CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #9

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This wikipedia article states that the FBI make a distinction between souvenirs & trophies with regard to murder cases. The article cites "The A to Z Encyclopedia of Serial Killers" by Harold Schechter & David Everitt for the source of this information.

http://www.amazon.ca/Encyclopedia-Serial-Killers-Harold-Schechter/dp/1416521747

From the wikipedia article:

"Murderers' collection of their victims' body parts have also been described as a form of trophy-taking; the FBI draws a distinction between souvenirs and trophies in this regard."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trophy_collecting

Dr. Arntfield also makes this distinction between souvenirs and trophies on page 24 of his book "Murder City". I had 2 other articles saved as well but can't find the links anymore.
 
In "The A to Z Encyclopedia of Serial Killers" (Pg 20) Schechter indicates there is a distinction but "there really isn't much difference between the two".

from:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=zM...ia of Serial Killers" souvenir trophy&f=false

... these items are classified by the FBI as either "souvenirs" or "trophies." "Souvenirs" are defined as items that are used to fuel the fantasies of a serial killer, whereas "trophies" are objects that are saved as proof of his skill.

For all intents and purposes, however, there really isn't much difference between the two. Ultimately, they both serve the same purpose for a serial killer, filling him with a sense of his own power and allowing him to relive his crimes in fantasy as he contemplates his morbid treasures.
 
The one about not knowing if he felt AG would have gone to heaven or hell also. That really wasn't a tough question, imho.
<rsbm>

I got a kick out of PK's comment that "But you have to be OK with an open-ended answer". Um ... actually no, LE isn't ok with that. :floorlaugh:

FWIW, Bessie's link to latest article that re-opened the discussion is already defunct. Here's the google cache for future reference:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...led-audrey-gleave-/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
 
If the terms are interchangable, does the taking of an item (inanimate object or body part) not still give indication towards the offender type?

The act was said to be perverted. If the act refers to the taking of personal effects, when is this considered perverted? Imo there are only so many items one could take that others would consider perverted (undergarments come to mind). Otherwise my mind starts wondering if by souvenir LE mean something else entirely.
 
If the terms are interchangable, does the taking of an item (inanimate object or body part) not still give indication towards the offender type?

The act was said to be perverted. If the act refers to the taking of personal effects, when is this considered perverted? Imo there are only so many items one could take that others would consider perverted (undergarments come to mind). Otherwise my mind starts wondering if by souvenir LE mean something else entirely.

Sadly, until there is a break in this case and an eventual trial, we will never learn what it was that the perp took from AG. Hopefully, as police have stated, they are still actively keeping their eye on certain individuals, and pursuing answers in this case. Isn't the taking of a souvenir more of a serial killer type of activity/trademark? It is coming up to 5 years since AG was murdered, wouldn't there have been another, one or more, similar type of cases if that were true in this case? If, like police have thrown out there, the perp performed the sexual component to throw the investigation off kilter, the taking of the souvenir could also have been done with the same goal - that being to make it appear that it was more of a sexually motivated serial type of killing, as opposed to a one-off done in rage. From what I have read, it seems the 'sexual component' is also the 'souvenir component'.

Weird things in this case.
-Police took DNA samples from AG's dogs. (Why?)
-The dogs were in their pens, instead of protecting AG.
-She was found in her garage with her coat on. (She visited with callers outside of her home, including PK)
-Nothing seems to have been stolen from the home, therefore it appears that theft was not the motive, which one might suspect would BE a motive if it was a random killing by an aimless wanderer breaking in to the home of some elderly woman who lived alone in a rural area, hoping to steal some loot.
-Police determined there was no evidence of a sexually motivated crime even though it initially appeared as such, and is now suspected to have been staged by the killer to look like that. (Killer is therefore intelligent?)
-The original lead detective focused on a homeless man who was then freed due to lack of evidence, the case then taken over by another seasoned detective who ended up committing suicide.
-The dear friend who happened upon AG's horrific murder scene while purportedly delivering cake to her as a late Christmas gift, then takes said cake home and eats it with his wife. (Who would feel like eating after finding your friend that way?)
-The same dear friend, who is a 'devout Christian', has difficulty hypothesizing whether AG would go to heaven or hell.
-Police have stated that although there has been cooperation, cooperation is not the same as telling the truth. (Is this to suggest they suspect the POI (or his loved one(s)) is lying? They have said they don't want to have tunnel vision. They have said it is a high bar to gather enough evidence to lay charges. In reading between the lines, it sounds to me like police have their suspect, but don't yet have enough concrete evidence to lay charges.)

