Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #14

[SteveP]

Do Walmart’s in Canada have a fun department? I thought that was only in the US.

No, it is impossible to have fun in a Walmart. Sorry, couldnt resist! I know you meant Gun department .

ETA...*department (always double check your post when you are pointing out someone else's typo)

 

[Errrr]

Why would they go so far into the wilderness if they wanted a shootout? The Globe and Mail reporters said the searchers were not visible after walking a few meters in...walking 8km in would be overkill....

Keep expecting the police to swoop in at any moment?

 

[scrappinkat]

Do Walmart’s in Canada have a fun department? I thought that was only in the US.

Anmo only as far as I’m aware of in BC Walmart’s.

 

[Zella]

Indeed olive! It would be interesting to know what items they purchased while Walmart employees (I'm guessing there is an employee discount?). Maybe they purchased things to trade for guns/ammo, on the street?

Early on when they went from missing, to suspects, Port Alberni MSM had interviews and quotes from people in the community. Walmart had told their employees to not talk to media at that time. I wonder why Walmart did that.

One WM employee did talk before the ban. Wonder if she got in trouble. She was the one who said Kam was nice enough but seemed weirdly close to Bryer and uncomfortable when people who weren't Bryer got close to him (I assume she meant physically in his personal space but am not sure.)
Searching for answers: Sense of unease lingers in B.C.’s isolated north as police hunt suspects in remote killings

I'm not really surprised that Wal-Mart and the mayor asked people to stop talking. I think there was an embarrassment factor there. They also might have been overwhelmed by the number of journalists who descended on the town.

 

[otto]

I cannot speak for hunters in Canada, but I have been around hunters my entire life, and while there is a bow season and a gun season for deer where I live, I know many hunters that use both weapons, but more use guns than bows.

I don't know enough about it, but I do know people who lead hunting tours in Northern Canada, and they use a crossbow. It's clean.

Only point is that although there are hunters in Canada, not all of them use guns. Guns are not so common that professors, accountants, educators, lawyers, engineers and so on carry a gun to do research.

 

[MistyWaters]

The topic of previous discussions, criminal charges cannot proceed —

“The B.C. Prosecution Service said criminal charges don’t move forward once an accused is proven dead.

“We anticipate that the charge will be abated once the (prosecution service) receives official confirmation that the accused is deceased. That will conclude the prosecution,” spokesman Dan McLaughlin said in an email.

The autopsy results put a cap on the manhunt, which began July 23 when police announced Schmegelsky and McLeod were suspects in the three killings...”
Northern B.C. triple murder suspects died by apparent suicides: RCMP

 

[Kubirai]

I’m not sure how to ask this.. Can the RCMP be in trouble for potentially ‘cornering’ the suspects to lead them to suicide?

Absolutely NOT. The fugitives chose this path, despite earlier opportunities to give themselves up.

 

[LoisLane]

Interesting, but Canada is not a third world country.

Canadian professors do not carry weapons unless they intend to shoot their colleagues over tenure - and that has happened.

No it isn’t but theses teachers work in Canada. They are suggesting this is happening in the US and may escalate.. similar to a third world country.

Not saying they carry weapons but they may feel safer at home with one nearby.

 

[mtnstream]

Do Walmart’s in Canada have a gun department? I thought that was only in the US.

ETA.. gun department

That's what I'm wondering. I'm not thinking they purchased guns/ammo at the Walmart they worked at - but they could have bought items, with their discount, for someone else, as a sort of trade for guns/ammo. Just a supposition on my part.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I really agree with the last bit:


Gregg McCrary, a former FBI agent and criminal profiler, previously told CTV News Channel that he doesn’t think the deaths were accidental.

“What we find with these individuals is there’s not only the loathing of others that led to the homicide, but self-loathing and that’s sort of a combination of rage and shame and perhaps guilt on their part combined with a hopelessness of the situation that tends to result in suicide,” he said.

The other possibility, according to McCrary, is the men didn’t feel any guilt or remorse and they died by suicide as an effort to “not subjugate themselves to the rule of law” or as an “last act of defiance.”

B.C. manhunt over: What we know and might never know about the case

 

[FactFinder3000]

Absolutely NOT. The fugitives chose this path, despite earlier opportunities to give themselves up.

