Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[deugirtni]

This is what I don't understand about the double murder theory. Why would they carry it out in that manner? Why tie wrists, then untie them? It simply doesn't make any sense. If you want to kill someone, you shoot them and leave. Every second that you spend at a murder scene increases the risk that you will leave a clue behind. I just don't buy it.

Why tie the wrists? - HS arrived home hours before BS did, according to media reports. During those hours, is it impossible to theorize that perhaps the killer kept HS immobilized with her wrists bound, while waiting for BS to arrive home? And then when BS arrived home, he may have been ambushed when entering the home by whichever entry, hands also tied, and made to witness the murder of his wife, before his own murder. Also, during those hours while the murderer waited for BS to arrive, it is not unthinkable for me to imagine that HS may have become lippy and bold with the intruder, causing her to experience a beating of some kind.

If someone wants to kill someone via a pro hit, or a robbery, I'm sure they'd want to shoot and be out of there as fast as possible, as suggested in post above. On the other hand, if someone had a personal motive/vendetta and wanted to hurt someone in retaliation to get them back for whatever perceived injustices, and cause as much mental anguish as possible in addition to killing the couple, it seems that theory could explain some things in this particular case.

 

[deugirtni]

And extraordinarily diabolical too. Which may be why the family has good reason to request the Court not release personal details associated with the Estate files.

Any murderer walking the streets is a danger to the public, but someone who goes to such great lengths to disguise a murder like that rises to an even higher level of macabre and sadistic imo.

Wasn't it said that steps were taken way back in 2009 by the couple themselves, to keep the estate files confidential?

 

[dotr]

Again wondering what was going on with HS that caused her to miss a meeting?
Did she promise something to someone and chose not to fulfill that promise, did BS refuse to allow/pay for it?
Could HS have been the object of somebody's desire, monetary or otherwise?
speculation, imo.rbbm
re post
Endless court battles, angry relatives and shady players: the truth about Barry Sherman
"On Dec. 12, 2017, the day before the couple was last seen alive, Honey missed a scheduled meeting at the Baycrest Centre Foundation. Were it any other board member, no one would’ve paid heed, says Josh Cooper, the foundation’s president and CEO. But Honey, a beloved queen bee in the upper echelons of Canadian philanthropy, was known for showing up—or else saying she couldn’t. “It was bizarre,” says Cooper. They sent an email to make sure she was okay. “Honey got back to us right away,” he says. “She said she was dealing with some stuff.”

 

[deugirtni]

I agree. Because if it was M-S, why would BS stage his wife's body in that grotesque way? That's equally rare for M-S, as it is for double-murder.

Exactly - if you're going to set something up to look like a double suicide (which would be the goal here IF it was M/S), then what are the chances a double suicide would be planned to display the bodies in such a way?

If we look at the only available options:

i)double suicide - has been ruled out by police, not really sure on why - perhaps because HS's face had been messed up? And as I understand it, they know her body had been moved, since the blood from her face had not been found to have dripped (or whatever) onto her clothing, thus leading police to believe she produced the blood found on the floor while in a position different from how they found her. Perhaps that is why the option of double suicide seems to be off the table?

ii)murder suicide - I think everyone agrees that the option of M/S means that one would have had to have killed the other for that theory. HS being the one to have done this is off the table (I've heard ramblings that she died first, for example, not sure if that has ever been officially verified or if just MSM rumor? And also because of her facial injuries, and because of the blood location, as mentioned in item (i) above.).

So that leaves BS as the only one to consider as the murderer in an M/S theory - and if BS did this, then he had obviously tried to hide the fact that he killed his wife.. so he had to make it LOOK like either a double murder, or a double suicide. Considering how apparently UNobvious it was that it was indeed a double murder, we can rule out that it was staged to appear to be a double murder, so that only leaves the possibility that IF BS did it, he wanted it to look like a double suicide. And it seems he failed wholeheartedly in that effort, for the same reasons listed in (i) above.

According to speculation, LE were jumping right away at M/S (maybe that is what the issue is with TPS - they seem to think things are too simple and don't have the need to look too deeply into anything - everything is just how it appears to be??) and they weren't ready to accept a double murder until a month after the fact, so we can determine from that, that it certainly wasn't set up satisfactorily to look like a double murder.

