Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

[Tobiano8th]

great sleuthing there......... yes, it makes alot of sense that the trainer might have been the person who showed up a few times the day before discovery. or, thinking out loud, a realtor?....... i think donovan stated that the police stated that person's activities were judged to be benign.. and as i said before, i doubt the murderer shows up 3 times the next day.

was the female trainer in the book training HS too? i can't remember..............probably irrelevent minutaie anyway.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

One other detail in the book - and I don't think there's been any verification in the media - is the suggestion that HS may have stopped at an upscale mall on her way home from Apotex that evening to shop for gifts for her grandkids, and may have given a ride to someone she met at the mall. (Possibly, she could have arranged the meeting earlier?) If so, she could have arrived home at about or just before BS, with that person (who presumably was someone she knew) in the car. (Is more CCTV video, or a warrant to obtain it, part of the currently-sealed evidence?) I thought that was a "wow" moment, but KD doesn't and presumably can't expand upon it.

HS may have been caught on CCTV on her way to, or leaving, the mall, but the mall itself didn’t have cameras until 2018 (!!)

“Her daughter Alex says a credit card statement her husband has seen indicates that Honey stopped at Bayview Village Shopping Centre and went to a children’s store to purchase gifts for Hanukkah. Barry Sherman stayed in his office until 8: 30 P.M., when he too left Apotex, also on his own. The police have not shared any information regarding whether the billionaire couple stopped anywhere on their routes home. Lawyer Brian Greenspan says he has heard the theory that Honey stopped at Bayview Village before coming home but that it is unconfirmed by his investigators. There are also reports circulating among the Sherman friends that Honey stopped at Bayview Village and someone got into the car with her. But there is no evidence of this. I asked questions at Bayview Village but did not find anyone who saw Honey that day. Security cameras were not installed at the upscale mall until 2018, long after the murders.”



— The Billionaire Murders: The Mysterious Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman by Kevin Donovan

The Billionaire Murders: The Mysterious Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman

 

[Lexiintoronto]

great sleuthing there......... yes, it makes alot of sense that the trainer might have been the person who showed up a few times the day before discovery. or, thinking out loud, a realtor?....... i think donovan stated that the police stated that person's activities were judged to be benign.. and as i said before, i doubt the murderer shows up 3 times the next day.

was the female trainer in the book training HS too? i can't remember..............probably irrelevent minutaie anyway.

Yes, the trainer worked with HS after B’s session on the morning of the murders.

She said she sometimes used latex straps around their wrists to increase tension when they lifted weights, but she didn’t on that Wednesday morning.

(The police asked her if she had noticed any markings on their wrists. She said no.)

O/T, but you mentioned the Thursday morning visitor. I watched a program that mentioned a murder that involved staging. A former FBI agent said the person involved in the murder where staging is done will often try to manipulate who finds the victims.

In the murder they were discussing, the possible suspect asked a friend to search the house with him and they found the victim together.

What if the killer is expected the Shermans to be found on Thursday? And somehow that relates to the 90 minute delay in calling 911 on Friday?

 

[Tobiano8th]

Lexi, that makes sense........ one idea from tv/movies that i think is probably correct is that perp often goes back as part of crowd of gawkers nearby.

 

[Tobiano8th]

didn't know bayview village........ just above 401 on bayview. biggish mall. one main street west of Ikea. i've definitely hiked from Ikea west to the subway station. i'm thinking that was the new east-west line, just after it opened. wouldn't be the main yonge line, nor the scarborough line.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Donovan did write a headline "where is honey sherman's will?". i don't remember what it all came down to......... but i mostly agree. if she had one, i would think a lawyer would have a copy. and if she didn't, i don't find it that too unusual.

one thing was mentioned by donovan and/or other is BS dealing with shady and maybe even dangerous characters...... but i haven't see that expanded on anywhere. i don't think FD'A qualifies. and the only obvious situation i remember was the guy with the app/software product who was a recent felon (maybe a felon at key investment times)...

there's a few things (at least) in donovan book, tstar and other places that have been thrown out there and never expanded on.... the "honey/jonathan" statement in the book was pretty much the only "wow" moment of the book, but i don't think it's expanded upon at all

I tend to agree with you, and he comes across well in Donovan’s book, but FD’A is a bit questionable, IMO.

From the CBC:

“Frank D'Angelo was found not guilty Tuesday of sexually assaulting a longtime friend's daughter by a judge who nevertheless said the former brewery owner is "probably" guilty.”

