Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Cormier, 19, St John, NB, 29 Sept 2013 - #2

[Truth Prevails]

Thanks Truth Prevails for response to my posts, and feel free to split them however you like - your replies are always logical.
Thanks to everyone else here as well - lots of good thoughts and theories while we keep this thread alive.

This is a strange case. More so because of the other women. We've raised some good questions that a family member might ask LE about, though family being here is a sensitive issue. Trying to picture how I would feel if it were my son, say....
He a grown man and although we are as close as can be, he leads a very private life and if LE came to me and said he committed suicide, I think I might accept it since I know so little about his private life, but since I have no reason to believe he is having any problems (just the opposite, he'd doing very well, is very content) I'd be asking all kinds of questions of LE... I'd want to see things first hand as well, as painful as that would be...

I agree. I think when you are able to examine the circumstances, you may find enough to make suicide acceptable in some cases.

Often times when people are preparing themselves for suicide, they will drop a hint to one friend in this group; and one friend in another group; and maybe even to a third friend in yet another group. They can be pretty cagey--making sure that none of these friends know each other; thus, making it difficult for any one friend to realize the danger.

When you look back though--even when it is too late--you can see the trouble brewing.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I don't see any trouble in Gen's life that would fit the statistics for prerequisites to suicide.

I don't see it being accidental either--her path was a safe distance from the embankment. She wanted to get home and get her chores done. What would make her suddenly decide to veer off the path?

Re-reading my above ^^ I would delete where the part about my son and what I would do as it's too preachy...

It didn't sound preachy to me, Mr. Steve.

I think you put some thought into that, and I thank you for it.

 

[OldSteve]

Your mention, Truth Prevails, of how the water is not friendly to get next too -- that got me thinking about the reopening of Natalie Wood's death, and of her fear of water -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...wagner-interview-new-interview_n_2499950.html

It was mentioned that it was thought that Natalie's coat was buoyant and would have kept her afloat... so I wonder about Gen's backpack, especially they way it did not leave her - could her backpack (as well as what she was wearing) kept her afloat like a life preserver, allowing time for her scream, thresh about, and/or even be able to get out of the water?
or would it have been a detriment? Also whatever else she had on...

In Natalie's case, tests were done I believe to determine the buoyancy. . It shows how much is done when a person is famous, versus those of us who aren't...

I was also thinking in cases like this if there's pressure put on families to accept an accidental death cause, and when families begin to push LE to look into foul play, LE hints of it being a suicide as a way to get the family to back off... NOT saying this is the case here, just thinking out loud...

Apart from the stigma of suicide, there's also the legal implication of life insurance forfeiture...

 

[Truth Prevails]

Your mention, Truth Prevails, of how the water is not friendly to get next too -- that got me thinking about the reopening of Natalie Wood's death, and of her fear of water -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...wagner-interview-new-interview_n_2499950.html

It was mentioned that it was thought that Natalie's coat was buoyant and would have kept her afloat... so I wonder about Gen's backpack, especially they way it did not leave her - could her backpack (as well as what she was wearing) kept her afloat like a life preserver, allowing time for her scream, thresh about, and/or even be able to get out of the water?
or would it have been a detriment? Also whatever else she had on...

In Natalie's case, tests were done I believe to determine the buoyancy. . It shows how much is done when a person is famous, versus those of us who aren't...

Gosh, that's interesting. When you are trying to swim--struggling trying to make it to shore--the less you have on is better, I think. Anything that can fill with water and puff up or wrap around your limbs, would result in a definite hindrance.

I think at least the shoulder bag would only cause you to be weighed down.

I'm a little less sure about her jacket. I believe it was only thin nylon--almost like what might be referred to as a wind breaker, but it could have had a lining.

Just for quick reference, here are the pictures from the SJP as to what she was wearing. She wore her jacket zipped part way up.

http://www.saintjohn.ca/en/home/cit...on.aspx?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

For explanatory purposes, I'll add this little picture of what I think of as a shoulder bag/purse, and how most girls would wear one.

I think that would slip off so easily, or you would pitch it yourself. That could probably choke a person.

I was also thinking in cases like this if there's pressure put on families to accept an accidental death cause, and when families begin to push LE to look into foul play, LE hints of it being a suicide as a way to get the family to back off... NOT saying this is the case here, just thinking out loud...

