Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Cormier, 19, St John, NB, 29 Sept 2013 - #2

[Truth Prevails]

If anyone would be interested in a good look at the cliffs in the area, this offers the best view I have come across.

It constantly rotates unless you stop it, but you can find the button to do that at the bottom left of your screen. You can also zoom in to get a really good look.

Notice the seaweed on the rocks, which indicates the tide level.

http://www.360tourist.net/view-tour/4397/en/360wa519f5f072ea34

It actually rotates clockwise to the area where Genevieve was walking, so you have to wait for it to circle around. You should see both the BoAz and the Reversing Falls restaurant which will help to orient yourself.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Yes, please post the timeline, etc... would be helpful again...

With the new info that Gen was found with her backpack still on her (CMIIW) - my thoughts are it is possible it was an accident, but also thinking of the days when I used to commute by subway in NYC and there was as scare (at least one) of some nut on the loose who would push an unsuspecting person who was standing close to the edge of a platform onto the tracks in front of a train....

http://www.businessinsider.com/nyc-cant-stop-deaths-on-its-subway-tracks-2013-1

They never seem to label the nuts cases that do this as potential serial killers...
Could there be someone on the loose who's pushing women into the river?

BBM - This is something I hadn't thought of. He would have to be very patient while waiting for his victim, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, at least in some of the areas along the path. You could maybe climb back up, depending on how badly hurt you were--and the tide--at the time.

Very interesting, though.

It bothers me, too, now knowing her shoulder bag was still with her. That is a most amazing feat, all by itself; considering the distance she may have traveled in that water. Even once she was out of the rapids and cleared the Saint John River--the Bay of Fundy, fed by the Atlantic Ocean, is a strong, ferocious body of water to deal with, even at it's tip.

I don't know what could have held it on.

 

[otto]

If anyone would be interested in a good look at the cliffs in the area, this offers the best view I have come across.

It constantly rotates unless you stop it, but you can find the button to do that at the bottom left of your screen. You can also zoom in to get a really good look.

Notice the seaweed on the rocks, which indicates the tide level.

http://www.360tourist.net/view-tour/4397/en/360wa519f5f072ea34

It actually rotates counter clockwise to the area where Genevieve was walking, so you have to wait for it to circle around. You should see both the BoAz and the Reversing Falls restaurant which will help to orient yourself.

Almost got dizzy with the rotation. Anyway, it looks like a high bridge over a wide river. Is the water deep or shallow?

 

[Truth Prevails]

Almost got dizzy with the rotation. Anyway, it looks like a high bridge over a wide river. Is the water deep or shallow?

LOL. I hope you found the button to stop it from rotating.

The following link explains it better than I can, but I will add that we are speaking of a very dangerous body of water.

The bridge is "below" the pulp mill and Fallsview Park. (There is also a crossing for the train.)

Here, in Saint John, the bay tides rise 28½ feet. When the tide is low, the St. John River, 450 miles long, empties into the bay. Between Fallsview Park and the Pulp Mill, the full flow of the river thunders through a narrow gorge. An underwater ledge 36 feet below the surface causes the water in the river to tumble downward into a 175-200 foot deep pool. Below the mill and under the bridge, the water boils in a series of rapids and whirlpools.
http://jetboatrides.com/?page_id=431

 

[Inquisitive_Kat]

Inquisitive Kat.....would it be possible for you to make a list of things we do know and things that can be ruled out? Many heads are better than one and maybe a seemingly small detail ,could be seen differently through someone else's eyes( although I am sure your family has looked at everything over and over) Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

I can try this, for sure. I will post tomorrow or over the weekend, after I have had some time to put together all the information we have confirmed so far.
Thank you all for all of your help and dedication.

 

[jillybean51]

I can try this, for sure. I will post tomorrow or over the weekend, after I have had some time to put together all the information we have confirmed so far.
Thank you all for all of your help and dedication.

