Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

[PaulR]

The adults involved with the children should have been advocating on behalf of them. That's how our world works, in theory, and legally.

In this case that would have been Royal Trust, which upon realizing that they couldn't run Empire effectively, sold the company to the highest bidder and put the proceeds in trust for benefit of the children.

I know some think BS had a duty when he bought Empire, and he made a generous offer concerning employment of the Winter kids and the ability to purchase part of the business, considering he and his business partner were borrowing nearly all the money ($250K of the $350K purchase price) and he also had a fiduciary duty to represent the interests of the people who lent him money.

 

[human]

I'm not sure I've got the gist of this question but losing both parents at a young age could be devastating. The child won't understand death and will feel abandoned. Depending on their ages and personalities some might handle it better than the others.

This was in my reference to people who have lots of money such as the Johnson and Johnson family have kids that screw up their lives.

I am mystified why the OP talks about the Johnson and Johnson kids having both parents.

 

[Researchnut]

I'm not sure how legally that matters.

OK, let's think about it this way: someone passes away and leaves two beneficiaries to a house. The house is sold and the proceeds are split in half.

One of the beneficiaries uses the money to start their own successful business. The other does not and turns to drugs. Does the drug-using relative have the right to go after the person who used the money to start a business? Does the drug-using relative have the right to sue the person who bought the house if it rises in price?

I'd say no, they received their cut when the house was sold.

In this case, the children should have received their part of the inheritance when Royal Trust received a check from the buyer of the business; remember revenues of Empire had declined by 20% while Royal Trust was running it. Likely because Royal Trust is a bank and they probably didn't know how to run a pharmaceutical company. That would have been $350K split among the kids, or about $2.5M today. I certainly did not get this kind of head start in life, maybe it is for the best.

That BS bought Empire really doesn't enter into it. Royal Trust may have done the best they could, trust companies are fine for certain things but it was the right call for them to sell the business instead of continue to watch revenues decline.

It's mentioned in the court case as part of the reason that the Winter children were denied thier claim.It clearly states that Barry did NOT use any of the money from the sale of Empire to buy APOTEX. However Barry was not forth comming with finaclial statements from that time and then only gave partial statements.

It's questionable and worth pursueing again in court . IMO

As far as what kind of start we all had in life is not the issue here.No one gave me anything either,I did things myself,however ,it's a moot point.

ALL IMO

 

[Grey-St]

Seeking justice is one thing. Seeking revenge is a bit different. KW seemed to sway to the latter on last night's episode. Wonder why they didn't interview any of the other brothers (I know Dana had passed away) about the circumstances around this deal? I can understand that they didn't want to be part of it but are they supporting KW's ongoing legal efforts?

It's hard to say, but I'd speculate likely not. KW is his own individual, though. All people bounce back, move forward, or not, in different ways. KW has clearly held onto this more than the others. And like I said, revenge stripped down, is essentially seeking justice.

 

[Grey-St]

Sherman's dad died 8 years before Lou Winter, so 1957?
Which would have made BS
25?
I'm just trying to figure out how old BS was when his own dad, died, when his uncle died and when the nephew Dana died.

* not accusing him of killing anyone, I'm just curious as to a timeline there.
MOO


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I thought from last night's episode BS was 9 years old when his father passed. I could have misheard, I was multitasking.

 

[Crosby87]

LW died of an aneuryism. KW has been proven a liar. KW was 4 at the time of his dad's death so I think it is all about the money for him. KW, even though adopted to a wealthy family, is not happy with his life and wants someone to pay. I am not sure why after last night's show, anyone can trust anything KW has to say about BS.

RBBM

I don't think KW is unhappy with his life.

Sure, KW may hate BS, but based on what he said in an interview with The Star, he is a construction supervisor for six custom homes that are currently being built north of the city, at Yonge Street and Highway 7 and he is six years clean of drugs and no longer knows “bad people.”

“I’m six years sober, I’m a wonderful father, I work full time, I haven’t done a drink or drug in six years. I view myself as rehabilitated and recovered. I no longer associate with street people, drug dealers, criminals.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...000-the-week-before-they-were-found-dead.html

 

[kay74]

What does having their own parents have to do with screwing up their lives?

It has to do with EVERYTHING. Like I said, you don't understand. Sorry

 

[JDG]

Which I think speaks to BS's mentality. He must always remain in control. Until he is challenged, his generosity continue. When he is, it's all over. JMO. I don't fault him for being angry about the accusation, I just may not have made them homeless because of it. MOO.

