Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

[copkid]

If you have not watched these they contain some good information and footage.

 

[LylienTuc]

Many of us are wondering if CH could be responsible for other crimes.

According to Makin's book (page 91-92) Christine was found wearing clothing that the family did not recognize....specifically a grey turtleneck.

The blue sweater her grandmother had knitted and that she was apparently wearing at time of disappearance was not at the body site?

Also a watch she was reportedly wearing has never been located?

Buttons found at the scence did not match Christine's blouse?

She was found wearing 2 pair of socks?

Where did this turtle neck come from?
Where did the extra pair of socks come from?
Where did the blue sweater and the watch go?
Trophies perhaps?

Could any of these items be related to another crime?

More and more I think about it more I believe that Hoover left her somewhere for a day before bringing her to the woods. He did seem like a guy who moved a lot and was very comfortable with getting houses here or there. Many people live in one place for 30-40 years and he is for sure not this person.
Change of clothing and also the fact that her panties had sperm, which means she was raped and then put her underwear put back on and walked with for certain time. I highly doubt that her underpants would have semen on if he brought her to the woods immediately and raped and killed her. The crime scene is for sure not one when she was allowed time to put her underwear in between.

Just a thought.

 

[DSCrime]

Many of us are wondering if CH could be responsible for other crimes.

According to Makin's book (page 91-92) Christine was found wearing clothing that the family did not recognize....specifically a grey turtleneck.

The blue sweater her grandmother had knitted and that she was apparently wearing at time of disappearance was not at the body site?

Also a watch she was reportedly wearing has never been located?

Buttons found at the scence did not match Christine's blouse?

She was found wearing 2 pair of socks?

Where did this turtle neck come from?
Where did the extra pair of socks come from?
Where did the blue sweater and the watch go?
Trophies perhaps?

Could any of these items be related to another crime?

@copkid I also wonder if CH was a loner type of offender or if he ever had help. I'm not suggesting he had an accomplice in the Christine Jessop case, don't know enough about it.

Just saying that in some cases a pedophile might be a part of a bigger network that engages in crimes against children.

Police have now spoken to more than 50 people who knew him. If he ever had contact w/ other offenders & they are responsible for other crimes, I hope that it's not too late for justice.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/hoover-family-devastated-by-murder-accusation-1.5771340

"Toronto police told CBC News they have now spoken with more than 50 people who knew Calvin Hoover.

"We're learning more about the people that he spent time with, where he spent time, and we're looking at any unsolved cases that may be out there that Calvin could have been involved in," said Det. Steve Smith, the lead investigator on the Jessop case.

He also said the Hoover family has been very helpful in their investigation. "They're providing us with as much information as they can."

 

[copkid]

REDRUM page 92-93

Details from Mr. Cull...he owned the property where Christine's body was found.

-Mr. & Mrs. Cull were at the property in early October
-Mr. Cull did recall a foul odour in late October, he never found a source for it, he took it to be caused by nearby goats
-Mrs. Cull died suddenly Nov 1, 1984
-Mr. Cull returned to the property in early December and discovered his trailer had been broken into
-Many items were missing
-He reported the break in to DRPS but it seems little was done
-Mr. Cull had little to offer after CJ was found other than his recollection of a white car driving up the tractor path earlier that fall...the car hurriedly turned around after the male and female occupants spotted Mr & Mrs Cull in the garden
-Mr. Cull abandoned the the little trailer never to return

How is it that Mr. Cull at no time in October or December noticed Christine's tiny body laying just mere meters from his trailer?

 

[MsBetsy]

Delete broken quote

 

[MsBetsy]

Many of us are wondering if CH could be responsible for other crimes.

According to Makin's book (page 91-92) Christine was found wearing clothing that the family did not recognize....specifically a grey turtleneck.

The blue sweater her grandmother had knitted and that she was apparently wearing at time of disappearance was not at the body site?

Also a watch she was reportedly wearing has never been located?

