CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #17

[WINDSOR]

Double post

 

[Sphinx]

Professionals like you describe, would not involve the household staff in the crime. The risk of the staff making a mistake, saying something accidently or 'folding' under interrogation by investigators is just too great.

I see your point, but what if other "professionals" were planted in the household a long time before the murders, and were spying on them ? After the murders, I think most of that staff lost their jobs, and where are they now ? This theory may seem fanciful, but The Shermans were very high profile, wealthy people in The Jewish Community, and the family is now being guarded by former Mossad officers. It is possible that someone, some organization, or even some high ranking political figures in Canada, The USA, or Israel wanted to keep tabs on them for years before the murders. Many intelligence agents lead double lives for long periods of time. IMO

 

[SUSAN ANN]

I see your point, but what if other "professionals" were planted in the household a long time before the murders, and were spying on them ? After the murders, I think most of that staff lost their jobs, and where are they now ? This theory may seem fanciful, but The Shermans were very high profile, wealthy people in The Jewish Community, and the family is now being guarded by former Mossad officers. It is possible that someone, some organization, or even some high ranking political figures in Canada, The USA, or Israel wanted to keep tabs on them for years before the murders. Many intelligence agents lead double lives for long periods of time. IMO

BS made a comment years ago about how he could be murdered someday. Who knows how long this planning went on for. I was listening to a CIA agent they had written a book and was giving a little lecture and he said that after a while they take agents off the street because they can get too paranoid. It would take a certain kind of person I think. Anyway, does anyone care to hazard a guess at what time they think this perp was walking by the house on Banatyne? Could it have been as early as 10 PM? Just curious.

 

[ldlager]

It would likely be easy enough for a strong person to drag someone.. perhaps this is why the wrists were tied, to use as something to hold onto while dragging to the pool? The pool, from what my interpretation is of the floorplan, is not that far from the garage door? (But admittedly, I'm also geographically disabled)

i don’t see why an assassin would drag a 180-200 lb dead man 50 or more feet (my estimate) to the end of the pool. Doing so would risk leaving potential forensic evidence ( fibres,etc) . Instead once bS was restrained I’m sure he could have been made to walk to the far end of the pool room. Moo

 

[ldlager]

Yes, I agree that a killer would want to spend as little time as possible at the scene of the crime. If he did work alone, and the Shermans both arrived at the house at the same time, he might have hidden, and waited until they were asleep, then killed them, but I think if the killer(s) had carefully watched them for a month, as has been reported as a strong possibility by the police, then it is likely they knew what time Barry usually arrived home from work. Honey could have shopped for a longer time, and arrived home much later than she did, but they likely expected her to return home first for her evening meal, which again would likely be according to her routine.

If another killer was at the house, how did he/she come and go ? The police said the NW was the only person on video film that did not seem to belong in the neighbourhood, and whose movements were suspicious around the Sherman house within the time frame the murders took place.
In a more elaborate hypothetical plan, it is possible that member(s) of the household staff were involved, and their comings and goings would not be so suspicious, but I think that one highly trained assassin, with military training in killing, could take two seniors separately by surprise, and murder them very quickly. It is still possible that household staff were involved, and gave the killers information about the Sherman's routines, the house plan, the alarms ( or maybe turned the one camera off in the basement before the murders ) left a back door unlocked etc. I keep going back to Honey's phone on the floor in the upstairs powder room, and Barry's gloves and papers on the floor near the backdoor. I believe this marks their areas of attack. It also seems that no " cleaner " came by to tidy up those mistakes, which would indicate that it was a staged murder/suicide. It is possible that the killer, who was very experienced in quick and efficient killing in a military setting, was not as experienced in staging, and forgot to tidy up the attack areas, and concentrated on staging the bodies by the pool area, then quickly left the house. I think he must have exited by a door not used by either Sherman that night, or he would have seen the phone, or the papers. Perhaps other members of WS, more familiar with the floor plan than myself, could suggest which other door the killer might have used to exit. We know a basement window was left open to remove paint fumes. Was that large enough for someone to use as an entrance/exit point, or could it be removed and easily replaced ? Maybe a large bulky coat could be removed to make this maneuver easier ? IMO

HS called someone that night and that person likely knew she was home, or on her way home.

 

[newclues]

There was some reference to a pressing matter that had to be taken care of after HS left Apotex on Wednesday after some phone call.