Apart from the stigma of suicide, there's also the legal implication of life insurance forfeiture...

I think you are close here.

Whatever they decide, and for whatever reasons which they will never disclose fully, no one has any choice but to accept their decision.

But that doesn't mean they are right. Granted, it doesn't mean they are not right either. They have their reasons and sometimes justice may not be at the top of their priorities.

I'll argue that it should be.

Another thing I never thought of was life insurance. Definitely suicide affects that.

 

[Sandpiper]

I would love to know if Genna actually made it onto the path. Did dogs ever pick up any scent? She was reported missing on the Monday, we had rain and fog on the Tuesday. Did the dogs try to track after that? Would rain or fog affect the scent? There is a confirmed sighting in the Boaz parking lot wouldn't dogs pick up scent there and just follow it along. Just cannot believe there isn't something out there.

 

[bettiepageturner]

Gosh, that's interesting. When you are trying to swim--struggling trying to make it to shore--the less you have on is better, I think. Anything that can fill with water and puff up or wrap around your limbs, would result in a definite hindrance.

I think at least the shoulder bag would only cause you to be weighed down.

I'm a little less sure about her jacket. I believe it was only thin nylon--almost like what might be referred to as a wind breaker, but it could have had a lining.

Just for quick reference, here are the pictures from the SJP as to what she was wearing. She wore her jacket zipped part way up.

http://www.saintjohn.ca/en/home/cit...on.aspx?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

For explanatory purposes, I'll add this little picture of what I think of as a shoulder bag/purse, and how most girls would wear one.

I think that would slip off so easily, or you would pitch it yourself. That could probably choke a person.

I think you are close here.

Whatever they decide, and for whatever reasons which they will never disclose fully, no one has any choice but to accept their decision.

But that doesn't mean they are right. Granted, it doesn't mean they are not right either. They have their reasons and sometimes justice may not be at the top of their priorities.

I'll argue that it should be.

Another thing I never thought of was life insurance. Definitely suicide affects that.

Not to be nitpicky, but that's a crossbody.. If it just said "shoulder bag" the strap(s) would be very short; pretty much just a purse that hangs directly underneath your arm on one side. If the straps were let out to their full length it could definitely still pose a choking/weighing down hazard, though.

Wish we had more specific info!

 

[OldSteve]

I would love to know if Genna actually made it onto the path. Did dogs ever pick up any scent? She was reported missing on the Monday, we had rain and fog on the Tuesday. Did the dogs try to track after that? Would rain or fog affect the scent? There is a confirmed sighting in the Boaz parking lot wouldn't dogs pick up scent there and just follow it along. Just cannot believe there isn't something out there.

I wish I could remember all I've read about what dogs can/cannot do ...
also, not only using dogs, but people trained in tracking. Seems they are never used..

http://www.vsrda.org/about-vsrda/using-air-scent-dogs

Using google to search on - limits of what tracking dogs can do

 

[Truth Prevails]

I would love to know if Genna actually made it onto the path. Did dogs ever pick up any scent? She was reported missing on the Monday, we had rain and fog on the Tuesday. Did the dogs try to track after that? Would rain or fog affect the scent? There is a confirmed sighting in the Boaz parking lot wouldn't dogs pick up scent there and just follow it along. Just cannot believe there isn't something out there.

BBM - Same here, Sandpiper.

Early on, it was reported in the media that the dogs did not pick up her scent; but something made them search especially the treed area of the path Gen was known to walk.

I can find a request for the public's assistance to help find Genevieve dated October 1, from 88.9; so, they were moving on this right away.

It's hard to say how long it would have taken them to confirm where she was last seen, and get the dogs in. I don't think long, though.

Rain and fog certainly wouldn't help, but good dogs should have been able to pick up something.

I agree with you, if they haven't found more then they missed something.

I know they wouldn't have released everything that they found, but they have been saying all along that foul play was never suspected; they always insisted it was only a 'disappearance'--until she was finally found.

I don't know, but that really sounds like they never found anything that would make them suspect a kidnapping.

I'll add a little blow up of Gen's case map made by WS'er Unscripted. It shows the areas searched early on led by SJP.