I am wondering if someone known to her came to visit sometime between December 27th, when she last had contact with anyone, and December 30th, when her body was discovered. Perhaps a surprise visit, she quickly penned her dogs, threw on her coat and visited in the garage, away from the weather where she perhaps could also have a cigarette, not feeling like allowing said visitor into her home (it was perhaps more disheveled than usual if she had been feeling under the weather for a few days). A conversation took place.. it was Christmas time, the time of giving.. perhaps a topic was broached, perhaps the caller wondered if he/she could negotiate a loan for a business start-up, or the purchase of a home? Perhaps he/she asked if he/she was included in her will, showing gratitude for a number of years of helpfulness and friendship? Anger erupted when it wasn't the anticipated response? Intelligence took over and the scene and circumstances were made to look like a perverse sexual assault performed by perhaps a serial killer. Killer goes home, washes up, and waits for the news. Nothing happens. A gift is made, creating an excuse to visit AG's residence to deliver said gift. The scene is the same. It gets called in.
 
LE would take DNA from the dogs, so later if a suspect had dog hair on their clothes or in their car it could be connected to Audrey's dogs. Even though they were penned up there could have been a lot of dog hair at the scene and on Audrey.
 
LE would take DNA from the dogs, so later if a suspect had dog hair on their clothes or in their car it could be connected to Audrey's dogs. Even though they were penned up there could have been a lot of dog hair at the scene and on Audrey.
They might also have taken saliva samples from the dogs for basically the same reason, in the event the killer had physical contact with the dogs.
 
Sadly, until there is a break in this case and an eventual trial, we will never learn what it was that the perp took from AG. Hopefully, as police have stated, they are still actively keeping their eye on certain individuals, and pursuing answers in this case. Isn't the taking of a souvenir more of a serial killer type of activity/trademark? It is coming up to 5 years since AG was murdered, wouldn't there have been another, one or more, similar type of cases if that were true in this case? If, like police have thrown out there, the perp performed the sexual component to throw the investigation off kilter, the taking of the souvenir could also have been done with the same goal - that being to make it appear that it was more of a sexually motivated serial type of killing, as opposed to a one-off done in rage. From what I have read, it seems the 'sexual component' is also the 'souvenir component'.

Weird things in this case.
-Police took DNA samples from AG's dogs. (Why?)
-The dogs were in their pens, instead of protecting AG.
-She was found in her garage with her coat on. (She visited with callers outside of her home, including PK)
-Nothing seems to have been stolen from the home, therefore it appears that theft was not the motive, which one might suspect would BE a motive if it was a random killing by an aimless wanderer breaking in to the home of some elderly woman who lived alone in a rural area, hoping to steal some loot.
-Police determined there was no evidence of a sexually motivated crime even though it initially appeared as such, and is now suspected to have been staged by the killer to look like that. (Killer is therefore intelligent?)
-The original lead detective focused on a homeless man who was then freed due to lack of evidence, the case then taken over by another seasoned detective who ended up committing suicide.
-The dear friend who happened upon AG's horrific murder scene while purportedly delivering cake to her as a late Christmas gift, then takes said cake home and eats it with his wife. (Who would feel like eating after finding your friend that way?)
-The same dear friend, who is a 'devout Christian', has difficulty hypothesizing whether AG would go to heaven or hell.
-Police have stated that although there has been cooperation, cooperation is not the same as telling the truth. (Is this to suggest they suspect the POI (or his loved one(s)) is lying? They have said they don't want to have tunnel vision. They have said it is a high bar to gather enough evidence to lay charges. In reading between the lines, it sounds to me like police have their suspect, but don't yet have enough concrete evidence to lay charges.)

I am wondering if someone known to her came to visit sometime between December 27th, when she last had contact with anyone, and December 30th, when her body was discovered. Perhaps a surprise visit, she quickly penned her dogs, threw on her coat and visited in the garage, away from the weather where she perhaps could also have a cigarette, not feeling like allowing said visitor into her home (it was perhaps more disheveled than usual if she had been feeling under the weather for a few days). A conversation took place.. it was Christmas time, the time of giving.. perhaps a topic was broached, perhaps the caller wondered if he/she could negotiate a loan for a business start-up, or the purchase of a home? Perhaps he/she asked if he/she was included in her will, showing gratitude for a number of years of helpfulness and friendship? Anger erupted when it wasn't the anticipated response? Intelligence took over and the scene and circumstances were made to look like a perverse sexual assault performed by perhaps a serial killer. Killer goes home, washes up, and waits for the news. Nothing happens. A gift is made, creating an excuse to visit AG's residence to deliver said gift. The scene is the same. It gets called in.