Take your time Kat.Anything you can provide us with at this time is so much appreciated! We are so happy to have you with us! Hugs

 

[OldSteve]

Thinking about this case, and as a sort of bump, --- after looking at the timeline and maps..... It seems (and please CMIIW) that Gen was on her way away from the water when she was last seen at 4:30 - would she have had to walk closer to the water from that point on?

She mentioned being tired at 3:30 to a friend... was that in person, or via a text?...
That friend would be LPTSH which always raises the red associated with that...
Any info about that???

Any news of medical finding would be of help... could some kind of drugs or alcohol be involved in any way? Could she have been slipped something without knowing?

Not accusing anyone, not meaning to besmirch her character... just trying to think outside the box... what's important here is how did she get into that river?!

 

[Truth Prevails]

Thinking about this case, and as a sort of bump, --- after looking at the timeline and maps..... It seems (and please CMIIW) that Gen was on her way away from the water when she was last seen at 4:30 - would she have had to walk closer to the water from that point on?

She mentioned being tired at 3:30 to a friend... was that in person, or via a text?...
That friend would be LPTSH which always raises the red associated with that...
Any info about that???

Any news of medical finding would be of help... could some kind of drugs or alcohol be involved in any way? Could she have been slipped something without knowing?

Not accusing anyone, not meaning to besmirch her character... just trying to think outside the box... what's important here is how did she get into that river?!

Just jumping off your comment, and maybe adding a few thoughts.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rj8p1s9gsdg5&lvl=19.3&dir=173.89&sty=o&form=LMLTSN

Now, I have made this map and I based it on the best information I could find; but if I have anything wrong--please, do hesitate to let me know. I would be most happy to correct it.

The link will take you to a much bigger version, but you have to pull down and slide to the right to follow the path.

The red arrows mark the path that Genevieve was know to use regularly, and I have tried to position them to show the direction she would have been walking that Sunday.

I wouldn't say she was heading away from the water. She was really not quite to the start of the path which followed the water.

The first thing I note is that the path is not that close to the water. She would have had to take a detour from her normal route.

It's reported that she was still on King Street around 3:30 pm when she told her friend she was heading home. (I'm not sure if she told him/her she was tired.) This would have been in person.

I don't believe it has been confirmed, but IF this person was the person with her in the surveillance pictures from earlier that morning--then law enforcement did say they cleared him before even releasing the photos.

We also know that she texted a girlfriend saying she was going home because she had laundry to do, and wanted to get some rest. I'm not sure of a time for this text message, but I believe it was on that Sunday.

She suggested to her friend that maybe they could meet later.

I don't see one single red flag in anything above.

A lot of people like to go home and get some rest after they have stayed up late with friends the night before. Besides she had some laundry to do, and she probably had something in the laundry that she wanted to wear for her job interview on Monday.

The river is not a place where you would stop to rest on a rock. It's dangerous and local people are aware of it. You don't hang around there alone to relaxingly contemplate the meaning of life.

I don't see her getting in that river accidentally. imo

Apparently, they are still working on the toxicology reports. It's possible that she was slipped something, I suppose.

It sounds like her friend, (maybe from Duke St.), just walked her part way home. I doubt if she voluntarily stopped walking after that. She made good time--if the timing reports are accurate.

I believe her friend is cleared, and I don't think there would have been time for anyone else to do it.

I think someone was right there--just beyond where she was last seen. Either in that lower parking lot, or waiting in the woods.

And I have a big question about how her shoulder bag would have stayed across her shoulders. If you wear a bathing suit that is a little loose at the top, the straps will slip right off your shoulders if you are not careful.

How could a shoulder bag stay there, I just can't understand it. I say something was tied somehow--that's the only thing I can think of that would hold it on.