Yeah, but if the RCMP had done food drops they might have been captured alive.

 

[Gina20]

Hmmm, I always thought the shift in terminology was to be more specific, to indicate death, kinda like concussions are referred to as brain injuries. And I think I thought that because I thought suicides are a crime in Canada. Ya, they are, right?

No, suicide is not a crime in Canada. It hasn't been for nearly 50 years. Terminology is slowly changing to reflect that.

Part of this is likely due to the change in legislation to allow medical assistance in dying. The old terms hung around for a long time, but those who choose medically-assisted death are not "committing" a crime, nor are those who take their own lives. Change takes a long time.

 

[olivebpa1]

I really agree with the last bit:


Gregg McCrary, a former FBI agent and criminal profiler, previously told CTV News Channel that he doesn’t think the deaths were accidental.

“What we find with these individuals is there’s not only the loathing of others that led to the homicide, but self-loathing and that’s sort of a combination of rage and shame and perhaps guilt on their part combined with a hopelessness of the situation that tends to result in suicide,” he said.

The other possibility, according to McCrary, is the men didn’t feel any guilt or remorse and they died by suicide as an effort to “not subjugate themselves to the rule of law” or as an “last act of defiance.”

B.C. manhunt over: What we know and might never know about the case

Me too. I think they didn’t want to go to prison. When they realized the RCMP were closing in on them they ended it.

 

[sandbar]

Do Walmart’s in Canada have a gun department? I thought that was only in the US.

ETA.. gun department

No.

ETA fat thumbs.

There are SO many similarities between Canada and US, but guns laws (and liquor laws) are completely different.

 

[Cherchri]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if that one critical piece of evidence LE discovered proved to be a suicide note. One that gave everyone insights into what motivated these young men to kill.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Early on when they went from missing, to suspects, Port Alberni MSM had interviews and quotes from people in the community. Walmart had told their employees to not talk to media at that time. I wonder why Walmart did that.

Because it's Walmart. Walmart wants no bad press and to keep their operations highly regimented. Murder duo gossip cannot possibly benefit Walmart. And that's all they care about.

SBM

The more I have read up on the case, the more I suspect these two might be a bit of an oddity as far as murder duos go. I like your descriptor of them as a team. I think that makes sense and might be the best way to characterize it.

I really did have them pegged as a pretty textbook example of dyad killers from the beginning, but I think the fact they were childhood BFFs makes a difference, and so now I question that they are quite so textbook. None of the other murder duos I am aware of featured people with this long of a friendship or even this genuine-seeming of a bond.

A lot of the ones I know about had a friendship spanning a few years, sometimes only a couple of years, and the leader often was sort of vaguely repulsed by the follower and his or her neediness and tended to gladly distance themselves when they got a chance, but I don't see that here. If anything, they seem very emotionally co-dependent on each other and, I think, genuinely fond of each other.

I still think Kam had more leader-like qualities than Bryer in that he seemed a touch calmer and more confident and more outgoing and I do think he was taking more of a lead on the run while Bryer seemed to be more nervous and paranoid to observers, but I think they were a very united front and probably knew each other so well that they kind of instinctively picked up on what the other one was thinking and doing and needed, and I am sure they had plenty of practice doing that with each other from all the time they spent together gaming and camping. I also wonder if their dynamic was fairly fluid. I have that with some of my friends--not that we kill people or even do anything criminal--but we kind of rotate on who is taking the initiative, depending on the situation at hand.

In any event, it makes me wonder if a murder dyad sibling pair, if they exist, would be more comparable than just murder duos in general for these two.

All MOO

Totally agree with all of this. That's what makes this thing so weird and fascinating. In most murder dyad cases (even siblings), they throw each other under the bus as soon as things go awry. Plus the basis of their relationship tends to be crime/murder and they may not even like each other as people separate from that. I don't get the sense either of those were the case between them. From all the evidence I think they genuinely cared about each other.