Buttons found at the scence did not match Christine's blouse?

She was found wearing 2 pair of socks?

Where did this turtle neck come from?
Where did the extra pair of socks come from?
Where did the blue sweater and the watch go?
Trophies perhaps?

Could any of these items be related to another crime?

All the clothing found at the scene were identified as belonging to Christine. She was not wearing the sweater knitted by her grandmother, that was a mistaken assumption made early on. She was known to wear two pairs of socks and many layers of clothing because she was self conscious about being so small, according to the family. Her brother also said she often changed several times a day, which might explain why they weren't sure what she was wearing at first.

I've never heard anything about a watch, but Makin's book has been criticized by the family as not being entirely factual.

IMO

 

[copkid]

@copkid I also wonder if CH was a loner type of offender or if he ever had help. I'm not suggesting he had an accomplice in the Christine Jessop case, don't know enough about it.

Just saying that in some cases a pedophile might be a part of a bigger network that engages in crimes against children.

Police have now spoken to more than 50 people who knew him. If he ever had contact w/ other offenders & they are responsible for other crimes, I hope that it's not too late for justice.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/hoover-family-devastated-by-murder-accusation-1.5771340

"Toronto police told CBC News they have now spoken with more than 50 people who knew Calvin Hoover.

"We're learning more about the people that he spent time with, where he spent time, and we're looking at any unsolved cases that may be out there that Calvin could have been involved in," said Det. Steve Smith, the lead investigator on the Jessop case.

He also said the Hoover family has been very helpful in their investigation. "They're providing us with as much information as they can."

I asked earlier if CH ever lived in Richmond Hill at the same time as the Jessop's. I ask this because there are a couple of other names (pseudonyms) that were brought to light later in this case.

From REDRUM the Innocent

Bill & Al Mack (pseudonyms)

-When the Jessops lived in Richmond Hill Ken Jessop was friends with Al, they were close in age
-Bill was 3+ years older
-Bill had "magazines"
-All 3 boys en-gaged in sexual experimentation
-Christine became involved when she was about 4 years old
- Bill convinced them this behaviour was normal
-Al, Ken and Christine would en-gage in sex acts together in the basement
-When KJ revealed this information LE paid Al & Bill a visit.
-Al admitted to multiple sex acts
-Bill admitted to sex acts with KJ but denied any exploitation of Christine

Is it possible that CH knew or was associated to these two deviants?
Did CH ever work/volunteer with youth? Hockey, baseball?
Is it possible CH was somehow aware of the earlier exploitation of little Christine by "Al & Bill Mack"?
Did this spark his sick fantasies?

Was there another reason he chose Christine other than, he may have been aware she would be alone for a mere 20 minutes that day?

 

[MsBetsy]

REDRUM page 92-93

Details from Mr. Cull...he owned the property where Christine's body was found.

-Mr. & Mrs. Cull were at the property in early October
-Mr. Cull did recall a foul odour in late October, he never found a source for it, he took it to be caused by nearby goats
-Mrs. Cull died suddenly Nov 1, 1984
-Mr. Cull returned to the property in early December and discovered his trailer had been broken into
-Many items were missing
-He reported the break in to DRPS but it seems little was done
-Mr. Cull had little to offer after CJ was found other than his recollection of a white car driving up the tractor path earlier that fall...the car hurriedly turned around after the male and female occupants spotted Mr & Mrs Cull in the garden
-Mr. Cull abandoned the the little trailer never to return

How is it that Mr. Cull at no time in October or December noticed Christine's tiny body laying just mere meters from his trailer?

Apparently the body was well hidden in high weeds and there was a pile of woodchips blocking the view from the path. Patterson only found it because his dog went into the area to investigate, and he and his daughter followed.

Imo

 

[copkid]

All the clothing found at the scene were identified as belonging to Christine. She was not wearing the sweater knitted by her grandmother, that was a mistaken assumption made early on. She was known to wear two pairs of socks and many layers of clothing because she was self conscious about being so small, according to the family. Her brother also said she often changed several times a day, which might explain why they weren't sure what she was wearing at first.

