Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

[ldlager]

I think reading at least the first two chapters of his book will explain why he gave money. It wasn’t because he cared about others. His overall philosophy is what, I believe, allowed him to avoid his contracted obligation to the Winters children. He does not believe in obligations.

“There is no objective basis to hold that anyone is obligated to do anything that is not required by law. Each person can be expected only to pursue personal happiness in whatever manner he sees best from his own perspective.

Power and wealth bring no obligation but they do bring opportunity.”

He believed that free will is an illusion and life has no meaning and purpose and that fulfilling the same basic instincts as other creatures brings happiness.

He went on to say that power and wealth give more opportunities to follow the instinct to help others and thus derive greater happiness by helping more people.

https://www.scribd.com/document/367757654/A-Legacy-Of-Thoughts-by-Bernard-C-Sherman

I have my opinion of Barry Sherman and how he handled his contracted promise to the Winters children, as I’ve previously stated. Giving away gobs of money doesn’t change my opinion. We are all entitled to our opinions about Barry and the Winters children, right or wrong. Mine happens to be based on what I view as fundamental human decency that IMO should have prevailed from their childhood on and might have led to a better result...certainly not resentment and anger over not receiving an opportunity in their father’s business that was promised. That promise could and should have transferred to Apotex, built with money from Empire. But JMO, MOO and let’s just agree to disagree.

I believe BS in some ways also felt guilty about his money. He lived relatively frugally, didn’t flaunt his wealth, didn’t seem comfortable with it. His mission seemed to only be to make more. . But giving it away was IMO a way for him to not have to become personally involved. AFAIK he never spent a few hours helping in a food bank. Or coaching a kids activity. Or being a Big Brother. Frankly, he rarely even went to his own sons sports games. I am not being critical of him, it’s just that IMO he gave away money at least in part to assuage his guilt regarding his wealth, and he used donations as a way to offset his disinterest in donating his own time and becoming involved at a much more personal level.
I wonder if when he stands before the Pearly Gates how he will be judged. MOO

 

[Montrealaise]

Most of what the Fifth Estate program related was already known, but there was some new information - such as the fact that HS left the Apotex offices at 6 p.m. and BS left almost three hours later. Assuming that HS drove straight home, there was more than enough time to kill her and then lie in wait for BS to arrive.
Also - when KW wanted to start a construction business, BS gave him considerable financial help. Even as the business continued to lose money, BS poured in additional millions, to no avail. Most people starting businesses don't have rich relatives bankrolling them to this extent. KW really should stop blaming BS for everything that went wrong in his life and take a hard look at the mirror.

 

[Tortoise]

They were given millions and they were given homes and they were given money to start businesses of their choice and interest.

rsbm

Giving doesn't have an IOU attached.

The courts would have been powerless to order the return of the money without such.

My belief is that Barry knew they were entitled to more than he was lending them. He didn't seek them out to tell them. They had to fight through the courts to even get that information. The business was their father's brainchild and Barry would not have been where he was without that start and that wasn't acknowledged IMO. So whether what he did was legal or not, from a moral standpoint it was wrong in my view. He said in the deposition he had other cousins he never saw, but that is rather clouding the fact that the father of these particular cousins had enabled his career path.

 

[A Widow]

Sphinx - I agree that saying the killers were professional doesn't exclude making the hit "personal" if that's what the contract entailed. Professional just means to me that someone is very good at what they do, and able to do it undetected which is crucial in such a high profile case. As for K.W. he looked and sounded as if he was experiencing some mental health issues. What made him think that he could win a legal battle with B.S. says something about his mindset from the get go, not exactly sensible.

 

[minorone]

One of the articles posted mentions KW getting into drugs and serving some time as a teen. So he probably could not have worked for the company. Also it was the right to purchase which me and they would have had to come up with the money. JMO

I found this in one of the articles about KW. He was involved with drugs from a young age. I wonder if there is some cognitive impairment from chronic use of the drugs over his lifetime.

“By age 15, Kerry had left home and moved into a rooming house. He continued to attend school, where he was arrested for selling hash and marijuana and sentenced to six months in the Mimico Correctional Centre.“

“He enrolled in San Diego State University for a masters but never finished. Instead, he travelled around the world; while in Peru, he began to experiment with crack cocaine and heroin.”

 

[Tortoise]

Body language : Are we seeing Duper's Delight?

KW: "No alibi. Wednesday night I went to my Cocaine Anonymous meeting..

I came home..as I usually do..watched some Netflix..eat some Doritos (shakes head)..fall asleep..Thursday night same thing..went to work..very easily (sic) for me to have left work anytime cause I'm not on the clock I'm a site supervisor..I can get in my car..I can take a 3 hour break during the day..I could easily have driven over to Colony and done the deed..I admit to that..but I didn't..

I didn't and that's why I'm not nervous.

BBM note change from past tense to present tense.