 

[deugirtni]

i don’t see why an assassin would drag a 180-200 lb dead man 50 or more feet (my estimate) to the end of the pool. Doing so would risk leaving potential forensic evidence ( fibres,etc) . Instead once bS was restrained I’m sure he could have been made to walk to the far end of the pool room. Moo

Sure he could've, if he wasn't strangled with something as soon as he came into the basement from the garage? I would think it might be easier for an assassin to do that than to somehow get hold of both of his hands and tie them? Said assassin could've cleaned up afterward any floor markings or whatever. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

There was some reference to a pressing matter that had to be taken care of after HS left Apotex on Wednesday after some phone call.

Link?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I recall a comment about Barry leaving Apotex earlier than usual.
“As previously reported, Barry and Honey met with builders of their new home at the Apotex offices at 5 p.m. The meeting was to have been at Old Colony, but for some unknown reason was changed to Apotex. Builder Joe Brennan recalled to police that while Barry normally worked late, he commented that he had a reason to be home earlier than usual.”
Grudges and gossip: A rocky start in the search for Barry and Honey Sherman killers | The Star

 

[deugirtni]

HS called someone that night and that person likely knew she was home, or on her way home.

Would that be intimating that the person HS called that night is in on it? Or somehow reported it to the assassin? Or that H's cellphone conversation was intercepted by the assassin? Or... ?

 

[Tobiano8th]

this is a deep background question, but where did the Shermans stay in Florida? did they own a place?

just wondering how/if they know certain people in jewish community? non-toronto.

 

[ldlager]

Would that be intimating that the person HS called that night is in on it? Or somehow reported it to the assassin? Or that H's cellphone conversation was intercepted by the assassin? Or... ?

if one believes that the killer “knew” their schedule then he/she may have been tipped off by someone that Hs called. It is possible. I am sure TPS has investigated this.
I personally do not put much stock in the belief that the killers had inside info on the Sherman’s schedule that night. I think he/she/they just waited at the house for them. Of course they could have had a lookout near BS office to alert them when BS was leaving his office.

 

[ldlager]

this is a deep background question, but where did the Shermans stay in Florida? did they own a place?

just wondering how/if they know certain people in jewish community? non-toronto.

they owned a condo in Miami.

 

[dotr]

Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
By Anne KingstonOctober 30, 2019 rbbm
''A: Honey was given money for her needs but not her desires. If she wanted to put in a very expensive marble floor in their Florida condo, she could do that. Barry wasn’t interested in spending money—he liked to give it away—and felt his wife should be the same way. In the final year of her life, both Honey and Barry told friends she was going to come into between $100 million and $500 million. Then it became known that some of this might go to her beloved sister, Mary. Honey and Mary were very close; they might be the closest relationship in the Sherman family. Honey was tough on her children—she wanted them to have jobs and pay bills. Barry was closer to them; he’d just give them money. From quite good sources, it was not unusual for the two older children to receive $100s of million and the younger two children to receive in the low millions. It was a very dysfunctional situation with money and the Sherman family.''

Barry and Honey Sherman murders: Inside the lives of the billionaire couple (macleans.ca)
''Like many long-married couples, the Shermans had their own routines. Just before her death, Honey was planning a four-week trip to Miami, where the couple owned a condo, to begin Dec. 18. Her husband was to join her on the 25th, but unlike Honey, he wouldn’t be hitting the links.''

 

[Tobiano8th]

thanks for dotr and ldlager for the Miami condo comments.

a couple of things I haven't seen mentioned much and not sure if this in Donovan's book, his TSTAR pieces or both. but I do remember the info clearly

BS apparently laid out serious $$$$$ to help one of JS's boyfriends to buy a big house in Forest Hill........... I would like to know the actual details of this. assuming it was downpayment on house, was it loan or gift? (banks do not like loans for 3rd parties for a downpayment, I think). and who was going to pay the mortgage on the house? of course the way housing prices have gone, this now ex-BF probably made $5-10MM off this.

I remember being astonished by this event, but it doesn't seem to have any direct bearing on subsequent events... but now, I'll seen suggestions by an insider that BS did this numerous times for JS BF's...... why not just buy your son a house? or lend him the money? seems so much better. even though you give your son the money, he makes the capital appreciation on the house, not some BS acquaintance.

another thing I read recently was something about JS and his first boyfriend. JS was 13, and the BF was 17 or 18... someone from my school went to prison for the exact same (sexual - no way to know if JS relationship was sexual) heterosexual situation... I think any parent would be concerned with that age gap when your child is 13 years old. when they are 15-16 years old, alot of parents don't see it as too nefarious (although some do)

 

[Tobiano8th]

I've seen some vague reference here and there to Mossad....... have the Sherman's hired ex-mossad people for security?.. I believe gerry Schwarz and heather reisman have ex-mossad security, quite extensive

ex-Mossad is interesting........ if I was going to hire someone to do this for alot of money, ex-kgb and ex-mossad are the first things to come to my mind.