I have added the red squares to make them stand out, but if you click on the link, the original map has more details.

You can see that the first area is quite far down the path. I always think of your earlier mention of the barricades being removed from the exit on Riverview Drive, possibly allowing a vehicle to enter and exit from that direction.

http://goo.gl/maps/WsDBG

Thank you for these excellent points!

 

[Truth Prevails]

Not to be nitpicky, but that's a crossbody.. If it just said "shoulder bag" the strap(s) would be very short; pretty much just a purse that hangs directly underneath your arm on one side. If the straps were let out to their full length it could definitely still pose a choking/weighing down hazard, though.

Wish we had more specific info!

First of all, let me say that I appreciate this comment. I did say that I attached the picture to show what thought came into my mind from the way it was described. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that.

You description could work also.

Here are a few comments that made me come up with my thoughts: (The bolding is by me.)

Hello, I should introduce myself. I am Katie, Genevieve's sister.

To answer a couple of questions right off, before I respond to individual posts a little more in depth, we (her family) absolutely do not believe Genna killed herself. We have no reason to believe that, nor do the police. In fact, police have told us they have no reason to suspect either foul play or suicide, and that they are still treating this as a criminal investigation. We are still waiting on the full autopsy results, also (e.g. toxicology).

As to how she was identified, Genna still had her passport on her when she was discovered. Gen was wearing an over-the-shoulder bag, and the bag was still with her, with her passport inside (she had her passport because that is what she used as identification). She did have a tattoo (a blackbird, with "Take these broken wings and learn to fly") on her shoulder and a scarification tattoo (a peace sign carved into her calf), but we were not told if either of those were still identifiable... we were simply told she was in the water a long time.

And this one:

We do believe an accident is possible... although our family believes it's unlikely and strongly suspects something bad happened to her... we just have nothing to give us any clues, so far. The police do seem to be leaning towards accidental, although they won't come right out and say so.
Yes, the bag was across her body... that is how she was so quickly and so easily identified.

Everyone, thank you all for the warm welcome and support. :heartbeat:

 

[Truth Prevails]

I wish I could remember all I've read about what dogs can/cannot do ...
also, not only using dogs, but people trained in tracking. Seems they are never used..

http://www.vsrda.org/about-vsrda/using-air-scent-dogs

Using google to search on - limits of what tracking dogs can do

Thanks for this link. This is only one part stood out for me:

Bad weather does not limit use of search dogs

Air scenting search dogs can be used in almost any weather. Although strong winds, snow or heavy rain may destroy all traces or a subject’s track, the subject is still emitting scent, even if deceased. Wind helps rather than hinders the dog’s ability to detect scent. Light rain will rehydrate scent emitting particles that may have dried up during the day.
http://www.vsrda.org/about-vsrda/using-air-scent-dogs[/B]

That's really good to know.

Here is a short link describing some of the training that the dogs who serve the Saint John Police Force receive:
http://www.saintjohn.ca/en/home/cit...ce/services/emergencyresponse/canineunit.aspx

And this is the video where SJP confirm that they searched for Gen utilizing infrared cameras; dogs; grid searches; gathered surveillance footage; and used Canadian Coast Guard resources on land and in the air.
http://youtu.be/byT524OLZiY

I just came across this one. It confirms they found Gen at 2:40 pm. (Saturday, Nov. 2/13)
http://youtu.be/28mBzmrhYsk

 

[OldSteve]

Thanks Truth (hope nickname is okay) for info about the searches that were done in post ^^.

Wow! It's another puzzle, that nothing was found to show where she entered/fell/pushed/ into the water? How did she get into it? I can't tell if there's a place where one could make a clean jump from the path into the water?

So few at this thread now ... wonder if family decided to let things be as they are....
I can understand family in these cases become anxious that in pushing, the cause of death might get changed to suicide... (as I mentioned upthread)...

 

[Truth Prevails]

Thank Truth Prevails for info about the searches that were done in your post ^^.

Wow! It's another puzzle, that nothing was found to show where she entered/fell/pushed/ into the water?

So few at this thread now ... wonder if family decided to let things be as they are....

what a mystery though!

It is indeed, Mr. Steve.

I know, it is petering out. We took a stand for her, though! She will always be in my prayers.