 

[Researchnut]

There have been some quotes in news articles that said that Barry used his charitable donations as a way to wield power. They are also tax deductible against your taxable income. Do the calculations and see for yourself how much he really gave.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...etimes-used-to-wield-political-influence.html

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/dnrs/svngs/clmng1b2-eng.html

As far as BS giving the W children money ? If you read just the actual court document Winter v. Sherman, 2017 ONSC 5492 (CanLII) you will see that BS did NOT inform the children of thier options to work for the company or inform them of the option to purchase shares.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...TaGVybWFuIGFuZCB3aW50ZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2

He also did not give them money as outlined in other cases,he lent them money as proved here in Mintz & Partners Limited v. Winter, 2013 ONSC 354 (CanLII)

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...TaGVybWFuIGFuZCBXaW50ZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=1

I'd posted something regarding KW's commenting on news articles on December 20th. They have now been removed. I saved a partial copy .

EVERYTHING is IMO

 

[Bravo]

Not sure I can remember a case where a potential POI has shone such a light on themselves :thinking:

 

[BUF]

There are usually two sides to every story. Right now KW is spewing his side (even admittedly embellishing statements after being confronted) and Barry is dead and cannot give his side. IDK, but who is to say that Barry wasn't giving the cousins an opportunity to try to turn their their lives around and excel before offering something more. Unfortunately they filed a lawsuit, tried to say Barry had plotted to kill their father, then Barry fought back and pulled everything away.


https://www.canlii.org/en/#search/text=Bernard Sherman and Winter

Referenced in [36], this information was from KW's conversation with O'Brien from 2008, that was never put in an affidavit, so it was just hearsay. So, was this another embellishment from KW?

 

[Tortoise]

The thing that bothers me is if it was one killer how did he know the Shermans would arrive home separately and be able to handle both if necessary. Someone can predict from past behaviour that Barry would come home late from the office, but not what time Honey would return.

 

[Sphinx]

Sure, that's correct, but again, not my point. I'm not saying any of this would have worked out for the cousins in the way set out in this agreement. I'm saying the way it went down and how the possibility was kept from them, was unsavoury, IMO.

Yes, I agree, and when I learned onThe Fifth Estate tv show last night that their 31 yr. old Mother, as she lay dying of leukemia in a hospital, contacted an agent from Royal Trust because of her concern, after a visit from Barry, that he was trying to steal the company from her very young sons, it made me feel very sad, and distrustful of Barry. A Mother's instincts are very strong, and quite likely right in this situation. Barry knew that morally he had an obligation to be fair with those orphan children. His Uncle Lou took him under his wing after Barry's Father died, let him work in his company, where highly intelligent Barry shined, and taught him about the pharmaceutical business. Because of Lou's kind treatment, Barry succeeded and became a multi - billionaire, but his sense of obligation to Lou's orphan sons was limited, and he made sure the paperwork, when he bought the business was all in his favour. He also had a way around certain clauses, and when he sold the business, while the boys were still children, technically those obligations ended. I think KW was right that Barry planned it that way. Later, when he was facing troubled, drug addicted adult men, he gave them some financial help, with lots of strings -- probably to control them, and protect his family name, which was important for business. When they started to go to court etc. to see the papers held at Royal Trust, Barry started to cut them off, and later even took away their homes, and some of them ended up with huge legal bills and debt when they lost. Sorry, but I really don't think Barry was a really a good moral person. Like many self-made extremely rich people, he was ruthless. KW may not have come across all that well in the tv show, but he did make a better impression than in that awful Daily Mail Article, which was likely written deliberately in a hateful, sensational, tabloid manner in order to boost readership, and sales. KW was victimized by them too, to some extent, in my opinion. Overall, the orphans were given more financial help than the average person, but when they thought of what might have been, they became bitter, and very angry. Human nature is a very complex and difficult thing. None of us know how we would have acted, if we had been raised like they were, and found out what they did about their Father's Company. I hope somehow they will find their way in life. IMO

 

[Tortoise]

There are usually two sides to every story. Right now KW is spewing his side (even admittedly embellishing statements after being confronted) and Barry is dead and cannot give his side. IDK, but who is to say that Barry wasn't giving the cousins an opportunity to try to turn their their lives around and excel before offering something more. Unfortunately they filed a lawsuit, tried to say Barry had plotted to kill their father, then Barry fought back and pulled everything away.


https://www.canlii.org/en/#search/text=Bernard Sherman and Winter

Referenced in [36], this information was from KW's conversation with O'Brien from 2008, that was never put in an affidavit, so it was just hearsay. So, was this another embellishment from KW?

If Barry had said to them, before financing their projects, there was this agreement that I would give you jobs/ share options and this is my offer to you to meet my past obligation, fair dos. Anything else seems shady. IMO.

 

[Crosby87]

Most of what the Fifth Estate program related was already known, but there was some new information - such as the fact that HS left the Apotex offices at 6 p.m. and BS left almost three hours later. Assuming that HS drove straight home, there was more than enough time to kill her and then lie in wait for BS to arrive.
Also - when KW wanted to start a construction business, BS gave him considerable financial help. Even as the business continued to lose money, BS poured in additional millions, to no avail. Most people starting businesses don't have rich relatives bankrolling them to this extent. KW really should stop blaming BS for everything that went wrong in his life and take a hard look at the mirror.