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.830045

On June 9, 2007, D'Angelo was arrested in the alleged sexual assault of a 21-year-old woman.[20] He was found not guilty on April 21, 2009.[21] Justice John Hamilton said he found the evidence of both D'Angelo and his accuser credible. But in handing down his ruling, Hamilton added D'Angelo "may be" or is "probably" guilty of the crime.[22]

Several days after being acquitted, D'Angelo hosted a party at his Forget About It Supper Club. An Ontario Provincial Police surveillance team took photographs showing veteran Ontario Provincial Police sergeant Michael Rutigliano, and two crown attorneys, Richard Bennett and Domenic Basile, present at the same celebration.[23] On May 14, Rutigliano was charged with attempting to influence the outcome of the case.[24] He was accused of conspiring with D'Angelo to obstruct the prosecution of the case.[25] D'Angelo was charged the next day with conspiring to obstruct justice and obstructing justice.[26] He was to appear in court on June 8, 2009, in Brampton,[27] and his case was adjourned until May 31, 2010.[28] On September 2, 2010, the obstruction charges against D'Angelo were stayed.[29]

Frank D'Angelo - Wikipedia

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Lexi, that makes sense........ one idea from tv/movies that i think is probably correct is that perp often goes back as part of crowd of gawkers nearby.

That might explain why the police didn’t tightly cordon off the area around the house that day and into the evening on that Friday.

If they suspected the scene may have been staged, maybe they expected the killer to be there watching. So they let them come close.

Possibly tied to that is Chief Saunders comment after Greenspan’s press conference:

Explaining his caution, he uttered a jaw-dropping statement: “I have to be cognizant that the suspect or suspects are watching right now. I know that for a fact.” How he knew that for “a fact,” short of seeing the suspect or suspects in the audience in front of him, is unclear. TPS did not respond to Maclean’s request for clarification.

Barry and Honey Sherman: Duelling investigations, high drama and still no answers - Macleans.ca

I was hoping he meant they had a suspect under surveillance, but maybe they’ve profiled the killer and anticipated that he’d be watching.

Here at WS KW said his girlfriend was there as a spectator that Friday at the Sherman house, iirc, but I’m not sure that means anything.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, the trainer worked with HS after B’s session on the morning of the murders.

She said she sometimes used latex straps around their wrists to increase tension when they lifted weights, but she didn’t on that Wednesday morning.

(The police asked her if she had noticed any markings on their wrists. She said no.)

O/T, but you mentioned the Thursday morning visitor. I watched a program that mentioned a murder that involved staging. A former FBI agent said the person involved in the murder where staging is done will often try to manipulate who finds the victims.

In the murder they were discussing, the possible suspect asked a friend to search the house with him and they found the victim together. ...

First - very interesting about the latext wrist straps. It was said by the PI team that the initial ME took wrist skin samples to determine if the markings were fresh or not, which results had not yet come back at the time. That would kind of blow the theory out of the water, about it being murder because of the wrist markings?

Second - that makes perfect sense about such a killer manipulating the situation to try to control who discovers the body(ies). Why go to alll the trouble of staging something if it might not even be seen by the people to whose benefit one is staging it for? I recall same thing happening in the Wayne Millard case, when DM asked his friend to go in, but I believe he couldn't/didn't want to, so stood outside with DM, and then DM called his mother to be the one. It seemed he at the very least, didn't want to be the one to make that 911 call, and to have someone else to say they saw the body, etc.

 

[deugirtni]

That might explain why the police didn’t tightly cordon off the area around the house that day and into the evening on that Friday.

If they suspected the scene may have been staged, maybe they expected the killer to be there watching. So they let them come close.

Possibly tied to that is Chief Saunders comment after Greenspan’s press conference:

Explaining his caution, he uttered a jaw-dropping statement: “I have to be cognizant that the suspect or suspects are watching right now. I know that for a fact.” How he knew that for “a fact,” short of seeing the suspect or suspects in the audience in front of him, is unclear. TPS did not respond to Maclean’s request for clarification.

Barry and Honey Sherman: Duelling investigations, high drama and still no answers - Macleans.ca

I was hoping he meant they had a suspect under surveillance, but maybe they’ve profiled the killer and anticipated that he’d be watching.

Here at WS KW said his girlfriend was there as a spectator that Friday at the Sherman house, iirc, but I’m not sure that means anything.

It is very interesting that Saunders said 'know for a fact', as opposed to 'we strongly believe', or even 'we're certain'. To 'know for a fact' is very precise language -- so who did Saunders know for a fact who was watching the press conference that day?