One point more:
The car had been towed away by police. So the Camaro seemingly played a certain role - under the circumstances, very strange.
I'm sure it will turn out to be important, one day when the case is solved.
 
100% naive, I would think:

A POI who is suffering to be a POI, should use all his intelligence and his insider knowledge to find the real killer by himself and decisive to help LE ... Come on, now!
 
Just as a side note, (not sure if it has been mentioned before), PK is running a patisserie with his wife, looks delicious, may have to pay a visit one of these days. I was hoping to see the 'stollen' which he said he had hoped to put on the menu and name after AG, but I don't see it.

<modsnip>
 
Just as a side note, (not sure if it has been mentioned before), PK is running a patisserie with his wife, looks delicious, may have to pay a visit one of these days. I was hoping to see the 'stollen' which he said he had hoped to put on the menu and name after AG, but I don't see it.<modsnip>

That does look great! I know it has been easy to focus on PK since we know little about others in AG's life. Assuming the police are no longer concerned with him, I hope he is doing okay after a pretty traumatic event.
 
1. Where are the number plates? Is this a pic from delivery the new Camaro to Audrey?? (I didn't know before.) Looks like a not very "pompous" car dealer company, if so.
2. Look at Audrey's comfortable stretch trousers. Someone said (long ago in the thread), her trousers may have been torn/burst at side seams (?) because of increasing body fluid after death. I never believed that and when I look at the photo, even more less. Of course, the trousers from the crime scene hadn't to be the trousers in the pic, but when I think of "comfortable" (as described somewhere), then I would think of comparable wide pants.

1. and 2. don't help the investigation, nevertheless I want to ask.
 
"It is true the police have politely asked me not to share some details... Though I will say that one of the things that has drawn me so powerfully to this forum is how accurately you have deduced some details with the limited information that is publicly available!"

This from Kinsmapji...I wonder what these things are. Things that LE asked him not to talk about but were correctly deduced here on WS

Another quote from Kinsmapji:

"The dogs were confined away from the area where AG was found. Although it wasn't especially unlikely for AG to confine them away from this area during the day, I cant imagine her in this area in the middle of the night. Hopefully that isn't uselessly cryptic?"


Not uselessly but yes cryptic. Does it mean.....AG was killed during the day? Or that some very unusual event or circumstance led her to be 'in this area in the middle of the night." Any thoughts?

This from Missizzy same thread : "I'm in Oregon and was alerted to the thread as I've worked on several cases where there was an occult component. WS is great as it is tightly moderated and thus you won't find us misbehaving (much!!)."

So what was the (possible) occult element here? The graveyard? Something else?

This from KM: "She did indeed visit Harper's Garden Center in Ancaster (Wilson St) whenever she wanted to pick up some new plants or just shoot the breeze or ask for advice... she didn't really merge with the "gardening community" though " .

I have brought up a few times: the memorial site where someone thanked Audrey "for having her (or us) into her home." This is obviously odd as she didnt have people into her home. There is an interesting link between let me just say 'that' and the Harper's Garden Center. Now that individual's locale is a small town near St. Catherine's. And two things linked to this are 1. libraries and librarians and 2. another well known garden centre like Harper's in the small town. How did the person allowed into Audrey's home know Audrey? Did Audrey drive out that way habitually say even for a book she wanted and it seemed like a good destination (or to this other garden centre) in the Camaro..something like that (?).
 
1. Where are the number plates? Is this a pic from delivery the new Camaro to Audrey?? (I didn't know before.) Looks like a not very "pompous" car dealer company, if so.
2. Look at Audrey's comfortable stretch trousers. Someone said (long ago in the thread), her trousers may have been torn/burst at side seams (?) because of increasing body fluid after death. I never believed that and when I look at the photo, even more less. Of course, the trousers from the crime scene hadn't to be the trousers in the pic, but when I think of "comfortable" (as described somewhere), then I would think of comparable wide pants.

1. and 2. don't help the investigation, nevertheless I want to ask.

The number plates are on both the front and rear of the vehicle, you can kind of see the black plate holder at the bottom middle of the front of the Camaro.

This is AG parked at some kind of a plaza, it looks to me like it is a drive-through of some kind, although I don't recognize the sign there where the cars are going through. Maybe a drive-through (like for coffee or something) that is attached to a convenience store.

