Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[scrappinkat]

The point is let them finish the investigations first, gosh this cash is not closed, there is so much more they are compiling together There could also easily be an inquest upon the release of the Coroner's report. [sic] This is still an Open investigation with multifaceted unique circumstances. It sometimes feels that we as the public have become so addicted to "instant" instead of "patience". We want everything right here, right now as a society, and that isn't the way real life works.

I’m used to Canadian police and the privacy policies they abide by. It’s just the way it is, and I have no doubt we will learn at least some details, realistically I think it could well be a year or two before that happens.

I’ve found myself critical of how they do things at times, that’s based on knowing a few different people that have had missing people or one instance a murdered family member and seeing their grief almost compounded by frustrations of being kept in the dark about most everything regarding the investigations of their loved ones. Personally it’s hard to see someone go through that and remain content with how cases are handled, even when understanding the reasons why (as in they don’t want to jeopardize any trial that might happen etc). Feeling critical about situations at times doesn’t change my respect and appreciation for the challenges that RCMP face in any given day while they carry out their duties, especially knowing they have very specific rules and protocol they must follow that 99% of the public are not privy to.

I agree patience is utmost. IMO that patience should also include how we discuss cases and persons involved.

 

[otto]

Pretty sure irc, it was towed while it was connected to the murders. I will find the links sometime today.

Thanks, but don't bother. I'm sure that RCMP took all necessary precautions once they realized the suspects were in the area.

 

[Zella]

That’s a good point regarding the rural areas where they don’t have a police presence.

Alternatively here in the Yukon, we have communities that have maybe one or two RCMP and because the town is so small, everyone knows the RCMP and they know everyone. These relationships are usually really good, the police are really involved with the community(as are their families) and they know each other on a personal level. We had some crazy couple go on a robbery spree thru one town then there was a chase. They basically had a shootout with the RCMP and everyone was concerned when the officer got hit, he had been in the community for years. He was ok in the end. The outpouring of concern and support for him was massive in that tiny community.

BBM

That's sweet! I live in a rural part of the American South. Not rural by north Canadian standards, but definitely rural by American standards. In my experience, it means everyone knows everyone, including law enforcement, and that familiarity certainly can breed contempt but also is just as likely to lead to that lovely sense of community that you described.

 

[Snoop Sister]

Don't bother. I'm sure that RCMP took all necessary precautions once they realized the suspects were in the area.

I am sure they did as well.

 

[Zella]

In compliance with your statement about attitude shifts towards LE, I thought of a convo I had with a state trooper in northern rural Wisconsin where we lived until recently. This state trooper told me that posse comitatus is alive and well in small, isolated towns throughout the upper Midwest. NOT something that is widely discussed and also NOT something that is the case across the board.

It's alive and well down South, too! It has been a real cause for concern with suspects in my local jail, just last year. I think it is more common in rural areas in general.

 

[Snoop Sister]

Here it is...

Tourist couple found dead off B.C. highway were ‘happy’ and ‘confident,’ bystanders say

The tow truck driver who pulled the van from the crime scene to Fort Nelson nearly four hours away, told Global News Sunday he didn’t know he’d be handling evidence in a murder investigation until he arrived on scene.

“[The officers] didn’t let me touch anything, they wouldn’t let me go around to the back of the vehicle until I got it onto the truck to tie it on,” he said.

Once he got to the back of the van, Wright noticed the rear window was smashed, but couldn’t say whether it was shot out. He also couldn’t see anything inside the van.“

 

[Optics]

I did not ask for an instant answer now. Not sure where you got that from.

Of course there will be more info later but we Canadians are allowed to question processes along the way. If we couldn’t that would be ridiculous and change would never happen. The RCMP and governments in general are trying to be more transparent. Stifling or dissuading the public from asking questions goes directly against that.

Don't get so defensive, my comment isn't directly toward you specifically. I'm Canadian too, I've never said there isn't room for improvement - I also have a good number of relatives & very close friends who are and have been in LE - having also been directly involved in numerous high profile murder cases in Canada. For me personally - if I was in a dark alley with a cold blooded killer or a police officer - I would want the PO without question to protect me.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

I doubt it. If they were coded students (would not surprise me) with an individual learning program, the schools knew they had social, physical, or learning challenges. The most the school can do is discuss concerns with parents during regularly scheduled meetings related to coded student progress. Parents can do their best to connect with their children, but sometimes it just doesn't work.

I don’t doubt it. I’m willing to bet that there’s a report on this going all the way up to the B.C. Minister of Education, Rob Fleming. His Deputy Minister would have to be incompetent not to ask for one. There’s probably already an interim briefing note, to use the government parlance

 

[10ofRods]

Three cheers for some common sense.

I’m in New York, where I can’t turn on cable news at the moment without watching incredibly repetitive, nonstop coverage of murders that has no apparent purpose than filling up 24 hours every day to sell advertising.

