CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #16

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I have always wondered if one or more of the killers may have arrived and/or left hidden in a vehicle driven close to the house, or maybe right into the driveway or garage by someone who routinely worked in the house, or who came there for some kind of appointment, medical, or real estate related. Just speculating. IMO
I'm sure LE would have used the same process of piecing together the camera trail to get footage of such a vehicle.

And it's easier to identify the make, model , colour of a car, and possibly capture the license plate if it passes a plate reader. Quite a few crimes I've followed have been solved that way.

Whereas a pedestrian is much harder to track or identify.
 
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I'm not sure what someone would walk like, when techniquely fleeing the scene where they'd just murdered two people, but being aware most of these luxury homes have video cameras.

IMO a walk can't be faked for any distance, the person gets distracted by their thoughts and forgets.

IMO the person is more concerned with their face not appearing, by looking toward the street. A normal person would at least glance at the mansion as they pass it.

But by looking at the street there is more liklihood to be captured by cameras on the other side of the street
 
I have always wondered if one or more of the killers may have arrived and/or left hidden in a vehicle driven close to the house, or maybe right into the driveway or garage by someone who routinely worked in the house, or who came there for some kind of appointment, medical, or real estate related. Just speculating. IMO
Sorry, I missed the meaning of your post: you mean there was a conspiracy with some member of their trusted staff or service providers.

Certainly, anything is possible, however if those kinds of things happened in real life as often as they do in fiction, IMO the deaths of a couple of wealthy people would be so routine it would barely be worth reporting. Whereas, the reason this crime has grabbed so much attention, is because it's so rare and shocking, especially in Canada.
 
I'm not sure what someone would walk like, when techniquely fleeing the scene where they'd just murdered two people, but being aware most of these luxury homes have video cameras.

IMO a walk can't be faked for any distance, the person gets distracted by their thoughts and forgets.

IMO the person is more concerned with their face not appearing, by looking toward the street. A normal person would at least glance at the mansion as they pass it.

on the flip side;
I know from private investigation case studies that people can manipulate their gait very easily. Some put a pebble or pin in their shoe so it makes them limp, have one shoe smaller than the other, put shoes on the wrong feet, or place some object under the foot and that makes you use the side of the foot as you walk. Another was a person put a broken broomstick along the side of the body to make them walk more stiffly on one side, it appeared they were dragging their one leg as it would not bend at the hip area. Others put multiple layers of clothing on that made the arms and body swing in ways that were not their normal gait.

If this was the perps planned route, they already knew who had cameras, so this was intentional to walk past them, in a nonchalant manner - why.

I also think the head/body movement can be other things,

- it was -16 with wind chilling winds way colder so keep head and face out of the wind
- they could be in shock, maybe murder was not the initial plan
- simply be pleased with themselves and going over everything that happened that night in their head (own world oblivious to the surroundings)
- head down to see if ice patches on the sidewalks
- is local to the area and walks it all the time so no need to look at houses as you pass
- if a hitman maybe took the wrong road out and is lost, cannot find the getaway car, thus why on many cameras in a certain radius of the Sherman home.
- the gait being off, maybe his foot was cold or wet with snow inside the boot and he was moving it differently
- arthritis in the hip or knee, in the cold could make you walk that way

To me I am impressed of the work that TPS have done in this investigation, this is an example of the depths of work and data they have been sifting through. Video evidence had to be collected within the first day or 2 before video was taped over and lost but many of the homes in the area. The LE most likely had many neighborhood recordings that had to be salvaged or forensically they were able to locate data that had been recorded over but with technology and expertise they can get the older copy, this would take a lot of time. Not only to collect from anyone with a camera within a ??KM radius within the first couple of days?

Some of the reports from neighbors that LE was not interested in the camera recordings are surprising to me. A murder happened across the street from our home (gang related hit - he was in hiding and they found him in a quiet new rural neighborhood shot him in a home and fled) The next day we had a note on our door to please provide our camera details to LE, gave us instructions to call then asap and on how to do give them a copy for a specific time range they need. in this case they asked for video 3 hours before the murders. That same night they took the copy of video (less than 48 hrs after murder) they called to ask about the time clock on our video - so they were reviewing it - and our camera angle had little to nothing to assist them, the other neighbor video came with sound caught a lot more than ours, they did not need ours to back up anything but yet they had to view it.

Understanding that M/S was initial thoughts and area recordings were not thought to be required. I am still not sure if that was an intentional LE ruse, I cannot recall an answer as to why they checked the street drain directly outside the Sherman home. What were they looking for? A murder weapon? if it was M/S and found as they were?
 
I have always wondered if one or more of the killers may have arrived and/or left hidden in a vehicle driven close to the house, or maybe right into the driveway or garage by someone who routinely worked in the house, or who came there for some kind of appointment, medical, or real estate related. Just speculating. IMO
Hmm, interesting, had never thought of that one.
 
But by looking at the street there is more liklihood to be captured by cameras on the other side of the street
Why do you say that? I looked around last night, and the one across the street... I don't know.. please explain?
 