I've never heard anything about a watch, but Makin's book has been criticized by the family as not being entirely factual.

IMO

Canada: Kaufman Commission - Guy Paul Morin - Evidence of "screams"

Scroll down to the section on the "blue sweater" from the Kaufman report

It is possible that the dog handler had possession of this sweater.
Is seems, however, that LE tried quite diligently to locate it, yet it has never been found.
JMO

 

[Tadpole12]

More contacticging info - prison or dentist? I can imagine Christine being heard on a telephone call crying in the background because she wanted to go to the dentist too.

BBM

On October 3, 1984, Jessop was dropped off at her home from her school bus as her mother was out visiting her father who was in prison.[2]
Guy Paul Morin - Wikipedia

From the Public Inquiry -
“On the afternoon of October 3, 1984, the school bus returned Christine to her home at about 3:50 p.m. No one was there. Her mother, Janet, had taken Christine’s older brother, Ken, to the dentist in Newmarket.”
https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov...rings/exhibits/OPC/pdf/60_Kaufman_Summary.pdf

Both. And Jannet paid a hydro bill, somewhere as well. Iirc.
Wrt Time line

 

[Forest_Wood]

I wonder if they still have the cigarette butt(s) found at the site of Christine's body...or at least a good picture. Would be interesting to see if CH smoked and if the brand of cigarettes could be identified as his. I'm not a smoker myself, but all the smokers I know have a specific brand.

Not to mention they should have been able to get DNA from the cigarette found there.

 

[Tadpole12]

From what I can tell, there never was any factual evidence Christine was abducted from her home. That theory was based on the wrongful accusations that GPM, a neighbour, was the killer.

As all we can do is speculate, so it’s possible after Christine was dropped off by the bus and as nobody was home she left to go to a local playground or wherever kids hung out at that time. On her way she was abducted by CH and it just happened he knew her family. (“Hey want a ride?”) That would make it a crime of opportunity as well, as opposed to Christine being a specifically targeted victim.....my opinion only.

The reason I was thinking about this is because CBC recently corrected the statement about the home abduction to be “unknown”.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/christine-jessop-news-conference-1.5763673
Corrections

• A previous version of this story stated that Christine Jessop was abducted from her home. In fact, that is not known.
  Oct 16, 2020 9:51 AM ET

With the new information wrt Christine having a tantrum and it being overheard or recounted to HH during JJ's phone call; I just wonder.

CJ was a smart little girl.
So she had a tantrum and was explicitly told she was too young,
and would not be included in the visit.
So why is the assumption to be made that she would willingly go for a prison visit at 5pmish.
She knew her Mother and KJ would return home after their visit and errands were completed.

Just makes me wonder.

Corrections - Visiting Policy | Ministry of the Solicitor General

Re Visitors by Minors, 2020
Visiting hours, ? 4 hours per day, 7 days a week
"Visits by Minors
The decision to grant visits to children under the age of 16 years is at the superintendent's discretion. In making the decision, each application is considered individually and based on its own merits."

What were the requirements in 1984?

 

[Tadpole12]

And we wonder why HH marriage to CH ended.. along with a drunk driving conviction that rendered him useless (for one year without his drivers licence) for helping out with errands, possibly traveling to work, presumably a huge increase in car insurance premiums, etc. But in seriousness, where were the 3 bankruptcies reported?

Home - Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy Canada
Login - Welcome - Bankruptcy and Insolvency Records Search - Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy - Bankruptcy - Industry Canada

ETA "To login, you must already have an account with ISED"

 

[Deleted member 275109]

So many questions here can be answered by the ex-wife. It would be nice if she could do a tell all. Not to answer nosy people, but to provide insight into how such a monster ticks. It might help or give insight into how other killers behave and how they got away with their crimes. It might even help solve other crimes that CH might be responsible for. She might have answers that she doesn’t even know she has. I hope that whatever she chooses to do, that she at least answers the questions that Christine’s family might have. Even though they finally know who did it, they must have zillion questions about how, why, etc. things that only she can answer.

