:twocents:

-----------------------

ETA: I HOPE LE checked Audrey's car for dog hairs, saliva, mud from their feet, maybe bits of dog treat, etc.

 

[Sillybilly]

Camaros have extremely small backseats. Maybe large enough for a purse, a briefcase, an umbrella, a scarf.......certainly nothing large.

<rsbm>

Maybe there are different model Camaros or different options??

I'm seeing google images of some with a bench or buckets in the back. I have two shepherds, one is breed standard and the other is much larger ... neither of them would have trouble fitting in most of the backseats i'm seeing.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

sillybilly - yes, all Camaros have two bucket seats in the back. If you have two dogs the size of Audrey's dogs, then you'll be correct in saying they'd both fit into any Camaro.

My mistake.............. :blushing:

 

[dotr]

Wondering again about any work done by strangers at Audrey's house after reading this news...
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/01/18/sex-attacker-put-senior-through-nightmarish-ordeal

"An Edmonton man who broke into a 79-year-old woman's home while masked and naked from the waist down, then sexually assaulted, her was put behind bars Friday.

Kevin Abe Morin, 48, was handed a nine-year prison sentence after earlier pleading guilty to breaking into a home and committing a sexual assault causing bodily harm, uttering threats and unlawful confinement.

"This was a horrific crime which seriously violated the complainant in the sanctity of her own home," said Provincial Court Judge John Henderson.

The judge called the sex attack a "targeted home invasion" at a place where the victim was entitled to feel safe.

"This was an offence which was horrific, unimaginable and grossly demeaning," said Henderson. "It is hard to imagine a more terrifying situation which a 79-year-old woman would have to endure."

Snip and bbm


"Court heard Morin had done window repairs at the victim's home a year earlier.

Court also heard Morin "&#8220; a divorced father of three daughters "&#8220; was addicted to crack cocaine and says he was using crack and PCP on the day of the crime".

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

^^^^^^ Well, didn't Audrey have a convection oven installed by someone? And didn't she complain about the guy's work?

Does anyone else remember this?

:twocents:

 

[Sillybilly]

^^^^^^ Well, didn't Audrey have a convection oven installed by someone? And didn't she complain about the guy's work?

Does anyone else remember this?

:twocents:

JW makes reference to it here:

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

IIRC, PK said the guy had been rude to Audrey.