At this point, I’ve turned it off, but apparently there’s a big audience for this, otherwise the cable networks wouldn’t be doing it. No doubt it makes amateur sleuths happy

That's interesting. We cut the cable, and there's no news about any Canadian murders. CBS has covered El Paso and Dayton, but not excessively. We stream Canadian news on CBC, nothing about these murders that I've seen (except brief word that bodies were found).

I will say that California is more like Canada in terms of only releasing certain information pre-trial. If there's not to be a trial, then media can file for access to many parts of the case. The case has to be closed. If charges were never filed, the police are in charge of closing the case. Court documents in general are available if the case is withdrawn (so, the charging documents would be available not long after the case was withdrawn). It would take a month or two for that to happen here.

So Californians get impatient (see the EARONS case as an example). Media are ever-present and neighbors share pictures of crime scenes which can't be prevented (and that happened, a little, in this case). But in general, we get no info until trial.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

The only times in this case that the RCMP were dealing for any length of time with a local community, apart from a couple of days at York Landing, were when they were working in Gillam and Port Alberni. I don’t understand where the debate about RCMP/local community relations comes from.

 

[JuneBug67]

Actually, I'm betting folks' views on this subject has more to do with the likes of this:

Second $100M settlement announced in RCMP sexual harassment case

And no, that is not a societal issue. That is a systemic issue within the RCMP that has festered for many years.

But that's all beside the point. The claim was made that the majority of Candians have "no issues." If you look over that survey, Canadians have all sorts of issues. I'm not sure if folks with issues make up the majority or not, but clearly many, many Canadians do have issues with the RCMP.

To further contextualize Canadian opinions on the RCMP it’s important to understand that news stories on the RCMP will comprise up to 100% of the knowledge many have - in fact an easy majority of the population. In ON and QC, which make up over 60% of the national population alone, the RCMP are the organized crime, terrorism and international smuggling people you never see. To a lesser degree that can extend to the population centres of all provinces, at least in the sense that their direct experiences will not be frequent or generally immersive.

As such, the quality and quantity of reporting, who consumes the news, and an individual willingness to form an opinion on limited, news-worthy information will impact the usefulness and reliability of national opinion surveys on the force.

 

[Zella]

The only times in this case that the RCMP were dealing for any length of time with a local community, apart from a couple of days at York Landing, were when they were working in Gillam and Port Alberni. I don’t understand where the debate about RCMP/local community relations comes from.

I think it is more connected to the larger debate about how RCMP is viewed by Canadians.

 

[otto]

I don’t doubt it. I’m willing to bet that there’s a report on this going all the way up to the B.C. Minister of Education, Rob Fleming. His Deputy Minister would have to be incompetent not to ask for one. There’s probably already an interim briefing note.

Maybe at an administrative level there will be discussions, and teachers might gossip, but policy change because two former students killed 3 people is unlikely. Teachers are responsible for education, parents are responsible for the rest. Teachers can alert parents to problematic behaviour in class, but it's up to the parents to address the problem.

There are rumours that Bryer made inappropriate remarks to others 6 or 7 years ago. Were those remarks made at school, or outside of school? If they were made at school, the school can make recommendations or at most expel the student, but without parental support, their hands are tied.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I doubt it. If they were coded students (would not surprise me) with an individual learning program, the schools knew they had social, physical, or learning challenges. The most the school can do is discuss concerns with parents during regularly scheduled meetings related to coded student progress. Parents can do their best to connect with their children, but sometimes it just doesn't work.

So far we haven't heard anything about either of them receiving any type of psychological treatment ever. Of course, it doesn't mean it never happened, maybe it was just never publicly discussed. But I wouldn't be surprised if they never did receive any treatment. Bryer's custodial guardian at the time seemed to be in the dark that he was making threats to kill people and himself, <modsnip> etc. It is obvious to me that, even if some interventions were made like with learning programs, a lot of people missed a lot of signs, and perhaps policies were not in place that allowed any signs to be followed up on. This was a systemic failure...of course while I hope this case will spur some changes, I doubt anything will change, because stuff like this has been happening for decades. JMO.

 

[Zella]

Maybe at an administrative level there will be discussions, and teachers might gossip, but policy change because two former students killed 3 people is unlikely. Teachers are responsible for education, parents are responsible for the rest. Teachers can alert parents to problematic behaviour in class, but it's up to the parents to address the problem.

There are rumours that Bryer made inappropriate remarks to others 6 or 7 years ago. Were those remarks made at school, or outside of school? If they were made at school, the school can make recommendations or at most expel the student, but without parental support, their hands are tied.

Former classmates of northern B.C. murder suspect say he would describe killing himself, others

They apparently happened at school when he was in Grade 7 at 13. It doesn't appear the girl was friends with him or interacted with him outside of a school setting. In fact, it just says they shared 1 class.

I assume it was not at the alternative high school since their website says they are Grade 9-12.

Edited to add: I assume this happened when he was living with his mom since grandma's house has been the past 2 years. His mother is reported to have been afraid of him. Maybe she was aware of these instances and it was one reason why or she was unaware and had her own personal experiences with him that led her to fear him.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

That's interesting. We cut the cable, and there's no news about any Canadian murders. CBS has covered El Paso and Dayton, but not excessively. We stream Canadian news on CBC, nothing about these murders that I've seen (except brief word that bodies were found).

I will say that California is more like Canada in terms of only releasing certain information pre-trial. If there's not to be a trial, then media can file for access to many parts of the case. The case has to be closed. If charges were never filed, the police are in charge of closing the case. Court documents in general are available if the case is withdrawn (so, the charging documents would be available not long after the case was withdrawn). It would take a month or two for that to happen here.

So Californians get impatient (see the EARONS case as an example). Media are ever-present and neighbors share pictures of crime scenes which can't be prevented (and that happened, a little, in this case). But in general, we get no info until trial.

In Canada, the charging document is available from the beginning, although it won’t tell you much. I would assume that the same is true in California, although maybe the Grand Jury system, which Canada and other Commonwealth countries don’t use, affects that.

In this case, there are also probably applications for search warrants. The affidavits in support will be available at some point, if they aren’t already.

The CBC National News at night has been covering this regularly.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Maybe at an administrative level there will be discussions, and teachers might gossip, but policy change because two former students killed 3 people is unlikely. Teachers are responsible for education, parents are responsible for the rest. Teachers can alert parents to problematic behaviour in class, but it's up to the parents to address the problem.

There are rumours that Bryer made inappropriate remarks to others 6 or 7 years ago. Were those remarks made at school, or outside of school? If they were made at school, the school can make recommendations or at most expel the student, but without parental support, their hands are tied.

Yeah therein lies the problem. If parents have issues themselves and are unable to provide that support, then what happens? It should be the responsibility of our entire society to keep an eye out for this stuff and work together to solve it. Not just "it's your kid so you deal with it." Now, what that would look like in practice, well that's an extensive discussion that would require a lot of research.

EDIT: Also forgot to add that parents also don't always have the whole perspective. For example Bryer's grandma and great-uncle, according to what they said, had no problems with him. Kam's parents also said they had no problems with him. A lot of times people act way differently around their parents/guardians than with their peers or other people. And also, remember that they were legal adults for a year or more before this happened, so their parents weren't even legally responsible at that time. What happens then when someone has these problems...whose job is it to identify it and come up with a solution? Right now it's pretty much nobody's job, and that's a problem.

EDIT AGAIN: In fact in general in these situations, people seem more concerned about passing the buck and saying "well, it wasn't my responsibility to deal with this" than actually preventing it from happening next time....

 

[scrappinkat]

Bryer was never photographed as a graduate for this year or listed as an unphotographed graduate, though some sources reported he graduated and others say he didn't.

The cost of being involved in any grad activities is crazy, including photos. When I graduated I remember avoiding all things grad mostly because of having no money. That being said I don’t really understand the fixation on his grad status. There is no known marker or studies that tie graduating or not graduating to a proclivity to murder. Or if there is feel free to send me links!!

 

[Deleted member 248860]

Maybe at an administrative level there will be discussions, and teachers might gossip, but policy change because two former students killed 3 people is unlikely. Teachers are responsible for education, parents are responsible for the rest. Teachers can alert parents to problematic behaviour in class, but it's up to the parents to address the problem.

There are rumours that Bryer made inappropriate remarks to others 6 or 7 years ago. Were those remarks made at school, or outside of school? If they were made at school, the school can make recommendations or at most expel the student, but without parental support, their hands are tied.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree about this. The B.C. Minister of Education is going to want to know what happened within the school system. I would be very surprised if that is not already under way. If there are changes, it won’t be because these two killed three people. There will be changes if the review shows problems that are preventable or that can be better managed.

I also suspect that what the B.C. school system learns, if anything new, will be shared with other provinces.

 

[Zella]

The cost of being involved in any grad activities is crazy, including photos. When I graduated I remember avoiding all things grad mostly because of having no money. That being said I don’t really understand the fixation on his grad status. There is no known marker or studies that tie graduating or not graduating to a proclivity to murder. Or if there is feel free to send me links!!

Right, but others appear listed as unphotographed, and he doesn't, so it doesn't seem like solely a cost thing.

As for whether or not he graduated, it has nothing to do with him being a murderer, but it does seem to suggest he could have lied to his closest relatives about whether or not he graduated, which, if true, does tell us something about his personality, don't you think?

So, the issue isn't really if he graduated. It's the contradictory information surrounding whether or not he did.