Genevieve deserves justice!

You know, last night I was thinking of a local case in my area. It has no true relevance to Gen's case; but yet there are some interesting similarities.

I'll add a couple of links, but--briefly--a lady disappeared from a shopping mall on her way home from work one evening.

This link has a bit of background: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/missing-moncton-woman-s-family-pleads-for-help-1.923092

They had a surveillance video of her leaving the mall, but that was it--not a trace of her could be found once she walked out those doors. For about two weeks law enforcement did put forth a major effort. I personally remember it--they had dogs, helicopters--everything.

Now it is interesting to note that the woman had her purse and a lunch bag with her.

Once law enforcement could find not one trace of her, the following article appeared.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/rcmp-make-new-plea-to-missing-moncton-woman-1.903388

I won't quote anything from it because it is so far off topic; but, in my own words, they were putting it out there that she had disappeared of her own free will. (Her family always disagreed.)

A lot of people fell for it, too.

Okay, now here is the shocker. Two weeks after law enforcement tried to convince us, the public, and her family, that she had disappeared because she wanted to disappear, the lady escaped her captor.

The truth came out that she had been taken at knife point and held against her will, with him almost daily making her do whatever he wanted. (That's as nice a way as possible for me to say it.

Here is a link to an article with a few videos of her testifying at her trial. (He got 18 years.)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...evil-kidnapper-allegedly-told-victim-1.978194

But, the first things I want to point out is that she appeared to vanish; the dogs didn't pick up her scent; she had items in her hand, later even saying that he had cut her hand and made it bleed. Somehow, they managed to never find a trace of her--until she turned up on her own.

The second thing--and this keeps me awake some nights--if she had been found months down the road in the river, would they have said it was suicide or accidental causes? (I just mean that as rhetorical.)

But there you have it, it's not just one city--it's across the province.

Here is a couple of other good ones. Just read these few lines:

Based on the initial results of the autopsy and the police investigation, investigators say foul play is not suspect in Mertin’s death.

However, they are asking to speak with anyone who may have had contact with her in the days leading up to her disappearance.
Read more: http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/foul-pla...rom-petitcodiac-river-1.1359879#ixzz2muMTDwyY

And this one:

The autopsy revealed no physical injuries on the woman and foul play is not suspected. Further testing will take place to determine the cause of death but that may take several months.

The investigation is ongoing.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/nb/news-nouvelles/releases-communiques/Mar3110_133547-eng.htm

Sound familiar? They say there is no foul play suspected just about as soon as the body has been removed from the scene, and that's the last we hear.

 

[OldSteve]

Lots to read in the ^^ Truth! Oh, no need for the "Mr.", Steve is fine...

I think once the ME (medical examiner) says "no foul play" that gives LE a pass not to look further.

Amazing the power ME's have, though there should be interplay between LE and ME dept.'s to prevent writing off cases that shouldn't be... though things being the way they are with tight budgets, limited resources, and "why rock the boat" the interplay could be one that becomes self-serving. Saying this in general.... no accusing dept.'s in this case...

 

[Sandpiper]

I wish I could remember all I've read about what dogs can/cannot do ...
also, not only using dogs, but people trained in tracking. Seems they are never used..

http://www.vsrda.org/about-vsrda/using-air-scent-dogs

Using google to search on - limits of what tracking dogs can do

Thanks for the information on dogs. So I guess scent dogs are different than tracking dogs? I find this whole dog subject somewhat confusing. Guess it comes down to the fact that the sooner they are on the scene the better.

 

[Sandpiper]

Thanks for this link. This is only one part stood out for me:



That's really good to know.

Here is a short link describing some of the training that the dogs who serve the Saint John Police Force receive:
http://www.saintjohn.ca/en/home/cit...ce/services/emergencyresponse/canineunit.aspx

And this is the video where SJP confirm that they searched for Gen utilizing infrared cameras; dogs; grid searches; gathered surveillance footage; and used Canadian Coast Guard resources on land and in the air.
http://youtu.be/byT524OLZiY

I just came across this one. It confirms they found Gen at 2:40 pm. (Saturday, Nov. 2/13)
http://youtu.be/28mBzmrhYsk

Been trying to get back to this all day! This police confirmation of area of search and methods of search is dated Oct 18. When did the dog search actually take place? Do the dogs used by the SJP just track or are they also scent dogs? I saw the dog searching in the Sea Side Park area,the dog was on a lead and sniffing the ground.Stupid me I can't remember the date. It's the late date of the video that is a little upsetting why was the dog info not updated on video for say Oct 11? Oct 18 is Along time from Sept 29.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Lots to read in the ^^ Truth! Oh, no need for the "Mr.", Steve is fine...

