GUILTY Canada - Loretta Saunders, 26, Halifax, NS, 13 February 2014 #2

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I agree I believed she was killed do to a false sense of entitlement, jealousy and greed
Yes, I agree with this and I'm certain that that is how the Crown will bring forward the case of Loretta's senseless murder.

It does not mean that they are not avoiding the most uncomfortable issue, however.

I will also add that I am thankful for the first degree murder charges--at least Loretta's murder won't go unpunished--nor unnoticed--as so many before her.
 
Hi guys, I'm new to the forum, but I am strongly of the opinion that it's overly simplistic to say that her murder has nothing to do with her aboriginal heritage. Note that I'm not saying she was murdered because she's aboriginal - but I do think it's a factor. Much like how living in a certain area might mean higher risk of cancer, but if you then get cancer no one is going to say, "this cancer was caused by living in this region." But not being the cause doesn't mean it's not a factor.

I think why Loretta's aboriginal ancestry is a factor is because murderers often, consciously or unconsciously, pick their victims based on the reactions they want from society and there are assumptions about whether society will react by valuing that person. A serial killer interested in notoriety might pick blonde housewives because it will make the biggest media sensation. A man interested in a rape victim that he can dispose of might choose aboriginal women because their disappearance isn't likely to be reported and investigated swiftly, if at all.

In the same way that when someone irritates you, you make split second decisions and decide whether to fire back at them differently based on whether they're a McDonald's cashier or your boss - I think predators make decisions about who are ideal victims based on social power and perceived importance. VH and BL probably didn't say to themselves "let's kill an Indian" but they probably looked at her with her small-town, possibly reservation background, family living far away and who mostly look aboriginal and they likely thought, "who's going to miss her and report her? And if they do, who would listen? She doesn't matter."
Welcome, Megarita!

Thank you for this thought provoking comment.

Regarding the bold by me--Exactly. The carelessness exhibited by the alleged murderers could be seen to exhibit that attitude.
 
Paraphrased: Loretta Saunders was found in a hockey bag in the ditch in New Brunswick. This information just released on CTV news:

Video of newscast: http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=302955

Watch the ad and then at about the 00:08 to 00:12 mark of the video.
Thank you for this link, Elpher.

I sincerely hope that they have a surveillance video of the two accused murderers leaving the apartment with the hockey bag.

That would have a powerful impact at trial.
 
Thank you for this link, Elpher.

I sincerely hope that they have a surveillance video of the two accused murderers leaving the apartment with the hockey bag.

That would have a powerful impact at trial.

Very, very powerful and I am also thinking that they may just have a witness in the cab driver they found and interviewed that was sitting in the circle outside the apartment building.
 
Hi guys, I'm new to the forum, but I am strongly of the opinion that it's overly simplistic to say that her murder has nothing to do with her aboriginal heritage. Note that I'm not saying she was murdered because she's aboriginal - but I do think it's a factor. Much like how living in a certain area might mean higher risk of cancer, but if you then get cancer no one is going to say, "this cancer was caused by living in this region." But not being the cause doesn't mean it's not a factor.

I think why Loretta's aboriginal ancestry is a factor is because murderers often, consciously or unconsciously, pick their victims based on the reactions they want from society and there are assumptions about whether society will react by valuing that person. A serial killer interested in notoriety might pick blonde housewives because it will make the biggest media sensation. A man interested in a rape victim that he can dispose of might choose aboriginal women because their disappearance isn't likely to be reported and investigated swiftly, if at all.

In the same way that when someone irritates you, you make split second decisions and decide whether to fire back at them differently based on whether they're a McDonald's cashier or your boss - I think predators make decisions about who are ideal victims based on social power and perceived importance. VH and BL probably didn't say to themselves "let's kill an Indian" but they probably looked at her with her small-town, possibly reservation background, family living far away and who mostly look aboriginal and they likely thought, "who's going to miss her and report her? And if they do, who would listen? She doesn't matter."

Loretta didn't grow up immersed in an environment that is any different than any other Canadian:

"Annie Clair ... who lives in the Elsipogtog First Nation in New Brunswick, said Saunders ... wanted to talk to her about native traditions, the language and aboriginal women.

“She wanted to learn because she didn’t have that part of her growing up,” she said."

http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Loc...:-Police-find-Loretta-Saunders-body-in-N.B./1
 
I disagree. Women of all walks of life are stalked and murdered by evil men, [not all men, of course,] because they can overpower most of us rather easily.

Read statistics about the size of women chosen by serial killers--about 5'2" and around 100 lbs to 120 lbs are what they look for. Why? Because women of that size can be easily over powered.

A murder is a crime of violence. Loretta was an Aborignal woman murdered by in a violent manner.

Loretta's murder can and does fit both categories--violence against women; and violence against Aboriginal women.

Do you have a link for serial killers preferring short women?

Loretta Saunders was 5'5" and 120 lbs. 5'3" is the average height for females. (link) There is absolutely no correlation between Loretta's height and the probability that she will be a victim of violence.

We don't have any details about how Loretta was murdered, so we are unable to say whether she was drugged or attacked with a weapon. We only know that two suspects have been arrested for her murder.
 
That would suggest to me that Yalcin, Loretta's boyfriend and the father of her unborn child, was a devoted, hard working student giving his own all to completing his education.

He most likely does not have time to be clued into crime and did not realize the implications. Not everyone feels the need to run to law enforcement as quickly as most of us would.

With the hindsight he now has he will most likely regret his lack of prompt action every day for the rest of his life, because he lost not only Loretta but his own unborn child.

Thus he is a victim, and as we have been advised by the moderators--Yalcin is pretty much off the table for discussing.

I hope someday he comes to accept that Loretta was most likely deceased by the time he received the text from one of her accused murderers.

There was nothing he could have done to prevent the outcome.

Regarding the BBM - Scroll back through your comments to review where you have repeatedly said that Loretta handed over her keys to strangers and questioned her actions in this regard.

According to all main stream media arcticles, Loretta didn't had over her keys to anyone. Her accused murderers owed her rent--whether because she was subletting to them or whether because she had rented a bedroom in her apartment to them--we do not know for a certainty what the exact arrangement was.

But we know they owed her rent money, and they [allegedly] murdered her when she firmly tried to collect what was owed to her.

BBM

We don't know anything about Loretta's pregnancy. Per her family, the foreign student from Turkey is not her "partner".

We do know that the suspects and victim were roommates:

"Police have laid first-degree murder charges against the roommates of Loretta Saunders ... Yalcin Surkultay, who dated Saunders for 2½ years, told CBC News that when he last saw his girlfriend, she told him she was going to try to collect rent money from her roommates."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...ates-charged-with-1st-degree-murder-1.2554052
 
But how do you know that for sure?

From reading the news, looking for multiple sources, and learning that in reference to the foreign student from Turkey and the police, the suspects and victim were roommates. I've posted the links several times and don't understand how there can be any confusion ... especially if someone is reading news reports about the murder.
 
BBM
Today is International Women's Day, perhaps a good opportunity for women to unite and work towards the common goal of reducing violence against women. Fragmenting women and weighing which nationality of women are more often victimized, seems counter productive.

I think this whole debate is pretty off-topic, and sorting out the degree to which people here think it is fine or not fine for the family or others in the media to use this case to raise awareness about missing and murdered aboriginal women won't actually do much to sort out the case. The fact is that Loretta identified herself as aboriginal, she prioritised the work enough to write a paper on it and her family (the people who have the most at stake in how her name is used) supports using this case for that cause and their doing so doesn't impede LE's ability to solve and prosecute her case, so there really isn't anything to debate.

But I also want to respond to this accusation of dividing and fragmenting women because, as a white woman whose vulnerability would appear to get less attention if we promote the cause of missing and murdered aboriginal women, I 100% disagree. There is a ladder of targets - I'm lower on it than you, and therefore more likely to be victimised. Aboriginal women are lower on it than I am and even more likely to be victimised. The statistics bear it out (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2011001/article/11439-eng.htm) and your bringing up individual cases of non-aboriginal women who were targeted doesn't change that this is the reality that aboriginal women are living with.

I don't feel that efforts to end violence against women as a whole is in any way undermined by looking at facts about violence and seeking to understand why the facts might disproportionately target me but even more disproportionately target other women, nor do I feel I lose anything in supporting those women's voices when they want the media to hear and understand how large the threat of violence they live with is.

But seriously, I would really rather leave this debate to the family and politicians. This is how they're choosing to find meaning in their loss. I can't judge or begrudge them that.
 
RSBM: Respectfully snipped by me for space considerations

Welcome to WS....:welcome5:

Thank you for joining in the discussion.

My opinion is different (which is what makes this forum interesting).

I am of the opinion that the two grifters who were arrested and had Loretta's car, bank card and cell phone didn't put that much thought into who they were killing. That is really giving them way too much credit in my opinion.

Thank you...I agree. She could have been a one eyed orange fuzzy monster and they wouldn't have cared. I am of the belief that it was a crime of opportunity.
 
I think this whole debate is pretty off-topic, and sorting out the degree to which people here think it is fine or not fine for the family or others in the media to use this case to raise awareness about missing and murdered aboriginal women won't actually do much to sort out the case. The fact is that Loretta identified herself as aboriginal, she prioritised the work enough to write a paper on it and her family (the people who have the most at stake in how her name is used) supports using this case for that cause and their doing so doesn't impede LE's ability to solve and prosecute her case, so there really isn't anything to debate.

But I also want to respond to this accusation of dividing and fragmenting women because, as a white woman whose vulnerability would appear to get less attention if we promote the cause of missing and murdered aboriginal women, I 100% disagree. There is a ladder of targets - I'm lower on it than you, and therefore more likely to be victimised. Aboriginal women are lower on it than I am and even more likely to be victimised. The statistics bear it out (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2011001/article/11439-eng.htm) and your bringing up individual cases of non-aboriginal women who were targeted doesn't change that this is the reality that aboriginal women are living with.

I don't feel that efforts to end violence against women as a whole is in any way undermined by looking at facts about violence and seeking to understand why the facts might disproportionately target me but even more disproportionately target other women, nor do I feel I lose anything in supporting those women's voices when they want the media to hear and understand how large the threat of violence they live with is.

But seriously, I would really rather leave this debate to the family and politicians. This is how they're choosing to find meaning in their loss. I can't judge or begrudge them that.

Loretta's did not write an undergraduate thesis. She submitted a topic proposal on February 4 and was murdered 9 days later.

Criminal Stats in Canada including people from all walks of life: http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/subject-s...d=2696&lang=eng&type=STUDIES&pageNum=1&more=0
 
I didn't say anything about an undergraduate thesis. I said "she prioritised the work enough to write a paper on it". I meant paper in a generic sense and didn't even say that she had written the paper, just that she thought it was an important enough topic TO write about.
 
From reading the news, looking for multiple sources, and learning that in reference to the foreign student from Turkey and the police, the suspects and victim were roommates. I've posted the links several times and don't understand how there can be any confusion ... especially if someone is reading news reports about the murder.


All of these (and others) use the word sublet. Not roommate. I guess it depends whether they had taken over the apartment while she lived elsewhere. This is what we don't know for sure.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/...ppearance-of-loretta-saunders-returning-to-ns

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/02/28/case-of-two-accused-of-mu_n_4874046.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...l-draws-hundreds-to-parliament-hill-1.2561062

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/...-family-stays-strong-we-are-going-to-find-her
 
I also wrote an undergrad thesis--it was 15,000 words, and was probably the most stressful thing that I had ever done--more stressful than my MA theses--given that I had never undertaken a project on that scale.

An undergrad honour's thesis is typically 12,000-15,000 pages, which about 25-30 pages.
 
Re: roommates vs. subletting

I had wondered if there might have been a fuzzy agreement on the move-in like "I'll be moving to my boyfriend's apartment sometime in February but am too busy to pack up everything for a couple of weeks. If you can move in now and overlook my coming and going, I can give you a break on rent". Would explain why Yelcin saw it as subletting, but that she was present enough to explain

a) the police describing it as a roomate situation
b) VH complaining on facebook that she hated her roommate
c) Yelcin not being concerned if she was gone for a day or two
d) why she might be willing to let the rent slide for a little bit (if she felt they had done her a favour by allowing overlapped roommate time)
 

Early reports (Feb 20) were confusing, but by Feb 27, when charges were laid, there was no confusion. Police identified Loretta's roommates as suspects, and stated that she was murdered in the apartment she shared with the suspects.

Feb 27, 2014 7:03 PM
"Police have laid first-degree murder charges against the roommates of Loretta Saunders ...

Halifax Regional Police Supt. Jim Perrin confirmed that police suspect Saunders was killed Feb. 13 in an apartment located at 41 Cowie Hill Dr. That's the address of the unit where Leggette and Henneberry lived with Saunders. ...

Yalcin Surkultay, who dated Saunders for 2½ years, told CBC News that when he last saw his girlfriend, she told him she was going to try to collect rent money from her roommates."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...ates-charged-with-1st-degree-murder-1.2554052
 

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