In my mind, if BS had done this and had then wanted it to appear to be a double suicide, why not do it up in their bedroom, quietly, privately, lovingly, to make it look like a pact had been made between two older people in love who didn't want to live any longer? Why staged in the cold and sterile, unadorned, unhomey environment of the pool room for their last moments together as the loving couple that he would have been trying to portray? On the same level as the garage? It doesn't make sense. He was definitely not a stupid man by any standards, and it seems he had hours to ponder his options, not just a heated rush job.

iii)double murder is the last remaining possibility- whoever the murderer was, seems to have taken his time, shown it was personal, and seemingly attempted to make it appear to be M/S. M/S had to have been how it looked at first glance, since only hours after finding the bodies, police stated publicly there was no suspect at large - that can only mean that they knew where the suspect was, and since there have been no arrests, we know what they were thinking in those first few hours - therefore, I think we *should* all be able to agree that it did not *appear* to be a double murder at first glance.

So whoever did this, did not want or make it to appear to be a double murder. That only leaves open the theory that the killer wanted it to appear as M/S (which BS didn't want, and wouldn't have wanted for obvious reasons). After taking a month to investigate, police finally publicly stated their determination that it was a double murder. We have to rule BS out of the double murder option, since he too is dead. That leaves a suspect outstanding - one that wanted it to appear to be a murder/suicide. jmo.

 

[Indy Anna]

Exactly - if you're going to set something up to look like a double suicide (which would be the goal here IF it was M/S), then what are the chances a double suicide would be planned to display the bodies in such a way?

If we look at the only available options:

i)double suicide - has been ruled out by police, not really sure on why - perhaps because HS's face had been messed up? And as I understand it, they know her body had been moved, since the blood from her face had not been found to have dripped (or whatever) onto her clothing, thus leading police to believe she produced the blood found on the floor while in a position different from how they found her. Perhaps that is why the option of double suicide seems to be off the table?

ii)murder suicide - I think everyone agrees that the option of M/S means that one would have had to have killed the other for that theory. HS being the one to have done this is off the table (I've heard ramblings that she died first, for example, not sure if that has ever been officially verified or if just MSM rumor? And also because of her facial injuries, and because of the blood location, as mentioned in item (i) above.).

So that leaves BS as the only one to consider as the murderer in an M/S theory - and if BS did this, then he had obviously tried to hide the fact that he killed his wife.. so he had to make it LOOK like either a double murder, or a double suicide. Considering how apparently UNobvious it was that it was indeed a double murder, we can rule out that it was staged to appear to be a double murder, so that only leaves the possibility that IF BS did it, he wanted it to look like a double suicide. And it seems he failed wholeheartedly in that effort, for the same reasons listed in (i) above.

According to speculation, LE were jumping right away at M/S (maybe that is what the issue is with TPS - they seem to think things are too simple and don't have the need to look too deeply into anything - everything is just how it appears to be??) and they weren't ready to accept a double murder until a month after the fact, so we can determine from that, that it certainly wasn't set up satisfactorily to look like a double murder.

In my mind, if BS had done this and had then wanted it to appear to be a double suicide, why not do it up in their bedroom, quietly, privately, lovingly, to make it look like a pact had been made between two older people in love who didn't want to live any longer? Why staged in the cold and sterile, unadorned, unhomey environment of the pool room for their last moments together as the loving couple that he would have been trying to portray? On the same level as the garage? It doesn't make sense. He was definitely not a stupid man by any standards, and it seems he had hours to ponder his options, not just a heated rush job.

iii)double murder is the last remaining possibility- whoever the murderer was, seems to have taken his time, shown it was personal, and seemingly attempted to make it appear to be M/S. M/S had to have been how it looked at first glance, since only hours after finding the bodies, police stated publicly there was no suspect at large - that can only mean that they knew where the suspect was, and since there have been no arrests, we know what they were thinking in those first few hours - therefore, I think we *should* all be able to agree that it did not *appear* to be a double murder at first glance.

So whoever did this, did not want or make it to appear to be a double murder. That only leaves open the theory that the killer wanted it to appear as M/S (which BS didn't want, and wouldn't have wanted for obvious reasons). After taking a month to investigate, police finally publicly stated their determination that it was a double murder. We have to rule BS out of the double murder option, since he too is dead. That leaves a suspect outstanding - one that wanted it to appear to be a murder/suicide. jmo.

I really couldn't see BS even being capable of moving HS's body from the murder scene to the pool area. BS doesn't appear to be one of those incredibly fit seniors who lift weights and walk 5 miles/day.

IMO, LE first considered this an m/s because someone known to the family was quick to suggest the option to them, citing supposed incidents of the past.