 

[MistyWaters]

So many questions here can be answered by the ex-wife. It would be nice if she could do a tell all. Not to answer nosy people, but to provide insight into how such a monster ticks. It might help or give insight into how other killers behave and how they got away with their crimes. It might even help solve other crimes that CH might be responsible for. She might have answers that she doesn’t even know she has. I hope that whatever she chooses to do, that she at least answers the questions that Christine’s family might have. Even though they finally know who did it, they must have zillion questions about how, why, etc. things that only she can answer.

Good to know this is happening as the investigation into CH continues -

Calvin Hoover: Tips flood in from public about Christine Jessop’s cold-case killer
“Identifying Hoover was only the beginning for Smith and the team, who he said are now working around the clock to learn more about the killer’s life.

“The objective is to learn more about Calvin, to see where he was during those three decades, see what he was up to, who he was with, what he was doing, and eventually to make sure that there is no other victims or no other crimes that Calvin was involved in,” Smith said......

.......Smith has spoken to Hoover’s former wife, Heather, and their sons.

“They’ve been as cooperative as they possibly could be. They’re offering us anything that we need from them. They’re shocked, but they’re helping us in any way they can,” he said.....”

 

[MistyWaters]

With the new information wrt Christine having a tantrum and it being overheard or recounted to HH during JJ's phone call; I just wonder.

CJ was a smart little girl.
So she had a tantrum and was explicitly told she was too young,
and would not be included in the visit.
So why is the assumption to be made that she would willingly go for a prison visit at 5pmish.
She knew her Mother and KJ would return home after their visit and errands were completed.

Just makes me wonder.

Corrections - Visiting Policy | Ministry of the Solicitor General

Re Visitors by Minors, 2020
Visiting hours, ? 4 hours per day, 7 days a week
What were the requirements in 1984?

I’m think that’s only speculation, how CH came into contact with Christine. I’ve not seen it confirmed as fact anywhere. Is there a link?

 

[Forest_Wood]

I asked earlier if CH ever lived in Richmond Hill at the same time as the Jessop's. I ask this because there are a couple of other names (pseudonyms) that were brought to light later in this case.

From REDRUM the Innocent

Bill & Al Mack (pseudonyms)

-When the Jessops lived in Richmond Hill Ken Jessop was friends with Al, they were close in age
-Bill was 3+ years older
-Bill had "magazines"
-All 3 boys en-gaged in sexual experimentation
-Christine became involved when she was about 4 years old
- Bill convinced them this behaviour was normal
-Al, Ken and Christine would en-gage in sex acts together in the basement
-When KJ revealed this information LE paid Al & Bill a visit.
-Al admitted to multiple sex acts
-Bill admitted to sex acts with KJ but denied any exploitation of Christine

Is it possible that CH knew or was associated to these two deviants?
Did CH ever work/volunteer with youth? Hockey, baseball?
Is it possible CH was somehow aware of the earlier exploitation of little Christine by "Al & Bill Mack"?
Did this spark his sick fantasies?

Was there another reason he chose Christine other than, he may have been aware she would be alone for a mere 20 minutes that day?