Sorry, I missed the meaning of your post: you mean there was a conspiracy with some member of their trusted staff or service providers.

Certainly, anything is possible, however if those kinds of things happened in real life as often as they do in fiction, IMO the deaths of a couple of wealthy people would be so routine it would barely be worth reporting. Whereas, the reason this crime has grabbed so much attention, is because it's so rare and shocking, especially in Canada.
OTOH, let's not forget that .... help me remember the connection... one of H's service workers was the gf/fiance/wife(???) of one of KW's ... what was it .. best friend? Bro? Interestingly, .. or maybe not if I'm behind in reading.. but I have never heard anyone say whether or not H and possibly B were even aware of that connection.. not even KD has reported on that? It was just a thought.. (on Sphinx's part), but quite a thought indeed, when one thinks about how many 'workers' there were in and around the house.. consider even the 'painters'.. and who knows who else that we're not even aware of.. and how many massage therapists, personal trainers, etc., did H actually have? Etc. imo.
 
Someone made a very important (AFAIC) point in the preceding threads. They mentioned the 'suspect's' turning of his head. I think it may have been @Satchie .. was this turning of the head at that specific spot because this individual already knew exactly where the neighbouring video cams were located? And he turned his head to avoid recognition? It would make sense that this was a 'hired hit', albeit perhaps not necessarily by a 'professional'.. and is it possible this person had tons of info, provided by the hiring party, on all kinds of things, such as neighbouring cams, different routes, floorplans, schedules of victims, habits of victims and possibly also of neighbours, etc etc etc. A plan was born, including walking as the method of transportation. No cellphones being carried, etc. No weapons.. just zip ties.. Etc. imo.
 
My comments on the 'Walker'

Verbal Kint in the Usual Suspects looked nothing like Keyser Soze

· If you keep your right knee stiff you can duplicate this gait. Question is the knee stiff from, injury, surgery, or is the walker creating a visual distraction.

· Dressed and appears older than most of us expected. Which is what he wanted to do. Nobody is afraid or concerned with an old man.

· The walk/gait may be faked as well as everything else visible. Unfortunately you are seeing what he wants you to see. Nothing more, nothing less.

· He walks and stands as a healthy fit individual. Makes sense in this line of work.

· Real pro, looks straight ahead, never where the cameras may be.

· Nothing that would draw attention to him, ordinary Canadian man walking at night. Except the gait, if you are looking for a man with a unique gait, quit possibly you will never find this person.

· Appears to swing right arm more than left. Could this also be a visual distraction?

·If TPS are reading this I would suggest that they digitalize the images, (Motion Bio-mechanics) and determine if the stiffness in the knee is consistent on each step. If it is a real injury, it should be, if it is fake, and a distraction there will measurable difference in the amount right knee is locked.

· Probably if from overseas, used land border to escape Canada with fake passport and ID so would not be hassled by US Customs.
 
Just seems to me that the individual in the video has very heavy boots to be walking in a neighborhood with streets that are already plowed and is wearing very heavy clothes for such a light snowfall. If the weather was worse early on , around the time of the murders, might explain the heavy outerwear. If someone from the neighborhood was just out for an evening walk I doubt they would be wearing such clothing especially if it was for a long healthy walk.

It was very very cold -16 Celcius and wind gusts and chills were very low that night, not surprising they were bundled up IMO.
 
It was very very cold -16 Celcius and wind gusts and chills were very low that night, not surprising they were bundled up IMO.
Thanks for the temp, that is brutal.

No one in that neighbourhood, and few people in the city, would be out walking around. If there was ever a night to call Uber, that was it. So yeah, highly suspicious.
 
I am not from the area so do not know but would this "area" and walk route be to the TTC subway? I know a car is mentioned in LE reporting but that could be fodder.

Still trying to think why they would walk through high-end neighborhoods who most have cameras - avoiding major roads like Bayview Ave maybe? Why park on one of these side streets.
 
I am not from the area so do not know but could this "specified area" and walk route be to the TTC subway entry? I know a car is mentioned in LE reporting but that could be fodder or assumption or intentional misleading.

Still trying to think why they would walk (or park a getaway car ) through high-end neighborhoods who most have cameras - avoiding major roads like Bayview Ave maybe? Why park on one of these side streets.

on another note, my first impression viewing the video was that the individual had a large protruding stomach with a flat backside and was leaning/arching back as "he" walked (to handle the weight in his front - be it his stomach or a backpack under his coat)

It is hard to see if the winter coat is stretched and busting at the seams or if it is a fitted coat over an overweight individual?
 
I am not from the area so do not know but would this "area" and walk route be to the TTC subway? I know a car is mentioned in LE reporting but that could be fodder.

Still trying to think why they would walk through high-end neighborhoods who most have cameras - avoiding major roads like Bayview Ave maybe? Why park on one of these side streets.

Just guessing that there’s more light and better cameras on the major streets. Parking must be an issue as well, although we don’t know if a vehicle was involved.
I am not from the area so do not know but could this "specified area" and walk route be to the TTC subway entry? I know a car is mentioned in LE reporting but that could be fodder or assumption or intentional misleading.