 

[Tobiano8th]

i think the police chief is trying to say is that "i know i have to be careful what i say as the perp might be watching.......... that's obvious and basic precaution" i.e he's just mangling ideas and speech under pressure. faulty parallelism?............. note: if it was press conference with no TV, then yes, then i wonder about his language. if there was TV, no biggie to me.

i don't think he's saying that he knows the killer is watching as he knows who the killer is. ..... anyway, i think it is obvious that person might be following case pretty closely

the wrist straps during exercise in the book were a moderate "wow" moment. i had forgotten about that.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I tend to agree with you, and he comes across well in Donovan’s book, but FD’A is a bit questionable, IMO.

From the CBC:

“Frank D'Angelo was found not guilty Tuesday of sexually assaulting a longtime friend's daughter by a judge who nevertheless said the former brewery owner is "probably" guilty.”

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.830045



Frank D'Angelo - Wikipedia

My first thought was, when I read this time ago: one of BS' daughters?

 

[rickcross]

something i do not understand.

the whole thing was thought to be staged to be M/S...... BUT,

there were so many signs that it wasn't (apparently)....... and BS was seemingly set up in a very dignified (right word?) seating position. surely, someone staging for M/S would think that BS would lose bodily control and probably end up in a very strange, stressed position.

was it never even a reasonable assumption to think it was staged to be M/S? ... staging M/S certainly made sense, but i question whether that even happened here.

People keep getting hung up ant the fact that Barry was found sitting comfortably with his legs crossed and glasses on. I think we are all somewhat influenced by what we see on TV and in the movies. Self asphyxiation can in fact be a very calm, quick and pain free experience if done correctly. To me that particular tidbit means very little, and for the record, I can thrash my head around pretty vigorously and my glasses stay exactly where they are supposed to. Also, take in to account that the full weight of his body was supported by his neck, I'd doubt that his head would have much mobility at that point.

 

[rickcross]

It is very interesting that Saunders said 'know for a fact', as opposed to 'we strongly believe', or even 'we're certain'. To 'know for a fact' is very precise language -- so who did Saunders know for a fact who was watching the press conference that day?

It was a ridiculous thing to say. Saunders is a terrible police chief.

 

[ldlager]

People keep getting hung up ant the fact that Barry was found sitting comfortably with his legs crossed and glasses on. I think we are all somewhat influenced by what we see on TV and in the movies. Self asphyxiation can in fact be a very calm, quick and pain free experience if done correctly. To me that particular tidbit means very little, and for the record, I can thrash my head around pretty vigorously and my glasses stay exactly where they are supposed to. Also, take in to account that the full weight of his body was supported by his neck, I'd doubt that his head would have much mobility at that point.

I think the issue is that, to put it bluntly, was barry's a@@ actually touching the ground??. and was the belt less than completely tight? If so, it is hard to imagine he committed suicide, as the neck would seemingly not carry any weight in that instance.
But we don't really know.

 

[ldlager]

I am so curious who, if anyone, showed up at the house during the 90 minutes before the police were called.

 

[Tobiano8th]

i'm trying to remember if anyone showed up in the 90 minutes.

also, trying to remember whose decision it was to wait 90 minutes......... the realtor(s)? the realty leader was in miami or NYC, as i recall

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I am so curious who, if anyone, showed up at the house during the 90 minutes before the police were called.

My belief is a private security company was called before 911, and they were at the scene first. (Speculation).

I’ve heard of this happening with prominent figures. One example of a similar delay in calling 911 was with Heath Ledger.

In all the chaos surrounding the death of Heath Ledger last week in his lower Manhattan apartment, one reported detail stood out: that when his masseuse found him face down and unconscious on his bed, and then frantically called Ledger's fellow actor Mary-Kate Olsen, the 21-year-old star's immediate response was, "I'm sending my private security." Most people, upon hearing that a friend was unresponsive, with pill bottles nearby, would rush to dial 911. But the masseuse called Olsen two more times before finally calling 911 about 20 minutes later, the second time to tell Olsen that Ledger was cold to the touch and that she feared he was dead. Olsen's response? "I already have people coming over."

Celebrities' Security Services

 

[Tobiano8th]

wow, you guys are quite the sleuths on the FD'A charges and who might have been the victim.

would BS still be friends with him after that? maybe. it's sad but i am still friends with a person that did pretty bad things to me.

this is pure speculation but BS daughter wouldn't need job/money/resume padding so would she go to his hotel room as part of job interview or employment orientation? of course, i guess the answer is "who knows?"

 

[Tobiano8th]

what was the motivation in waiting 90 minutes? did they examine enough to know they were dead? i understand it's "obvious" they were dead. but i would think you have to get very close to make that determination and have very clear signs ....... makes little sense to me to wait even if they were obviously dead.

 

[Tobiano8th]

from the book, i don't remember anyone coming over during the 90 minutes, but i also don't remember much happening. some phone calls for sure.