KW said when BS gave him money, he had to sign promissory notes.

 

[nuff]

I have lost what little respect I used to have for CBC's The Fifth Estate. They should have just titled that very sensationalistic piece "The Kerry Winter Story", as I believe it had little or nothing to do with the murders. Very disappointing IMO.

 

[musicaljoke]

As far as BS giving the W children money ? If you read just the actual court document Winter v. Sherman, 2017 ONSC 5492 (CanLII) you will see that BS did NOT inform the children of thier options to work for the company or inform them of the option to purchase shares.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...TaGVybWFuIGFuZCB3aW50ZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2


EVERYTHING is IMO

That's true, but by 1974, it was no longer an option. There was not a continuous transfer of ownership from the original Empire Company to Apotex. So it's not a reasonable assumption that the children can claim 20% ownership of Apotex.

"In 1974, Sherman founded Apotex, which is in the business of manufacturing and selling generic pharmaceuticals. As sworn by Sherman – and as found by Justice Perell and confirmed by the Court of Appeal – Apotex did not own or use any of the assets, goodwill, property or business of the Empire Companies. The definition of “purchased business” in the asset sale agreement of the Empire Companies and the option agreement does not apply to Apotex. At paragraph 157 of his reasons, Justice Perell found that “Apotex cannot be interpreted to be the “Purchased Business” under the Option Agreement……The Plaintiffs’ interpretation is wishful thinking beyond fanciful.”

I suspect that if the Empire Co had been sold to someone other than Rich Uncle, there would never have been another word said about the 20% limited, qualified, contingent and conditional employment agreement and option agreement.

 

[Sphinx]

The killer(s): Someone who had the ability to get in the house, who apparently knew about their security cameras/system; who knew no one else would be present that night; who hated them enough to torture them; who apparently sought to kill both of them. To me, this seems like an inside job -- a family member, a staff member, or a close acquaintance. I don't see this as a big pharma hit. JMO.

I agree that inside info was made available to the killers. No doubt they were careful with their research, and planning beforehand. I would expect that, and likely they did have someone on the inside giving info, through different channels, to the people who were planning all this. It could be that they had a " tap " of some kind on Honey and Barry's personal cell phones. The way it was done -- a quiet killing method, no shots fired, no evidence, no trace of who they were, making sure the murders were done in an empty house, ( no other family, friends, or staff present) in the least used area, with no windows, and no cameras, and no alarm going off, yes it was well planned and executed, but that is the sign of a very high level professional assassination team. IMO

 

[kay74]

He did help them. More than they deserved. And what did they do? They accused him of killing their father! I don’t blame BS for being angry. I would have been too

Come on, BS took it all back.

 

[JayFriend]

Barry had no obligation to give away money. Yet, he did.

Oh, I'm sure he had receipts and wrote it all off to save taxes.

 

[Sphinx]

Kerry is 56.
Born in 1961.
Louis and Beverley Winter died 17 days apart in 1965.

I have to admit, BS's dad's death @ 41 and this couple is disturbing.
I wonder if there will be any additional investigation into their deaths.

IF KW thinks BS had any involvement in the death of his parents, why isn't he insisting to have them exhumed?
(Rather than saying BS wanted him to "whack" HS?)
As a child of parents that died too soon, they would be my priority.
I would have no comment about HS or BS period.
MOO


*http://marketwired.com/press-releas...erman-in-canadas-largest-lawsuits-1519397.htm

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Pamela, you make a very good point. What if Barry really did kill Lou ? That death was the key that opened the door eventually for him to buy Empire. The boys' Mother died of leukemia, but to for Lou to die suddenly at age 41 is rather suspicious unless he had an existing heart condition, or the autopsy proved beyond a doubt that he had a heart defect, or that it was a real heart attack. What now makes me wonder is that Barry knew so much about pharamaceuticals, and experimental ones at that. Me might have even been able to make something in his lab that was untraceable, and would cause a heart attack. This sounds like something out of a murder mystery on tv, I know, but this whole case is so strange, I am just thinking it might have been possible. Maybe as crazy as it sounds, KW could really be on to something true. What a shameful family secret that would be for the Sherman family if it ever came out ! I just hope the medical authorities were really sure about Lou's cause death at the time. Even if it were true, I don't think it was the cause of his and Honey's murder, but if those who ordered the hit knew, it might have made them feel more justified. It also might explain KW's hate and rage. For him it is not all about money. IMO

 

[JDG]

I have lost what little respect I used to have for CBC's The Fifth Estate. They should have just titled that very sensationalistic piece "The Kerry Winter Story", as I believe it had little or nothing to do with the murders. Very disappointing IMO.

Is it possible that it was done so as part of a plan to draw out a POI? Methinks its possible.