Still trying to think why they would walk (or park a getaway car ) through high-end neighborhoods who most have cameras - avoiding major roads like Bayview Ave maybe? Why park on one of these side streets.

on another note, my first impression viewing the video was that the individual had a large protruding stomach with a flat backside and was leaning/arching back as "he" walked (to handle the weight in his front - be it his stomach or a backpack under his coat)

It is hard to see if the winter coat is stretched and busting at the seams or if it is a fitted coat over an overweight individual?

Leslie Subway station is at Leslie & Sheppard, a 20 minute walk north from Bannatyne Dr & Leslie area.

Google maps photo:
24D9957B-12A7-4D68-9C63-ABDE43F03D40.png

The later it gets in the evening, the wait time between buses gets longer along Leslie. (30 minutes, iirc.). If it’s snowing, there are fewer buses and the wait time is far longer.

ETA: typo
 
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If I am not mistaken, Det. Price would not answer a question if the suspect was seen getting into a vehicle.

To me that implies that they know how the suspect left the area after his 'walk' was completed. I believe at this point the TPS has enough circumstantial evidence regarding the suspect, that if they can identify him, they can get search warrants on him. With search warrants of his home, possessions, electronic devices and so on, they will be well on the way to laying charges. The key is in identifying this individual, you can be assured they have been looking at this fellow for four years, and have expended a lot of resources, and still have no identity.

You can also understand why the suspect took such pains to hide his identity.

I am also assuming that this individual lives in other than the mainstream world, either in organized crime or what some call 'black ops'.
Only a very few people in the world can murder either for money or part of their job description.

On another note, someone partly in jest, implied due to the suspects estimated height, he may be of Japanese ethnicity.
Just as likely he could be of Middle Eastern origin. The Shermans had some linkage both with Iran and Israel, where there exist a number trained black ops experts. We know Saudi Arabia also has such individuals too.
 
My comments on the 'Walker'

Verbal Kint in the Usual Suspects looked nothing like Keyser Soze

· If you keep your right knee stiff you can duplicate this gait. Question is the knee stiff from, injury, surgery, or is the walker creating a visual distraction.

· Dressed and appears older than most of us expected. Which is what he wanted to do. Nobody is afraid or concerned with an old man.

· The walk/gait may be faked as well as everything else visible. Unfortunately you are seeing what he wants you to see. Nothing more, nothing less.

· He walks and stands as a healthy fit individual. Makes sense in this line of work.

· Real pro, looks straight ahead, never where the cameras may be.

· Nothing that would draw attention to him, ordinary Canadian man walking at night. Except the gait, if you are looking for a man with a unique gait, quit possibly you will never find this person.

· Appears to swing right arm more than left. Could this also be a visual distraction?

·If TPS are reading this I would suggest that they digitalize the images, (Motion Bio-mechanics) and determine if the stiffness in the knee is consistent on each step. If it is a real injury, it should be, if it is fake, and a distraction there will measurable difference in the amount right knee is locked.

· Probably if from overseas, used land border to escape Canada with fake passport and ID so would not be hassled by US Customs.

Just an ordinary John/Jeff Doe, who lifts weights?
 
Just guessing that there’s more light and better cameras on the major streets. Parking must be an issue as well, although we don’t know if a vehicle was involved.


Leslie Subway station is at Leslie & Sheppard, a 20 minute walk north from Bannatyne Dr & Leslie area.

Google maps photo:
View attachment 326559

The later it gets in the evening, the wait time between busses gets longer along Leslie. (30 minutes, iirc.). If it’s snowing, there are fewer buses and the wait time is far longer.

Thank you Lexiintoronto!

1st some are discussing the direction of the person walking as to or from Old Colony (OC), I am not sure how you can tell, OC runs East-West and Bannatyne runs North-South (ish)

2nd to be walking on the side of the road with fire hydrants if it were on the way to OC in the early evening (between 6-8pm) hours I think we would see some other activity people in the background, it would be snowing more heavily etc. If this is after the murders it is late evening and heading North on Bannatyne to be recorded at 62 walking in a northerly direction would mean they accessed Bannatyne from the south like Beaverhall Dr. (not using paths to get to Forest Heights /Vyner - they bring you out well north of this camera 62 Bannatyne drive.) This is a longer route - Old Colony east to Harrison, south to Vernham or Heathcote, then north on Fannigton or Banbury, then east on Beaverhall to Bannatyne!

Lexiintoronto, understanding the area does this route make any sense to you?

thanks
BP
 
some are discussing the direction of the person walking as to or from Old Colony (OC), I am not sure how you can tell, OC runs East-West and Bannatyne runs North-South (ish)

RSBM

I went on google streetview, located the home with the hydrant, and then virtually drove in the direction the suspect came from in the video, ie the hydrant side of the driveway. The first cross street I come to is Vyner/Dunlace, in the direction of Old Colony. I haven't tried following the potential routes further. IMO we can't assume this person would have followed the recommended google maps route...
 
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