Sorry, have to call you on this one. They (at the time druggies) were hurling unimaginable insults at BS, that he had been complicit in their fathers demise, pure fantasy and yet you think BS mentality is one of control??

No way. They were also about to sue for something that no longer existed but the insults would be the icing on the cake. Are you telling me you wouldn't slam the bank doors on them at that point? IMO
You would be 'sensitive' to their pain/hurts real or imagined? IMO

BS had given them upwards of $15M dollars at that point and he took back the properties. IMO

They had not become successes, seems KW was quite clear about that last night, a lot of it went up their noses. IMO

Maybe he felt that if they didn't like his way, they should work it out on their own. Not unreasonable, given the circumstances, IMO

No matter what our childhood, no matter how our parents are/were, we all grow up and have to decide if we wish to wallow or wish to dust ourselves off and make it. We all make a choice, as adults. Thats my opinion.

 

[human]

It's hard to say, but I'd speculate likely not. KW is his own individual, though. All people bounce back, move forward, or not, in different ways. KW has clearly held onto this more than the others. And like I said, revenge stripped down, is essentially seeking justice.

People have different ideas about justice.

Barry thought justice was removing his largesse when Kerry said that Barry killed his father.

Kerry thinks justice is cutting off Barry’s head and having it roll down the hill.

 

[human]

Adverse Childhood experiences.

https://www.samhsa.gov/capt/practic...havioral-health/adverse-childhood-experiences


Adverse Childhood Experiences
Epidemiology and Prevention
Prevention Approaches
About CAPT
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Adverse Childhood Experiences

Adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) are a significant risk factor for substance use disorders and can impact prevention efforts.
Adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) are stressful or traumatic events, including abuse and neglect. They may also include household dysfunction such as witnessing domestic violence or growing up with family members who have substance use disorders. ACEs are strongly related to the development and prevalence of a wide range of health problems throughout a person’s lifespan, including those associated with substance misuse.
ACEs include:
Physical abuse
Sexual abuse
Emotional abuse
Physical neglect
Emotional neglect
Intimate partner violence
Mother treated violently
Substance misuse within household
Household mental illness
Parental separation or divorce
Incarcerated household member

 

[Grey-St]

I'm not sure how legally that matters.

OK, let's think about it this way: someone passes away and leaves two beneficiaries to a house. The house is sold and the proceeds are split in half.

One of the beneficiaries uses the money to start their own successful business. The other does not and turns to drugs. Does the drug-using relative have the right to go after the person who used the money to start a business? Does the drug-using relative have the right to sue the person who bought the house if it rises in price?

I'd say no, they received their cut when the house was sold.

I'd say certainly no, also. But I don't think that's a great comparison to be honest. JMO.

 

[Ritika]

Given and lent are different words entirely. BS lent money to the Winter children when he felt like it and how do we know that the Winter children may have turned out if they had been allowed to purchace the 20% share.

We cannot know that the Winter children would not have been sucessful if given the chance. Thier interest would most likely be managed.I would not personally have to be beholden to BS in any way.

Parmaceutical companies here in Canada are funded partially by the taxpayers. It you are on welfare, disabled or poor you can get government /taxpayer funded drugs. Very different business model than the small familiy owned business.

Empire companies was failing only after Winter Sr. passed away. The children were aged 4 to 7 at that time.

Everyone needs to read those 2 court cases in entierty . They are very telling IMO.

Lets not forget that the Winter children also have children of thier own. BS's taking of the Winter children's assets would also affect them.Nasty,nasty,nasty IMO

As far as buying a jet or something to that affect with BS's money. You can hold money tax free in a not for profit.No taxes and you are still gaining interest. Would also further BS's agenda. I've done this ,but take a look at his non profit ,who he donated to,and who those non profits in turn donated to. It's very interesting. Quite the web of power and influence. Link to start you on https://chimp.net/charities/apotex-foundation

Everything here is JMO

The CHIMP link does not have any info avail.
However I checked Apotex Foundation’s details of charitable giving on the CRA website here: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/...w-eng.action?b=119212967RR0001&fpe=2016-03-27

I see no issues on who they donated to. All seems pretty normal to me and I work in the philanthropy field.

 

[Grey-St]

http://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...s-chasing-phantom-murderers-in-sherman-deaths

KW is just way too bold for me. Still stating murder-suicide as a fact, stating they will never make an arrest, and stating Susan Gomes is a liar. I'm really sensing clinical narcissism.