It looks like AG has a pack of smokes in one hand and a lighter in the other, I could be mistaken.

When I read about AG's pants being slit/split/ripped(??), in my mind, I was thinking the killer had slashed her pants, and that is perhaps what led police to initially suspect some kind of sexual assault. I'm not sure how fast the decomposition of a human takes place, gross thought to think one could be that bloated after such a short time in very cold weather that it would cause stretchy track pants to split? The killer 'took a piece of her'. If AG had her coat on, perhaps that is how/where the killer got his piece? Disgusting thought, sorry.
 
"AG was apparently too ill for company when you spoke with her on the 25th ... but she was loathe to go anywhere when she was ill. However, she apparently went to LV's on the 26th, but was home ill on the 27th when LV brought soup. She was obviously ill enough on the 27th that she cancelled her coffee date for the 29th. In other words, she would have been too ill and concerned about spreading germs on the 25th, but oddly, not on the 26th when she went to LV's or on the 27th when she allowed LV to visit), but on the 27th, felt she would still be too ill to go out and possibly spread germs on the 29th, but hadn't cancelled with you for the 30th." This from Silly Billy I think getting at the possibility Audrey was manipulating situations possibily becasue something was up doing these days....but what? Someone asked who witnessed the will: two older married (thus gay) women Brantford. What I find odd: neighbours do not seem to fear there is a raving madman on the loose. House sold to young couple down the road yet the crime is unsolved. Mr. F. bemused, almost amused in interviews not freaked out. LVS quickly spends time at the house dumping things out lights on nightime. To me something is wrong there. I will try to look at the Mac yearbooks that KM says brought back some memories.....just to see if anything or anyone pops up in an odd way.

This an excellent post from No Stone: "I really do not think that AG was expecting anyone that horrible night. I believe she was ambushed in some way - caught whilst outside for a smoke or lured by someone dressed as a police officer, etc. I do believe that if someone contacted her with a story saying that her friend LV was in trouble, AG might have answered the door to that person and then was ambushed." It is true we have been obsessed with AG's habits here but lots of things could lead her to break them.

This from LillyM. who ran into someone who knew Audrey at the golf club i think: I bumped into my friend following is some points of interest:
-All important documents were found in AGs purse. There was no banking information in her purse, nor could LV find banking records in the house. LV had to go to major branches making enquiries and finally found AG banked at the Teachers Credit Union.
-AG paid for everything (including groceries) with a credit card, she did not debit. Once/month a withdrawl was made for several hundred dollars. She questioned what she would need that money for. (me assuming she paid PK in cash)
-LV purchased a new car and LE followed up asking questions where the monies came from etc. So clearly everyone is suspect.
-They were all shocked to find out about prior marriages over the several years she knew AG only fartface and AG mother in law was ever mentioned.
HER speculation/questions.
-something or someone made AG as paranoid as she was
-was AG in a witness protection program?
-was AG a CIA at some time? (me thinking of Chalk River)
-was AG being bribed, lending a helping hand (cash) to someone (ie: a secret pregnancy, child given up, recently reconnected?)

pregnancy a brief note: on another memorial site I think one linked to Westdale High School I think the odd photoshopped "our her" material was from a Swedish pro abortion rights site.......mentioned this on SV site recently.....
 
OK last one sorry for such a series: is the Gleave listed as living at 311 Wilson Street East Ancaster a relative of AG's ex husband?
 
Regarding the possibility of an SK based on the souvenir/trophy taking, I really have no idea. It is definitely SK behaviour & from what I understand, is often part of an SKs' signature. Tbh after reading Murder City & learning of all the brutal unsolved murders in the area, as unlikely as an SK seems, I wouldn't be surprised. You really have to wonder what the odds are that this type of murder is a one off committed by a killer with no prior "experience" & that they have been satiated by this single murder. Maybe not an SK but imho a sadistic psychopath.

Regarding the pants "splitting"... I could see that happening if AG had been in water or more humid conditions over a longer period but I'm skeptical about them splitting on their own due to decomp. Jmo.

I was also thinking along the lines of a "surprise visitor" or the possibility of a certain someone showing up earlier than scheduled with gift. Also thinking of the possibility that the killer forced AG to lock up the dogs herself. I find it odd that AG was in the garage in her coat but without her cigarettes, a lighter or keys etc. If she were sick with a cold, would she even be smoking? Does anyone know if she was taking any medications, particularly something like Nyquil? It could have made her even more susceptible to being caught off guard.
 
I don't think we know if her cigarettes/lighter were with her or still in the house do we?
 
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