I think once the ME (medical examiner) says "no foul play" that gives LE a pass not to look further.

Amazing the power ME's have, though there should be interplay between LE and ME dept.'s to prevent writing off cases that shouldn't be... though things being the way they are with tight budgets, limited resources, and "why rock the boat" the interplay could be one that becomes self-serving. Saying this in general.... no accusing dept.'s in this case...

BBM - you have hit on an important point here.

I'm not sure of who is getting the pass or exactly what direction it's coming from.

The offices do work together, but it seems that the decision is made right there at the crime scene before a thorough examination of the body and the evidence has been done.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Been trying to get back to this all day! This police confirmation of area of search and methods of search is dated Oct 18. When did the dog search actually take place? Do the dogs used by the SJP just track or are they also scent dogs? I saw the dog searching in the Sea Side Park area,the dog was on a lead and sniffing the ground.Stupid me I can't remember the date. It's the late date of the video that is a little upsetting why was the dog info not updated on video for say Oct 11? Oct 18 is Along time from Sept 29.

I wish we had more information on this, too.

I can't find anything to confirm when the searches by dog were done. I haven't seen the Oct. 11th video, but I agree with your point about why wouldn't it have been mentioned at that time if it had been done.

I came across the article below dated Thursday, Oct. 3, and it mentions that they were doing the grid searches.

I would hope that they would have already had the dogs in before they started the grid search
.
http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/police-expand-search-for-missing-saint-john-woman-1.1482453#ixzz2ght6U49r
__________

I think the dogs track by scent, if that is any help; but they have to be highly trained.

My understanding is that they should be trained for specific purposes; for example, dogs who find drugs are not the same dogs that would be used to track a person. Also, cadaver dogs should be trained only for that purpose.

I'm not seeing any distinction made in that link I posted earlier, so I'm not sure how it's handled locally.

 

[Sandpiper]

BBM - you have hit on an important point here.

I'm not sure of who is getting the pass or exactly what direction it's coming from.

The offices do work together, but it seems that the decision is made right there at the crime scene before a thorough examination of the body and the evidence has been done.

I agree with you,unless there is evidence the public is not privey too the only evidence and circumstance is the fact that three women have been found in the water in Saint John NB. Sad to say this and hope that Iam wrong but don't believe the autopsy results will make anything more clear or point in any one direction.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Thanks for the information on dogs. So I guess scent dogs are different than tracking dogs? I find this whole dog subject somewhat confusing. Guess it comes down to the fact that the sooner they are on the scene the better.

I find it confusing, too.

I find your memory excellent, btw. I can't believe how you even remember the weather for the specific days.

Awesome.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I agree with you,unless there is evidence the public is not privey too the only evidence and circumstance is the fact that three women have been found in the water in Saint John NB. Sad to say this and hope that Iam wrong but don't believe the autopsy results will make anything more clear or point in any one direction.

We agree about the autopsy reports, too. Their results seem to be ordained before a single cut is made.

You know, I appreciate that some facts need to be held back to protect the integrity of every investigation; but I think when we hear the words "no foul play" we can be sure that they are closing these cases.

IDK, but it could almost be interpreted by whoever is doing this to come back and do it again.

If he ever makes a mistake and gets caught, he will only have to do time for that one case.

I want someone to see that the lives of these three women mattered; and the lives of so many more across this province, who are just being termed as suicides; or accidental deaths.

 

[OldSteve]

Was thinking about the "no foul play" and considering how rough the water is around these towns -- this could be used to advantage by someone with evil intentions.

A body that's been exposed to that rough water must be heavily bruised/damaged, masking bruises a person would have if taken by force and who may have fought... As long as there no ligature marks. But even then, there are cases of suicide in which the victim ties there own hands, and in those cases the knot has to be carefully examined to see if self tied.