 

[Rush4087]

if one believes that the killer “knew” their schedule then he/she may have been tipped off by someone that Hs called. It is possible. I am sure TPS has investigated this.
I personally do not put much stock in the belief that the killers had inside info on the Sherman’s schedule that night. I think he/she/they just waited at the house for them. Of course they could have had a lookout near BS office to alert them when BS was leaving his office.

Idk if it means that the individual who killed the S’s had inside information or not, but wasn’t it posted earlier in these threads (by KW) that his brother’s best friend’s wife worked as a personal trainer for BS (and noted how strong BS was for his age). Certainly the personal trainer would’ve known BS’s schedule.

 

[FromGermany1]

I recall a comment about Barry leaving Apotex earlier than usual.
“As previously reported, Barry and Honey met with builders of their new home at the Apotex offices at 5 p.m. The meeting was to have been at Old Colony, but for some unknown reason was changed to Apotex. Builder Joe Brennan recalled to police that while Barry normally worked late, he commented that he had a reason to be home earlier than usual.”
Grudges and gossip: A rocky start in the search for Barry and Honey Sherman killers | The Star

bbm

That's interesting: to not have the meeting there, where it was planned, and despite that for BS to be earlier at home than usual that evening of all times.
Considering HS' "stuff, she had to deal with" at home, so she missed an important meeting a day/days before, it's even more than only interesting. IMO
It seems, there had been something like a "war zone" at Old Colony. Wonders who the war opponents were.

 

[newclues]

It is interesting how generous BS was with some his family members, friends, etc. who squandered and wasted the millions that they were given and they even came back for some more money. If I ever came into even a fraction of what they got, I wouldn't take it for granted and burn through it like nothing.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

if one believes that the killer “knew” their schedule then he/she may have been tipped off by someone that Hs called. It is possible. I am sure TPS has investigated this.
I personally do not put much stock in the belief that the killers had inside info on the Sherman’s schedule that night. I think he/she/they just waited at the house for them. Of course they could have had a lookout near BS office to alert them when BS was leaving his office.

What if they had been expecting guests that night, or one of their children decided to drop by? A late real estate appointment?

thanks for dotr and ldlager for the Miami condo comments.

a couple of things I haven't seen mentioned much and not sure if this in Donovan's book, his TSTAR pieces or both. but I do remember the info clearly

BS apparently laid out serious $$$$$ to help one of JS's boyfriends to buy a big house in Forest Hill........... I would like to know the actual details of this. assuming it was downpayment on house, was it loan or gift? (banks do not like loans for 3rd parties for a downpayment, I think). and who was going to pay the mortgage on the house? of course the way housing prices have gone, this now ex-BF probably made $5-10MM off this.

I remember being astonished by this event, but it doesn't seem to have any direct bearing on subsequent events... but now, I'll seen suggestions by an insider that BS did this numerous times for JS BF's...... why not just buy your son a house? or lend him the money? seems so much better. even though you give your son the money, he makes the capital appreciation on the house, not some BS acquaintance.

another thing I read recently was something about JS and his first boyfriend. JS was 13, and the BF was 17 or 18... someone from my school went to prison for the exact same (sexual - no way to know if JS relationship was sexual) heterosexual situation... I think any parent would be concerned with that age gap when your child is 13 years old. when they are 15-16 years old, alot of parents don't see it as too nefarious (although some do)

From the recent Star article:

“Andrew Liss told police that he started dating Jonathon when Andrew was 14 (Jonathon would have been 18 at the time) and that Barry invested $50 million in a house “building and selling” business Andrew founded in his early 20s. Barry’s condition, Andrew told police, was that Jonathon sign a document agreeing to work at Apotex and have nothing to do with Andrew’s business…

…As to his relationship with Barry and Honey, Andrew told police he respected Barry but “Honey did not like him because Honey thought Andrew made Jonathon gay.” The business collapsed, Jonathon and Andrew broke up, Andrew recalled and he felt “betrayed because he considered (the Shermans) as family.” ”

Grudges and gossip: A rocky start in the search for Barry and Honey Sherman killers | The Star

From page 214 of my ebook by KD: