Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Cormier, 19, St John, NB, 29 Sept 2013 - #2

[OldSteve]

Thanks TruthPrevails for all your info!

Unless either family or media puts pressure on LE, I don't think much will happen since the medical examiner indicates no foul play. Seems the system is such that it looks at each victim for signs of foul play without taking into account that something too strange to be natural is taking place. (Especially as you mentioned,

not a trace of these women was found until they washed ashore--not a bracelet; not an earring; not a cell phone; not a backpack, absolutely nothing.

I wonder if there's a devious killer out there who knows this flaw in the justice system and is using that to sick advantage.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Re: Found Deceased - Elizabeth (Beth) Fellows MISSING Jan 24th 2012

{Respectfully Snipped by me.}

Found on the River bank,an hour from where Genn, Yeonhee, and Shelbywere found.........

Regarding Elizabeth Fellows, she was found right behind the small shopping area she was last seen at, (they have video footage.) She was possibly at the liquor store in that mall, but I can't find that confirmed.

She had some kind of problem where she required methadone; and her death was attributed to hypothermia.

My deepest condolences go out to her family.

I agree that questioning whether this was a case of her sitting on the river bank and freezing, or whether this was murder is appropriate.

I don't believe it is in any way related to Genevieve's death; nor Shelby's and Yeonhee's.

Regarding her being found on the bank of the Saint John River, I think it is important to note that she was found on the "bank," not in the river for days.

www.newbrunswickbeacon.ca/subjects/cause-of-death/
Two other deaths in Fredericton....one young male teacher found in the Saint John River in Fredericton and a pregnant young woman found in woods in Fredericton......2012

I don't see the death of the male being connected, other than that it is quite possibly a murder closed as a suicide.

The pregnant woman's death--she was found in a ditch, no mention of the river--seems to have at least been alarming enough to cause law enforcement to call it "suspicious." I don't think they have closed this.

www.monctonblogger.com/.../alanna-greenes-body-found-missing-moncto...

I am also looking into Moncton ,which is completes a triangle between Saint John and Fredericton.This girl was also just walking...

Yes, Saint John, Moncton, and Fredericton create a triangle. The Saint John River does not run through Moncton. (We have to settle for the muddy Petiticodiac River.)

Driving from Saint John to Moncton should take approximately one hour and 32 minutes.

Driving from Moncton to Fredericton should take approximately one hour and 45 minutes.

Driving from Fredericton to Saint John should take approximately one hour and 14 minutes. (This is a newer route, the older routes take one hour 30 minutes, approximately.)

These times will vary somewhat due to driving conditions, and making it in Google time requires constant driving--pedal to the speed limit at the minimum, and no stopping for coffee.

I know it is common for people from larger cities to talk about a 60 minute drive; or a 90 minute drive as if it is nothing at all; but to us who live way down east, it is considered a serious drive.

Most of us live within a 10 to 15 minute drive from our work, and that includes time required for sitting in traffic.

Another peculiar thing about us is that local people are inclined to use the back roads, and this adds serious driving time between the cities.

Saint John to Moncton
Moncton to Fredericton
Fredericton to Saint John

Foul play not suspected after body found in Moncton park: RCMP ...
atlantic.ctvnews.ca/foul-play-not-suspected-after-body-found-in-moncton-...
Sep 24, 2012 - RCMP have confirmed that 29-year-old Alanna Greene was found in Mapleton Park, just off Mapleton Road, before 4 p.m. Sunday. Greene was ...

My apologies...the first link does not appear to work.This girl had run out to do an errand and was found in a park,not far from the road......and foul play also not suspected?????:scared:

I followed what little was released on this case to follow, and I found it suspicious right from the start.

I still struggle with it, but no one really disputed it was suicide--whether there was something in her past that her family didn't want brought out, we will never know for sure.

Also, I never heard of all the disappearences in Fredericton despite being only an hour or so down the highway.

Nice to see you dropping in!

As sad as they are, I don't think they are related to Genevieve's case.

I'm not denying that the province of New Brunswick seems to have an unfortunate habit of terming murders as suicides.

Although, Fredericton seems a little less quick to do so than Moncton, or Saint John.

I find that interesting.

Thanks TruthPrevails for all your info!

Unless either family or media puts pressure on LE, I don't think much will happen since the medical examiner indicates no foul play. Seems the system is such that it looks at each victim for signs of foul play without taking into account that something too strange to be natural is taking place. (Especially as you mentioned,


I wonder if there's a devious killer out there who knows this flaw in the justice system and is using that to sick advantage.

I agree. And interesting to note, and this is in my opinion only but comes from a little experience--law enforcement will pressure the family right from the very start with questions about suicide.

You may have just found out your loved one is gone; you are in shock and disbelief; horror and devastation is swirling around you--and in walks these huge, towering figures with questions about the death of your loved one being suicide.

They are polite but do not make nice--they want answers and they will push for the answers they want to hear.

In my experience, I just wanted them to go away. I couldn't deal with them.

I think you are absolutely correct about there being a killer out here that knows the system--but I think it is more than one.

I mean, they have to be silently laughing as they read the media reports about another "suicide." They know what they did, and that they will get away with it.

In Genevieve's case, though, I think we are looking for one man responsible for three murders.

Justice for Genevieve, Shelby, and Yeonhee!

 

[Truth Prevails]

Wow!! Very interesting and informative post on suicide. Also, is it just me or does that picture of Shelby look very similar to pictures of Gen? Until I read the printing beside the pic I thought it WAS genevieve.

For me, it was the hair. Those long, beautiful, curled locks--although she had cut her hair by 2012.

I think Shelby is the key to these three murders in Saint John.

A lot of girls who go out uptown are very savvy. She would have most likely only left with someone she believed she knew.

So--an old friend from high school? Maybe an old friend from the west side that she hadn't seen in ages?

Did they bother with surveillance videos? Any chance they might have seen the same person around in any surveillance videos from the hours before Genevieve went missing?

But most of all, have the even bothered to check?

 

[Truth Prevails]

This is fantastic work Truth and thank you. Awww such another beautiful young lady. UBM-I agree and I cannot see someone choosing to commit suicide that way either. Wouldn't they think "what if I fail and suffer?". I know that sounds like a strange thing to say, but don't people who commit suicide want to do it in a way where it is fast and painless?! I would suspect so. JMO.

Oh, yes, this is so.

Statistics show that women don't like to shoot themselves--especially in the face. We always value the way we look, I guess--although it seems so poignant put in this context.

I can't even go to the place where I would want my body to wind up in the Saint John River in any vicinity--but especially the Reversing Falls vicinity.

When you stand on that bridge and look down--the water is loud and swirling. It froths and foams. Its impression is foreboding.

Your instincts kick in and they tell you to keep away.

Local people know to stay far away from the embankment--even if it is not fenced. We--and I say we because I lived there for a period in my life--look for solid ground because we don't want to slip and fall in there.

We know there will be no coming back.

Even in suicide attempts, the reality is that most people do not want to die. Suicide attempts are really desperate pleas for help.

 

[OldSteve]

Wonder what the most common method of suicide is for women?

My wife's cousin cut her wrists and ended her troubled life that way. Cannot imagine doing that, despite fact that because of my iron rich blood I had to give all my blood (12 units) over the course of a couple of months..

Wonder too if any of these women had pets they loved and whom depended upon them?
I say that because I worry about the fate of our cats should something happen to us...

 

[jillybean51]

Oh, yes, this is so.

Statistics show that women don't like to shoot themselves--especially in the face. We always value the way we look, I guess--although it seems so poignant put in this context.

I can't even go to the place where I would want my body to wind up in the Saint John River in any vicinity--but especially the Reversing Falls vicinity.

When you stand on that bridge and look down--the water is loud and swirling. It froths and foams. Its impression is foreboding.

Your instincts kick in and they tell you to keep away.

Local people know to stay far away from the embankment--even if it is not fenced. We--and I say we because I lived there for a period in my life--look for solid ground because we don't want to slip and fall in there.

We know there will be no coming back.

Even in suicide attempts, the reality is that most people do not want to die. Suicide attempts are really desperate pleas for help.

The most troubling thing for me is that no suicide note was left.I wouldn't think you would want your family to deal with the " not knowing " aspect of it all.If a note had been left,I wouldn't think the police would appeal to the public for info !:banghead:

 

[Truth Prevails]

Wonder what the most common method of suicide is for women?

My wife's cousin cut her wrists and ended her troubled life that way. Cannot imagine doing that, despite fact that because of my iron rich blood I had to give all my blood (12 units) over the course of a couple of months..

Wonder too if any of these women had pets they loved and whom depended upon them?
I say that because I worry about the fate of our cats should something happen to us...

The most common way women commit suicide is through an overdose. I see they refer to it as "poison," but I suppose they are poisoning their systems with medication, (or street drugs.)

Quote: Males were most likely to commit suicide by hanging (46%) while females most often died by poisoning (42%) (Chart 2). Males (20%) were far more likely to use firearms than females (3%).
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/11696-eng.htm

There are exceptions to everything, though.

Two of these women had children--Yeonhee; a teen aged daughter (that she had come all the way to Canada to insure her a quality education.

And Shelby--a three year old son.

But you are absolutely correct about animals. They taught us that at the crisis line--find out if they have pets, and try guilting them as much you can.

Anything will do--a bird, a fish, a turtle. Cats and dogs are good. Anything to get them to understand that their lives have meaning and something they love is depending on them.

Goodness--I'm glad you saved some of that iron rich blood for yourself.

 

[Truth Prevails]

The most troubling thing for me is that no suicide note was left.I wouldn't think you would want your family to deal with the " not knowing " aspect of it all.If a note had been left,I wouldn't think the police would appeal to the public for info !:banghead:

It's really a myth that most people who commit suicide leave a note--most really do not.

Quote:
Myth: All true suicides leave a suicide note.
Fact: No, in fact a surprising number of people do not leave suicide notes. According to Canadian researcher Dr. A. Leenaars, who has extensively studied suicide notes, and only 12 to 37% leave notes.
http://www.distresscentreoakville.com/suicide-myths-facts.php

In a way, I wish notes were more common as in Genevieve's case it would help to prove that it was not suicide.

I mean--when would she have written a note? She was with her friends all Saturday evening and night; again with her friends on Sunday until she left for her west side home. There is evidence of her walking along at a good pace until she just disappears.

And if she had stopped to write a note--what would she have done with it? Placed it on the path with a rock on top, hoping someone would find it?

Genevieve's death was not from suicide, note or no note. imo

 

[jillybean51]

It's really a myth that most people who commit suicide leave a note--most really do not.

Quote:
Myth: All true suicides leave a suicide note.
Fact: No, in fact a surprising number of people do not leave suicide notes. According to Canadian researcher Dr. A. Leenaars, who has extensively studied suicide notes, and only 12 to 37% leave notes.
http://www.distresscentreoakville.com/suicide-myths-facts.php

In a way, I wish notes were more common as in Genevieve's case it would help to prove that it was not suicide.

I mean--when would she have written a note? She was with her friends all Saturday evening and night; again with her friends on Sunday until she left for her west side home. There is evidence of her walking along at a good pace until she just disappears.

And if she had stopped to write a note--what would she have done with it? Placed it on the path with a rock on top, hoping someone would find it?

Genevieve's death was not from suicide, note or no note. imo

In today's day and age ,I thought she might have texted someone? Great work on the stats Truth!I agree it was not suicide.

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Causes of suicide:
Mental illness: Yeonhee; yes, but was taking medication for her depression. Shelby; no. Genevieve; anxiety.

I read Shelby had an issue with drugs, an addiction problem. This should be classified under mental illness, no?

Regarding Elizabeth Fellows, she was found right behind the small shopping area she was last seen at, (they have video footage.) She was possibly at the liquor store in that mall, but I can't find that confirmed.

She had some kind of problem where she required methadone; and her death was attributed to hypothermia.

I read the comments on the blog about a possible serial killer in Fredricton, where Elizabeth's photo is posted, and in the comments someone wrote that they were a family member of Elizabeth and that she was NOT murdered. Methadone can make you pass out, much like heroin.

It's really a myth that most people who commit suicide leave a note--most really do not.

we have no evidence or statements to confirm that notes were NOT left by any of these 3. I highly doubt it, but we don't know this for sure.

Agree! That they all were drowning, all no note, all women... does raise an eyebrow...

I have no seen cause of death in any of the 3 cases, can you confirm your information on drowning please? or do you mean they were all found in the water?


I do believe that something may have happened to these women and they possibly did not take their own lives. But, I also believe that if my family member had gone missing and then was found, and the cause of death was proven suicide and there was medical proof of that, I am not sure that I would want that information released to the media. Also, if there was a note or something found with the body or elsewhere, i am not sure I would want that released either.

So could it be possible that there is significant information / evidence that confirms these were all in fact suicides (the police and family have this information), and that we are not privy to that information?

 

[LoyalSleuth]

I wonder if a crime show, like 48hours or Fifth Estate would do a show on this. They would approach the families.

 

[OldSteve]

Thanks again Truth Prevails for the stats and your drive to keep pressure on this case.

These women sure do NOT sound like they would want to end it all!

Two of these women had children--Yeonhee; a teen aged daughter (that she had come all the way to Canada to insure her a quality education.

And Shelby--a three year old son.

And Gen's life seemed so full, busy - what time to suddenly stop and say think I'll end it all now...

Be interesting to know if there were any reports to LE in the months before first case of anyone trying or doing something suspicious. Usually, a killer needs to gain experience is their method... Could have come from another place, though...
Wonder if a woman could be involved.... a crazy woman serial killer would have the advantage of not appearing as alarming; even able to get close or create a rouse of some sort for help...

Wish we knew about medical examiner's findings. Too bad outside expert wasn't brought in...

Okay, sorry, just rambling...

Oh - last thought, didn't know for men, hanging was way most end it. Cannot see doing that!

 

[Truth Prevails]

I read Shelby had an issue with drugs, an addiction problem. This should be classified under mental illness, no?

I haven’t come across the fact that “Shelby had an issue with drugs, an addiction problem.” Would you have a link for that?

I don’t mean to be naive—I do expect that she had some exposure. However the only thing I can find suggesting anything in this regard, is her friend carefully side stepping the reporter’s questions.

Depending, of course, on the meaning of the words "issue with drugs," I wouldn’t categorize occasional drug use as a “mental illness” serious enough to be classified as a reason for suicide; although maybe the professionals do.

Alcohol is also a drug. I wonder if everyone who has a drink on a Friday night would be classified as having a “mental illness.”

I read the comments on the blog about a possible serial killer in Fredricton, where Elizabeth's photo is posted, and in the comments someone wrote that they were a family member of Elizabeth and that she was NOT murdered. Methadone can make you pass out, much like heroin.

I, too, have read the comments on that blog. In case I haven’t been clear enough, I do not believe that Ms. Fellows’ unfortunate death is in any way, shape, or form related to the deaths of Genevieve, Shelby and Yeonhee.

we have no evidence or statements to confirm that notes were NOT left by any of these 3. I highly doubt it, but we don't know this for sure.

With the amount of public concern over these cases, we can rest assured that law enforcement would have had it reported that suicide notes were in existence. We would not be privileged to what was said in them, but we would have heard about the notes.

Agree! That they all were drowning, all no note, all women... does raise an eyebrow...

I have no seen cause of death in any of the 3 cases, can you confirm your information on drowning please? or do you mean they were all found in the water?

As this is not my comment, I’ll not address it.

It’s a good idea to quote another’s comment by using either the quote or multi quote buttons, so that we can see who made the comment. Also by using that method, the quoted comment contains a snap back feature which allows one to go quickly back to review the original context of the conversation.

I do believe that something may have happened to these women and they possibly did not take their own lives. But, I also believe that if my family member had gone missing and then was found, and the cause of death was proven suicide and there was medical proof of that, I am not sure that I would want that information released to the media. Also, if there was a note or something found with the body or elsewhere, i am not sure I would want that released either.

So could it be possible that there is significant information / evidence that confirms these were all in fact suicides (the police and family have this information), and that we are not privy to that information?

This is my opinion only, but I absolutely do not believe that significant information/evidence confirming these deaths were all in fact suicides has been given to the families of these victims.

Genevieve’s family have been the strongest; the most open; and spoke out immediately against it when they heard the very first mention of suicide being connect to her death. I applaud them.

Families go quiet sometimes because they do not want the reputation of their loved ones further trashed in the public eye; and even if they decided to brave it, they know in the end they would not win the battle with law enforcement. They. Would. Not. Win.

I suggest what is being said about Shelby’s possible drug abuse is a good example of unnecessarily damaging a victims reputation.

I am a lifelong resident of this province and I recognize the doublespeak when I hear it.

As citizens, we all recognize that we have no right to personal information and we all respect that fact. Not a one of us would ever want to cause an extra moment’s pain to any surviving family member or friend of these victims, by having anything released that they would find disrespectful to their loved ones.

We want justice for these victims, and we want assurance that we will not be the next victim. We are entitled to that, and I’m sure that our officials could and would find a respectful way to offer that reassurance to us if it did exist.

That lack of reassurance—combined with empty words and platitudes about our hard working, vacation deserving law enforcement personnel—should rate right up there as an indication that something is seriously wrong. :cow:

 

[Truth Prevails]

Thanks again Truth Prevails for the stats and your drive to keep pressure on this case.

These women sure do NOT sound like they would want to end it all!



And Gen's life seemed so full, busy - what time to suddenly stop and say think I'll end it all now...

Be interesting to know if there were any reports to LE in the months before first case of anyone trying or doing something suspicious. Usually, a killer needs to gain experience is their method... Could have come from another place, though...
Wonder if a woman could be involved.... a crazy woman serial killer would have the advantage of not appearing as alarming; even able to get close or create a rouse of some sort for help...

Wish we knew about medical examiner's findings. Too bad outside expert wasn't brought in...

Okay, sorry, just rambling...

Oh - last thought, didn't know for men, hanging was way most end it. Cannot see doing that!

That's the impression I get, too.

And when we combine what precious few facts we have: such as the timing of the women going missing; the locations where they were found; and the common areas searched--we are left with a much different scenario.

A competently done autopsy should allow them to tell definitively if Genevieve, Shelby, and Yeonhee were dead before they entered the water.

It is small facts like that, that would help ease an appropriately concerned public's mind--so, if they exist, why are we not hearing them?

You make an excellent point about a killer often times practicing--sometimes they do; even with helpless animals. Which would most likely have gone unreported.

Or from another place--yes, also an excellent point.

Another interesting point you make is about our perpetrator possibly being a woman. It could be--she would have to be a fair sized woman, though.

In the end, I would really expect there to be a struggle. I believe life is precious to everyone, and that everyone will try to fight for their life.

I don't know how he or she is getting these women, but I believe a vehicle is involved.

It looks to me like they are so busy denying there is problem, that asking for help from neighboring polices forces hasn't occurred. If it has, it is being kept secret. (And that is entirely possible.)

You know, a female friend of my sister's went down in her basement and hung herself. (She had had repeated suicide attempts, going back years.)

The thought just makes me shudder. I don't think that is a quick way to go.

 

[OldSteve]

Good points Truth Prevails in above post!

Hadn't thought about use of helpless animals - hope any reports of that has been looked into. But for some reason, I get the feeling there is no interest on the part of LE....

Something you mentioned -

You know, a female friend of my sister's went down in her basement and hung herself. (She had had repeated suicide attempts, going back years.)

BBM - I have a feeling that most, and especially women, make attempts that fail before actually succeeding. My wife's cousin had half-heartily tried at least once with sleeping pills.... So the question here is, did any of these women ever try before?
If not, then that's a huge red flag, along with all the other things you mentioned. An on going list would be good of known and unknown things....

ETA - my mention of "especially women" is in no way meant as anything against women. It's simply a feeling I have that women would be more open to calling out for help than men, and the initial failed attempts are pleas for help...

 

[Truth Prevails]

Good points Truth Prevails in above post!

Hadn't thought about use of helpless animals - hope any reports of that has been looked into. But for some reason, I get the feeling there is no interest on the part of LE....

BBM - I get the same feeling that there is no interest on the part of LE. I pray I'm wrong, though. I have this dream where they are really working hard on these three cases behind closed doors, so as to not alarm the public; but, on my negative days, I recognize it as just a dream.

Something you mentioned -

BBM - I have a feeling that most, and especially women, make attempts that fail before actually succeeding. My wife's cousin had half-heartily tried at least once with sleeping pills.... So the question here is, did any of these women ever try before?

If not, then that's a huge red flag, along with all the other things you mentioned. An on going list would be good of known and unknown things....

ETA - my mention of "especially women" is in no way meant as anything against women. It's simply a feeling I have that women would be more open to calling out for help than men, and the initial failed attempts are pleas for help...

Regarding the bold by me in the second part of your comment, with Genevieve I feel that we can say 'no.' Her mother and aunt were firm in their statements that Genna had only had a little anxiety in her past and promptly accepted professional help to deal with it.

I'm sure many will disagree with me, but this is when we would have heard about prior suicide attempts. They were not holding anything back, imo.

We know so little about Shelby that it is difficult to say; although her life long friend said that she would never disappear for days without telling anyone. IMO, that is a 'people' person he was describing; not a depressed individual prone to suicide attempts.

Yeonhee is even more of a mystery. Her husband said that she was on medication for depression, but he didn't say for how long. He did say she had left her medication at home. As she had only been in Canada for less than two years, it's harder to grasp what would have been unusual for her.

So I really believe there is a huge red flag in even this one area. I wouldn't be surprised that the details we have heard concerning anxiety and depression were put forth after intensive questioning by law enforcement, leaving the loved ones reeling and confused.

Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean regarding a list of known and unknown things? That sounds interesting, and I wouldn't mind working on it.

Yup, statistics show that women attempt suicide three to four times more often than men--we just aren't as successful.

No worries about singling out women--statistics show you are spot on!

"Deaths by suicide, it should be noted, reflect only a small percentage of suicide attempts. It is estimated that for every completed suicide there are as many as 20 attempts.9Although males are more likely to die from suicide, females are three to four times more likely to attempt it.10,11 Furthermore, females are hospitalized for attempted suicide 1.5 times more frequently than males.12

This discrepancy may be due to the fact that females tend to use less fatal methods,5 such as poisoning—the most common cause of self-harm hospital admissions—whereas males tend to use more violent methods such as hanging and firearms (Chart 2).12"
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/11696-eng.htm

 

[OldSteve]

Here's something to read:

"One of the striking findings in the pres-
ent study was the absence of female cases under 30
years of age, contrasting with relatively high num-
bers of males between 20 and 39 years of age"

also

"Given their rarity, cases of apparent suicidal
drowning in young women therefore should un-
dergo very careful investigation before accidents or
homicides are excluded."


from:

Characteristic Features of Suicidal Drownings A 20-Year Study
http://netk.net.au/Medical/Drowning1.pdf

 

[RainyAlaska]

"Given their rarity, cases of apparent suicidal
drowning in young women therefore should un-
dergo very careful investigation before accidents or
homicides are excluded."


from:

Characteristic Features of Suicidal Drownings A 20-Year Study
http://netk.net.au/Medical/Drowning1.pdf

And to have multiple "apparent suicidal drownings" in one small area should be a cause for concern. I'm still not convinced that Genn wanted to end her life. Someone needs to examine these drownings closely. Thanks Old Steve!

 

[Inquisitive_Kat]

Hello, I should introduce myself. I am Katie, Genevieve's sister.

To answer a couple of questions right off, before I respond to individual posts a little more in depth, we (her family) absolutely do not believe Genna killed herself. We have no reason to believe that, nor do the police. In fact, police have told us they have no reason to suspect either foul play or suicide, and that they are still treating this as a criminal investigation. We are still waiting on the full autopsy results, also (e.g. toxicology).

As to how she was identified, Genna still had her passport on her when she was discovered. Gen was wearing an over-the-shoulder bag, and the bag was still with her, with her passport inside (she had her passport because that is what she used as identification). She did have a tattoo (a blackbird, with "Take these broken wings and learn to fly") on her shoulder and a scarification tattoo (a peace sign carved into her calf), but we were not told if either of those were still identifiable... we were simply told she was in the water a long time.

 

[Inquisitive_Kat]

Unless either family or media puts pressure on LE, I don't think much will happen since the medical examiner indicates no foul play.

Trust me, we (her family) are not going to let this rest... we will find out what happened and we will not let the police dismiss us.