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

On the phone with Kevin Donovan for over an hour tonight.
He’s writing a book on the Sherman murders. Obviously, we disagree.

You had an entire hour and were unsuccessful in convincing Donovan of the truth as you see it? Reporters have many confidential sources and connections. He’s undoubtedly aware of far more information about this case than has ever been published by the media and it’s obviously not leaning toward a M/S, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[MistyWaters]

I never faulted the police in the handling of Wayne Millards death. Certainly if they had put a lot more effort in to the investigation, they might have found something. However hindsight is 20/20. What people fail to take in to account is that there are literally thousands of sudden death cases in a city as large as Toronto every year. How much manpower would be required to investigate every one of them thoroughly? So they use their best judgment, mixed with a little bit of intuition to make a quick determination. Yes, every once in a while they are going to be wrong, but there simply isn't any other option. Not such an outrageous concept.

Accordingly, there is one option. That’s for people with adequate financial resources to have a second autopsy conducted and hire a PI team to ensure proper due diligence has taken place.

 

[JDG]

A bit O/T but not completely.

When an elderly person in our family died at home alone, the first thing to pop out of the mouth of the police and coroner was 'suicide'. We knew that there was no way that it was suicide, it wasn't anything he would have done, ever.

Turned out that the coroners office sees a lot of elderly suicides, or suicides/murders where one a person is not well, has been alone and bereft.

They do not think of murder right off the bat, they assume that being over 65 and with a medical issue, you're going to 'off yourself'.

The person in our family had a cardiac history and for whatever reason, had kept all the pill bottles in a cupboard. That convinced the coroner that he had OD'd and along with being recently bereft, made perfect sense to them.

The autopsy report, which was sent to myself, stated that he had died of natural causes, due to the cardiac damage sustained in the previous cardiac event.

Our family didn't want the autopsy, for personal reasons but the law stands.

In hindsight, I feel that TPS and the coroners office see so many couples or single people, elderly, who DO commit suicide that its natural for them to conclude pretty quickly, that that is the answer.

Perhaps that's why the 'rogue cop' or whoever, was so fast on that first day at the Shermans', esp since we know about HS facial abrasions.

 

[JDG]

Andreww, in the DM case, had the police even READ the obituary, they would have known something was up. It is the strangest obit I have ever read.
I believe it was put in the paper by DM.

I think it can still be found on Google. Its very odd.

 

[JayFriend]

A bit O/T but not completely.

When an elderly person in our family died at home alone, the first thing to pop out of the mouth of the police and coroner was 'suicide'. We knew that there was no way that it was suicide, it wasn't anything he would have done, ever.

Exactly! That was the conclusion LE came to after Wayne Millard was killed. It was only after Dellen Millard's other exploits came to light that they took another look and reopened the investigation. Declaring the immediately unexplained death of an elderly person as suicide is a cop out. Pun intended.

 

[deugirtni]

I really couldn't see BS even being capable of moving HS's body from the murder scene to the pool area. BS doesn't appear to be one of those incredibly fit seniors who lift weights and walk 5 miles/day.

IMO, LE first considered this an m/s because someone known to the family was quick to suggest the option to them, citing supposed incidents of the past.

MOO

I think it is only 'rumor' that HS was moved to the pool area from somewhere else in the home. Regardless, I was talking more about HS being somewhere bleeding, *before* she was 'hung', however it may have been in the same area of the home, but just not in the hanging position, otherwise the force of gravity would have necessitated that the blood would have fallen from her face onto her clothes first, instead of reaching the floor first. So if it was supposed to look like a double suicide (which is what the goal would have been IF Mr. Sherman committed M/S), it does seem like that's viable. And it also, for whatever reasons, didn't appear to be a double murder to police at first glance. That leaves M/S, which seems unlikely considering the particular display of the bodies (see my long post above). OR it leaves someone who *wanted* it to appear to be M/S.

I also don't see how police could have been thinking M/S because the idea was introduced to them by someone known to the family, because it was the same day the bodies were found that police were saying 'no suspect at large', and we know from family reports that LE was not sharing info with them... so I don't believe there is any way that they would have been sharing info with any long lost relatives who may have been wanting to cite supposed incidents of the past. It seems like police thought that because HS was bloodied, and there was no sign of forced entry. Easy Peazy, must be M/S. Solved! (yes, sarcasm) All jmo.

"Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said."

Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News

 

[JDG]

I wonder if the lack of blood on her clothing was because it had had time to clot after 'whatever happened' and/or she may well have been dead at that time, so the blood ceased flowing. just speculation of course. MOO, IMO, JMO

 

[deugirtni]

Accordingly, there is one option. That’s for people with adequate financial resources to have a second autopsy conducted and hire a PI team to ensure proper due diligence has taken place.

And also to do their own investigative work and interviewing with suspects (Laura Babcock case), and also to do their own searching for the missing person/body (Tess Richey).

 

[deugirtni]

A bit O/T but not completely.

When an elderly person in our family died at home alone, the first thing to pop out of the mouth of the police and coroner was 'suicide'. We knew that there was no way that it was suicide, it wasn't anything he would have done, ever.

Turned out that the coroners office sees a lot of elderly suicides, or suicides/murders where one a person is not well, has been alone and bereft.

They do not think of murder right off the bat, they assume that being over 65 and with a medical issue, you're going to 'off yourself'.

The person in our family had a cardiac history and for whatever reason, had kept all the pill bottles in a cupboard. That convinced the coroner that he had OD'd and along with being recently bereft, made perfect sense to them.

The autopsy report, which was sent to myself, stated that he had died of natural causes, due to the cardiac damage sustained in the previous cardiac event.

Our family didn't want the autopsy, for personal reasons but the law stands.

In hindsight, I feel that TPS and the coroners office see so many couples or single people, elderly, who DO commit suicide that its natural for them to conclude pretty quickly, that that is the answer.

Perhaps that's why the 'rogue cop' or whoever, was so fast on that first day at the Shermans', esp since we know about HS facial abrasions.

Just to clarify... it definitely was NOT a rogue cop. It was definitely the police narrative at that time just after the bodies were discovered. It was the officer speaking to media on TV news. It was the Detective Price who was quoted saying the same thing (no suspect at large). And it was apparently at least one 'police source' who spoke to various media without being named.

It seems that so often police can get tunnel-vision and just seem to want to dwell on one possibility and take note of the pieces of evidence which point to that conclusion, rather than gathering all of the evidence and following up with due dilience and open minds, to see where it all leads before coming to conclusions. We have all read MSM articles of crimes where people who had something they felt was important enough to report about a case, have never even been interviewed once. I'm sure that police really DO gain a feel for things since they see so much, but at the same time, their gut isn't always right, and it seems like evidence can disappear forever if it's not followed up on right away, rather than waiting until perhaps months down the road when they perhaps discover that their theory was wrong and end up having to start from scratch.

I get that there is huge pressure to pacify the public and prevent fear and mass hysteria, but in this particular case, those statements of no suspect being at large was very premature, considering all the facts they did not have at that time. (no autopsy yet, no speaking to whoever last saw them, whoever was last in the home, the people that found the bodies, no looking at any neighborhood CCTV (there just had not yet been time to do this stuff by the time those statements were made!)

And all of that is basically the same thing the OP is saying - they have an idea in their minds, and that's what they follow and go with. OP I would just like to ask what your family suspected the COD was in your family's case?

 

[JDG]

Hi,
We thought he had had another major cardiac event or something related to his cardiac history. He had surprised the medical people by surviving the first cardiac event.

The coroner at the scene was focussed on the fact that he had kept all of the pill bottles, for whatever reason. If he had not taken the pills as directed, he would have died shortly after his initial cardiac event.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Evidently, suicide is very high in the elderly, living alone and bereft persons. Esp men.

 

[Indy Anna]

I think it is only 'rumor' that HS was moved to the pool area from somewhere else in the home. Regardless, I was talking more about HS being somewhere bleeding, *before* she was 'hung', however it may have been in the same area of the home, but just not in the hanging position, otherwise the force of gravity would have necessitated that the blood would have fallen from her face onto her clothes first, instead of reaching the floor first. So if it was supposed to look like a double suicide (which is what the goal would have been IF Mr. Sherman committed M/S), it does seem like that's viable. And it also, for whatever reasons, didn't appear to be a double murder to police at first glance. That leaves M/S, which seems unlikely considering the particular display of the bodies (see my long post above). OR it leaves someone who *wanted* it to appear to be M/S.

I also don't see how police could have been thinking M/S because the idea was introduced to them by someone known to the family, because it was the same day the bodies were found that police were saying 'no suspect at large', and we know from family reports that LE was not sharing info with them... so I don't believe there is any way that they would have been sharing info with any long lost relatives who may have been wanting to cite supposed incidents of the past. It seems like police thought that because HS was bloodied, and there was no sign of forced entry. Easy Peazy, must be M/S. Solved! (yes, sarcasm) All jmo.

"Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said."

Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News

You may be right. I remember reading when it first came out in MSM that LE had reason to believe HS had been killed in another area of the house before being dragged (IIRC, that was the term they used, but might not be correct) to the pool area. I immediately questioned that scenario because of BS's age and lack of an athletic build.

Soon afterwards, the article came out about BS being accused a few years ago of considering putting a hit out on his beloved wife. I guess I pictured someone showing up at the house during the investigation and engaging LE in conversation, bringing up his theory. Maybe I watched too many episodes of Columbo in my time.

 

[Indy Anna]

Hi,
We thought he had had another major cardiac event or something related to his cardiac history. He had surprised the medical people by surviving the first cardiac event.

The coroner at the scene was focussed on the fact that he had kept all of the pill bottles, for whatever reason. If he had not taken the pills as directed, he would have died shortly after his initial cardiac event.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Evidently, suicide is very high in the elderly, living alone and bereft persons. Esp men.

My grandfather committed suicide at the age of 77. He lived long enough to tell my grandmother and a neighbor, upon returning from a shopping trip, he had shot himself. The mystery behind his death, though, was why he would want to kill himself. As a result of being a longtime smoker, he had lost one lung and half of the other to emphysema. My gma noted it was a very hot summer day when he shot himself, with high humidity, so he may have had trouble breathing.

Gpa had been monitored closely for any signs of cancer in his remaining pulmonary lobe and the doctor had found a spot on his lung shortly before his suicide. It turned out not to be cancerous, but gpa told the ER doctor he was dying of cancer. When the doctor took x-rays to confirm this, there was no cancer so he was puzzled by gpa's affirmation and did all he could (unsuccessfully) to save gpa's life.

My point is that the elderly may not always be thinking clearly. They may be driven by poor health or fear of spending their last years battling serious illness, or by loneliness. Although BS didn't appear to be the athletic type, he seemed to be relatively healthy for his age, active in his businesses and his community, and had a lovely wife who was also active. He and HS were preparing to leave on a trip to visit their children and grandchildren, IIRC. There's nothing in his life that would point to either murder or suicide. MOO

 

[andreww]

Accordingly, there is one option. That’s for people with adequate financial resources to have a second autopsy conducted and hire a PI team to ensure proper due diligence has taken place.

What doesn't make sense is that the findings of an ex-coroner trump those of the actual coroner.

 

[andreww]

Although BS didn't appear to be the athletic type, he seemed to be relatively healthy for his age, active in his businesses and his community, and had a lovely wife who was also active. He and HS were preparing to leave on a trip to visit their children and grandchildren, IIRC. There's nothing in his life that would point to either murder or suicide. MOO

This is the standard reply that I hear about this case, that Barry wouldn't commit suicide because he had so much to live for. I do not deny or disagree with that fact. However, this was not a suicide brought on by years of depression or mental illness. He did not wake up that day with any intention of killing himself. What happened was that when Barry came home that day, there was an argument, likely precipitated by either the upcoming move, the new house project, or Honey's leaving for Florida the next day. Tempers flared and Honey ended up dead. At that point Barry needed to make a decision that would affect the rest of his life. Very best case scenario would see him arrested and spending the next five years trying to beat the charge, likely while he sat in a jail cell. So he took the easy way out. He also manipulated the crime scene, purposely making it very ambiguous, not looking like a murder, not looking like a double suicide, not looking like a murder suicide. I think he was aware that the cause of their deaths would always remain a unanswered question, but for him that was fine, so long as the truth never came out.

But back to my point, if things went down like this, the upcoming wedding, birth of a grandchild, or overall happiness would have no bearing on his decision to commit suicide, so your argument is invalid and flawed.

 

[andreww]

You had an entire hour and were unsuccessful in convincing Donovan of the truth as you see it? Reporters have many confidential sources and connections. He’s undoubtedly aware of far more information about this case than has ever been published by the media and it’s obviously not leaning toward a M/S, wouldn’t you agree?

That may be Donovan's opinion. Doesn't make it right. I'm not really familiar with him, so I can't speak specifically about him, but I have seen crime reporters that are simply not that passionate about what they investigate. They write a story simply to get a paycheque. Christie Blatchford is someone who I'd be more inclined to believe for instance. Anne Brockhurst is another that is obviously passionate, and she has written an article that openly questions LE's decision to call this a double murder. In fact, in that article she states that some of her police contacts were not happy with the change in direction of this case. So it all comes down to who you believe or trust.