 

[jillybean51]

Truth I believe the shoulder bag was one that crossed over your chest and under your arm on the other side.( as per Kat)

One thing that I find confusing is the conflicting story of who was in the video with Genn.It was stated that it was her friend Nick ,but her father had stated on Facebook that this person was unknown to her and was just a random encounter with a stranger.Maybe Kat,you could clarify this.....

 

[OldSteve]

Just jumping off your comment, and maybe adding a few thoughts.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rj8p1s9gsdg5&lvl=19.3&dir=173.89&sty=o&form=LMLTSN

Now, I have made this map and I based it on the best information I could find; but if I have anything wrong--please, do hesitate to let me know. I would be most happy to correct it.

The link will take you to a much bigger version, but you have to pull down and slide to the right to follow the path.

The red arrows mark the path that Genevieve was know to use regularly, and I have tried to position them to show the direction she would have been walking that Sunday.

I wouldn't say she was heading away from the water. She was really not quite to the start of the path which followed the water.

The first thing I note is that the path is not that close to the water. She would have had to take a detour from her normal route.

It's reported that she was still on King Street around 3:30 pm when she told her friend she was heading home. (I'm not sure if she told him/her she was tired.) This would have been in person.

I don't believe it has been confirmed, but IF this person was the person with her in the surveillance pictures from earlier that morning--then law enforcement did say they cleared him before even releasing the photos.

We also know that she texted a girlfriend saying she was going home because she had laundry to do, and wanted to get some rest. I'm not sure of a time for this text message, but I believe it was on that Sunday.

She suggested to her friend that maybe they could meet later.

I don't see one single red flag in anything above.

A lot of people like to go home and get some rest after they have stayed up late with friends the night before. Besides she had some laundry to do, and she probably had something in the laundry that she wanted to wear for her job interview on Monday.

The river is not a place where you would stop to rest on a rock. It's dangerous and local people are aware of it. You don't hang around there alone to relaxingly contemplate the meaning of life.

I don't see her getting in that river accidentally. imo

Apparently, they are still working on the toxicology reports. It's possible that she was slipped something, I suppose.

It sounds like her friend, (maybe from Duke St.), just walked her part way home. I doubt if she voluntarily stopped walking after that. She made good time--if the timing reports are accurate.

I believe her friend is cleared, and I don't think there would have been time for anyone else to do it.

I think someone was right there--just beyond where she was last seen. Either in that lower parking lot, or waiting in the woods.

And I have a big question about how her shoulder bag would have stayed across her shoulders. If you wear a bathing suit that is a little loose at the top, the straps will slip right off your shoulders if you are not careful.

How could a shoulder bag stay there, I just can't understand it. I say something was tied somehow--that's the only thing I can think of that would hold it on.

^^Really Excellent! - and not just saying that. The map you provided was exactly what I was trying to visualize from previous maps, and it was not clear like yours!

All your points - I agree 100% - no red flags there... but like you, I cannot imagine how her shoulder bag would have stayed with her... it would become heavy with water, straps would stretch, etc...

For this to be accidental, IMO she had to have become very disoriented, confused, delirious - as if suffering some kind of I don't know what...

On the other hand, if she was attacked, then should be signs on her...

Could she have been taken, and held someplace for some perverted reason and then later it was made to look like what we have? - I wonder how carefully her clothing was looked at to see if she could have been re-dressed... it's the shoulder bag has me thinking along that line...
but it's too bizarre..

So, guess I'm just confused about this case.. Local med examiners have to be super sharp to catch something here... If anyone is familiar the the British series Vera - we need a medical examiner like her Billy...

 

[Truth Prevails]

Truth I believe the shoulder bag was one that crossed over your chest and under your arm on the other side.( as per Kat)

One thing that I find confusing is the conflicting story of who was in the video with Genn.It was stated that it was her friend Nick ,but her father had stated on Facebook that this person was unknown to her and was just a random encounter with a stranger.Maybe Kat,you could clarify this.....

BBM - Yup, I think I understand the type of shoulder bag everyone means.