 

[Grey-St]

And, in the Toronto Life article, IIRC, the Winter 'orphans' were said to have 'blown through' their inheritance.
That was in reference to whatever they received from the sale of Empire via RT.

So let's assume that whatever inheritance this was, was received at the age of 18. The brain doesn't even stop developing until well into our late 20's. There's great debate on this issue around what really constitutes child from adult. I appreciate that we do have to pick a number, and that number is 18, but even given their trauma history, their developmental age could have been a bit lower than that. I'm not surprised by any sense that they "blew through" their inheritance.

 

[PaulR]

RBBM

I don't think KW is unhappy with his life.

Sure, KW may hate BS, but based onwhat he said in an interview with The Star, he is a construction supervisor for six custom homes that are currently being built north of the city, at Yonge Street and Highway 7 and he is six years clean of drugs and no longer knows “bad people.”

“I’m six years sober, I’m a wonderful father, I work full time, I haven’t done a drink or drug in six years. I view myself as rehabilitated and recovered. I no longer associate with street people, drug dealers, criminals.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...000-the-week-before-they-were-found-dead.html

KW says a lot of things. In the 2008 article in the Toronto Sun he said he was free of drugs for four years "except for weed" (which is a drug.) Now ten years later he's six years sober, apparently. Why do I doubt him? He already failed a polygraph about his claims that BS asked him twice to kill HS.

 

[Peace777]

People have different ideas about justice.

Barry thought justice was removing his largesse when Kerry said that Barry killed his father.

Kerry thinks justice is cutting off Barry’s head and having it roll down the hill.

I was shocked when I heard KW say what he had wanted to do to BS. (maybe that was when he was using drugs?) That was in the past no timeline or when he thought of wanting to "off" BS :rollercoaster::notgood:

 

[PaulR]

So let's assume that whatever inheritance this was, was received at the age of 18. The brain doesn't even stop developing until well into our late 20's. There's great debate on this issue around what really constitutes child from adult. I appreciate that we do have to pick a number, and that number is 18, but even given their trauma history, their developmental age could have been a bit lower than that. I'm not surprised by any sense that they "blew through" their inheritance.

What we don't know is how the inheritance was to be distributed to them. A proper estate plan will not just give the kids a lump sum number at 18, you can do almost anything you want (pay for college and then distribute the rest when they are in their 30s, etc.) There had to have been an estate plan of some sort otherwise Royal Trust would not have entered the picture at all.

 

[Grey-St]

There is info called ACE’s. Adverse Childhood Experiences. I would cite it but I have people coming. It lists the different traumas that children face and the things that can happen because of ACE’s. Death of parents is on that list. I forget what else that may pertain.

The US is recognizing this and there are states that are taking measures to address this.

The kids needed counseling but it did not exist at the time, I am sure.

If we could have a film to rewind on KW’s life, we woild probably see what things affected him to make him the way he is.

At some point, people need to look at themsleves.

Yes I'm well aware of the ACE scale, and its relevance is important here, thanks for pointing that out.

It's also best practice that when addressing ACE's, to employ a trauma informed perspective. That would negate from putting blame on the individual for making "choices" when they are really instead "circumstances", and understanding the greater scope of the issues at play. Where I do think KW's accountability comes into play, is that now as an adult, it is his responsibility to seek out adequate and competent mental health care and work on all of these challenges. I don't know if he's doing that.

 

[Peace777]

KW is just way too bold for me. Still stating murder-suicide as a fact, stating they will never make an arrest, and stating Susan Gomes is a liar. I'm really sensing clinical narcissism.

Another thing I just thought of is this TV appearance and what he said so boldly and with conviction will hurt his business. But maybe he doesn't care?:bang:

 

[Grey-St]

IMO, not much. Many people lose parents to illness, accidents and divorce every year while in their childhood.

Many thousands are raised by step parents, adoptive parents or even in orphanages in some countries and they grow up to be active, exemplary citizens.

Some of course, do not but that is also true of children raised by their own parents.

Obviously, its best to be raised in a loving, caring home by people who love you. Life isn't always like that but most people fare quite well in adulthood, not matter who brings them up and under what circumstances.

I would disagree. "Most people" don't fare quite as well as you think. Mental health is invisible, and you never know what folks are grappling with. It's really not measured entirely by their success or what you see on paper.

And not being raised by your biological parents can have huge attachment issues. I would wager a bet that anyone adopted, fostered, in contact with the child welfare system, or simply raised by other members of their family, have experienced some form of an attachment disorder.