It really bothers me reading some of the language that has been used in describing Christine in relation to these 3 boys who molested her and one even mentioned intercourse. The above describes it as “Christine became involved …” Another described it that they “had sex”. There is no way a young child from the age of 4 to 9 is an active participant in sex. She was taught that it was normal behaviour and therefore she was sexualized from a very early age. When a child is taught about sex from an early age, they would automatically act in ways that they think is normal because they don’t know any different. For example, making certain gestures or using certain words that a 4-9 year old would not know ordinarily. I believe she must have displayed actions that any adult could see as being of a sexual nature and further preyed upon as a result. I believe even her parents must have noticed something out of the ordinary in that regard. I believe that CH observed some of this behaviour in Christine during his visits there and took advantage of that. KJ reported they were babysat by the Hoovers. I think he knew he could abuse her because of his observations of some sexualized behaviours she likely demonstrated. I also believe he may have abused her prior to the final time where he murdered her afterwards. I think CH knew he could manipulate her because she had already been manipulated, used and abused by others. It’s really heartbreaking. IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

It really bothers me reading some of the language that has been used in describing Christine in relation to these 3 boys who molested her and one even mentioned intercourse. The above describes it as “Christine became involved …” Another described it that they “had sex”. There is no way a young child from the age of 4 to 9 is an active participant in sex. She was taught that it was normal behaviour and therefore she was sexualized from a very early age. When a child is taught about sex from an early age, they would automatically act in ways that they think is normal because they don’t know any different. For example, making certain gestures or using certain words that a 4-9 year old would not know ordinarily. I believe she must have displayed actions that any adult could see as being of a sexual nature and further preyed upon as a result. I believe even her parents must have noticed something out of the ordinary in that regard. I believe that CH observed some of this behaviour in Christine during his visits there and took advantage of that. KJ reported they were babysat by the Hoovers. I think he knew he could abuse her because of his observations of some sexualized behaviours she likely demonstrated. I also believe he may have abused her prior to the final time where he murdered her afterwards. I think CH knew he could manipulate her because she had already been manipulated, used and abused by others. It’s really heartbreaking. IMO.

You’re right, it is very heartbreaking. Unfortunately during decades of the 80s and earlier, the way some things were hushed up or went unnoticed was quite different than the heightened awareness of sexual molestation that we have today.

It stands as a good example of “then” and “now”, a reason it’s difficult to look at this case wearing only year 2020-glasses. Things were different back then in many ways...a couple of examples - a parent of a 9 year old in 2020 might be perceived as negligent in allowing that child to go to the store or park all alone, almost all children/parents in 2020 are able to check on one another through cellphones.

 

[Wondergirl]

REDRUM page 92-93

Details from Mr. Cull...he owned the property where Christine's body was found.

-Mr. & Mrs. Cull were at the property in early October
-Mr. Cull did recall a foul odour in late October, he never found a source for it, he took it to be caused by nearby goats
-Mrs. Cull died suddenly Nov 1, 1984
-Mr. Cull returned to the property in early December and discovered his trailer had been broken into
-Many items were missing
-He reported the break in to DRPS but it seems little was done
-Mr. Cull had little to offer after CJ was found other than his recollection of a white car driving up the tractor path earlier that fall...the car hurriedly turned around after the male and female occupants spotted Mr & Mrs Cull in the garden
-Mr. Cull abandoned the the little trailer never to return

How is it that Mr. Cull at no time in October or December noticed Christine's tiny body laying just mere meters from his trailer?

How is it that Mrs.Cull died suddenly so close to the discovery of CJ? I didn't know that. That's crazy.

 

[Tadpole12]

@25:23
"Christine's body was found near this lonely road. There were only 3 houses
nearby. Lydia Robertson told police she heard screams late on the night
Christine went missing. (video, brown brick bungalo)
"I heard cries for help. Help, help and no, don't." It must have been half an hour later a child cried out real loud. You know, like it was hurt." The scream continued for half an hour. First she thought it was a domestic fight but her neighbours also said the heard it. If they were right it might have cleared Morin."

ETA wrt witness Gabriel Polgar sp?, around October 3rd, he saw suspicious vehicle pulled to side of road, driven by "large man"
CH wouldn't be considered a large man.

Canada: Kaufman Commission - Guy Paul Morin - Evidence of "screams"

CANADA - Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1
Wrt GP and "blue car", post by dedpanman,
Sighting a few days after Christine's abduction on the Fourth Concession.