But if a person was floating in a body of water with some of the highest and roughest tides in the world for approximately a month, what would hold that shoulder bag on?

I ask this in all seriousness. It wouldn't be your neck, because the ocean waves can take a necklace right off your neck--I have seen it happen.

It wouldn't be your arms, because they would be out in a floating position, wouldn't they?

Unless, of course, your hands were tied.

 

[Sandpiper]

BBM - Yup, I think I understand the type of shoulder bag everyone means.

But if a person was floating in a body of water with some of the highest and roughest tides in the world for approximately a month, what would hold that shoulder bag on?

I ask this in all seriousness. It wouldn't be your neck, because the ocean waves can take a necklace right off your neck--I have seen it happen.

It wouldn't be your arms, because they would be out in a floating position, wouldn't they?

Unless, of course, your hands were tied.

I agree on the purse also.The day before Genna was found we had a terrific storm,high winds,rain and massive surf which should have pulled anything apart. Could the bag have been across her body under her jacket? I say this because that Henderson guy did call it suicide until he backpeddled, if her hands were tied wouldn't this spell foul play right away?

 

[OldSteve]

A month is a very long time to be in that kind of rough water. When LE said it appeared she had been in the water a long time, did they really mean a month?

Normally, a person who is drowning will violently thrash their arms - so again her bag remaining on her does not make sense..

Also she would have resurfaced (depending how cold the water) but a week or two?

Allot of info:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/water.pdf

 

[Truth Prevails]

^^Really Excellent! - and not just saying that. The map you provided was exactly what I was trying to visualize from previous maps, and it was not clear like yours!

All your points - I agree 100% - no red flags there... but like you, I cannot imagine how her shoulder bag would have stayed with her... it would become heavy with water, straps would stretch, etc...

For this to be accidental, IMO she had to have become very disoriented, confused, delirious - as if suffering some kind of I don't know what...

Thank you, Mr. Steve!

Excuse me for splitting up your comment, but I didn't want to miss any of your excellent points.

BBM - Yes, I will acknowledge the possibility. But from everything I've heard, she was in good health; plus she was only just barely 19. (I believe her birthday is in July.)

That kind of rules out anything natural, for me; although, I guess we can't close that door completely.

And, also, if someone drugged her somehow--as we discussed earlier; it's possible the drugs could have kicked in at the right moment. I feel that's a real long shot, though.

On the other hand, if she was attacked, then should be signs on her...

Yes, absolutely, there should be. They did say that they believed she was in the water for sometime. I think that could cause a lot of evidence to be destroyed.

Could she have been taken, and held someplace for some perverted reason and then later it was made to look like what we have?

I have thought of this. IDK

And then there is the elephant in the room--the other two equally mysterious disappearances. More sudden illnesses?

- I wonder how carefully her clothing was looked at to see if she could have been re-dressed... it's the shoulder bag has me thinking along that line...
but it's too bizarre..

I know, but even the presence of the shoulder bag is bizarre.

I wonder if her jacket was on her; as well as all her other clothing? Hearing about the shoulder bag gives one that impression, but I haven't really heard that confirmed.

So, guess I'm just confused about this case.. Local med examiners have to be super sharp to catch something here... If anyone is familiar the the British series Vera - we need a medical examiner like her Billy...

I'm not familar with that series, but I'd settle for a good pathologist.

I'm not sure of what they could find after a prolonged period in salty ocean water--I'm sure there is sea life in there, too; but I hope they gave it their best.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I agree on the purse also.The day before Genna was found we had a terrific storm,high winds,rain and massive surf which should have pulled anything apart. Could the bag have been across her body under her jacket? I say this because that Henderson guy did call it suicide until he backpeddled, if her hands were tied wouldn't this spell foul play right away?

BBM - Oh, that's a good point. That's possible.

Yes, if her hands were tied, it certainly should have spelled foul play.

The only thought I could come up with was that maybe whatever was used for binding came off just as she was coming to shore.

I know that's a little far out there. I'm really perplexed.

They could be holding back a few things--so as not to upset the intergity of their case, of course.

They're big on that around these parts.

 

[Crimson clover]

It is comforting to see Gen's thread remain so active here (especially with local perspective and insight). I have pages upon pages to brief up on...non-vocal, posting with little merit...but...I think of Gen every day. Still.

She was beautiful. She was young. She was ALL that.
I keep checking here...siding with the 'perp' theories...across the board. The gut feeling lingers, you know. Justice for Genevieve.

I'd like to get passed her last Saturday night...Sunday am til...
It still remains a mystery, no? The 4 W's and all...Umph, umph.

Hope and prayers her family is coping with strength...and the power of her sweet memory.

 

[Truth Prevails]

A month is a very long time to be in that kind of rough water. When LE said it appeared she had been in the water a long time, did they really mean a month?

Normally, a person who is drowning will violently thrash their arms - so again her bag remaining on her does not make sense..

Also she would have resurfaced (depending how cold the water) but a week or two?

Allot of info:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/water.pdf

BBM - Nope, they didn't confirm what they would have considered a long time.

And I'm not sure what their exact words were on that--if I come across the media link I'll post it. They definitely gave the impression that she was in the water for some period of time.

She was missing for a total of 35 days.

See Page 11 of your link for some interesting information on how long it could take a body to surface.

One of the most important factors affecting this is the temperature of the water, (as you said.) In very deep, cold water--which is definitely what we are looking at--the body sometimes never surfaces.

The fact that she made it to shore is one small miracle that we can be grateful for.

The article gives an estimated 3 to 5 days for the months of September and October; and possibly 10 to 14 days for November, and December--and this is in the Thames River.

So, maybe we could say two weeks to surface.

Another interesting thing that could be positive, is that it says that deep, cold water can delay decomposition. (See Page 1 of link.)

One thing I have never heard anything about was if she could have been on the beach shore for a few days. According to the article, once you are out of the water, the decomposition becomes rapid.

So that could be quite important.

Thanks so much for that link! It is informative.

 

[OldSteve]

Thanks Truth Prevails for response to my posts, and feel free to split them however you like - your replies are always logical.
Thanks to everyone else here as well - lots of good thoughts and theories while we keep this thread alive.

This is a strange case. More so because of the other women. We've raised some good questions that a family member might ask LE about, though family being here is a sensitive issue. Trying to picture how I would feel if it were my son, say....
He a grown man and although we are as close as can be, he leads a very private life and if LE came to me and said he committed suicide, I think I might accept it since I know so little about his private life, but since I have no reason to believe he is having any problems (just the opposite, he'd doing very well, is very content) I'd be asking all kinds of questions of LE... I'd want to see things first hand as well, as painful as that would be...

 

[OldSteve]

Re-reading my above ^^ I would delete where the part about my son and what I would do as it's too preachy...

 

[Truth Prevails]

It is comforting to see Gen's thread remain so active here (especially with local perspective and insight). I have pages upon pages to brief up on...non-vocal, posting with little merit...but...I think of Gen every day. Still.

She was beautiful. She was young. She was ALL that.
I keep checking here...siding with the 'perp' theories...across the board. The gut feeling lingers, you know. Justice for Genevieve.

I'd like to get passed her last Saturday night...Sunday am til...
It still remains a mystery, no? The 4 W's and all...Umph, umph.

Hope and prayers her family is coping with strength...and the power of her sweet memory.

Gen is always on my mind, too.

Those 4 W's got me to thinking; but I like the five of them, with "how" added as the sixth.

1.) Who
2.) What
3.) Where
4.) When
5.) Why

6.) How.

How is the biggie for me. How did he/she/they get her and leave no sign of a struggle?

I spend a lot of time searching around, thinking about that.

Great to see you here, btw.