What's interesting is you say "the leader often was sort of vaguely repulsed by the follower and his or her neediness and tended to gladly distance themselves when they got a chance." Many people who knew Kam made comments to the effect that they were surprised that Kam DIDN'T ever seem repulsed by or distance himself from Bryer. Not only did he not do that, but he actively hung out with Bryer in the midst of total sketch behavior (Nazi Ritalin party) even if it made him look bad in front of other people. And not only THAT, but Kam, according to one coworker, seemed totally nervous and uncomfortable talking to anyone EXCEPT Bryer. "Emotionally co-dependent" is a great way of putting it.

I agree they could have alternated who was the leader and follower. For example, maybe Kam was the leader during the car trip because he drove and was better at social interaction, while Bryer was the leader in the woods because he was more into the survivalist stuff.

 

[Link Haze]

Me too. I think they didn’t want to go to prison. When they realized the RCMP were closing in on them they ended it.

I think suicide was in the plan right from the beginning.

 

[sprucetip]

I lost all my multi-quotes when the thread was closed....

Anyway if they were alive for a few days in the bush, to me that indicates this wasn't planned as a suicide mission. Otherwise they probably would have killed themselves sooner rather than endure those conditions. Their behavior indicates to me that they were trying to get away, until they realized it was futile. Also, they wouldn't have been so panicked about being caught during their cross-country drive if this was a suicide mission. Now, as I said before, I think the concept of suicide was one they were very familiar with for years leading up to this...but I think they at least had a part of them that wanted to remain alive. I think they were also huge cowards overall (don't do the crime if you can't do the time) and maybe it took them a few days because they were too afraid to kill themselves (ironic!)

The police may have used insect activity on the remains (lifecycle of eggs laid, etc.) to determine length of time they had been deceased.

I'm still not sure it was planned as a spree killing either. It's possible. But if it was, why didn't they wait for the police to show up and try to take some of them out before being taken out? And why no additional victims after the 18th? Unless they ended up regretting what they did.

It's possible the guns came from Kam's family. I still don't think it was necessarily weird to bring a gun up north because of bears and so on. But, as far as we know, they had no gun licenses. And having two guns is a greater indicator that something nefarious was planned the whole time. Whether that was killing, robbery, or whatever. I still think there's a chance it started out as robbery because Lucas' father (a top police officer) said at first he thought it was a robbery gone wrong.

Even if both of them had guns, one of them could have still gone to the police and pinned the blame on the other, claiming some kind of "forced into doing it" thing, or tried to testify in exchange for a deal. It's worked before (Karla Homolka). Plus they were pretty dumb so who knows if they even knew that much about ballistics and all that. It's actually very common in dyad killings for the two to turn on each other and blame each other. The fact that they didn't, and yet there's still evidence to indicate this wasn't a suicide mission the whole time, indicates to me that they were so close, that was never an option for them.

As I said before, these guys were really sloppy with everything, so if it was planned I expect evidence of planning will come up (JMO). Even if they planned a killing spree this whole time, I still think it was preventable for the reasons which I have stated many times.

I also morbidly wonder what their conversations were like during their long drive across the continent, and in the woods. Like...what do you talk about after killing three people with your BFF and heading off to near-certain death? I feel like it would be...kind of awkward??...but who knows, I'm not a psycho killer. Also, did they listen to any music in the car, and if so, which music? Am I a total weirdo for wondering about stuff like this?

Also comment I read elsewhere, along the lines of morbid speculation:


I guess this all just rephrases the overall question of what the hell were they thinking....

I also am very interested in the toxicology results.

Also I know someone posted this article: Why Spree Killers Kill Themselves and this article has some really interesting stuff. This also fits with my "us against the world" theory of their mindset from a couple of days ago, and Bryer's "militia" being a metaphorical representation of his feelings of alienation from society and lack of control over his life.

Fantastic post. I still think it can be a suicide mission especially if they were into the survival thing, they were going to see how long they could last and stay ahead of the police maybe.

I thought they slogged the last km deep into the bush so they wouldn’t be found, or found easily. But their stuff was on the shore nearby and led to them a that’s kinda out the window.

I don’t recall Lucas’ father saying that about a robbery, interesting.

If you are a weirdo for wondering about their conversations, I am too! And on those last days while on the run. Where to go, when to end it all, final words, etc!

 

[NJSleuth91]

Gregg McCrary, a former FBI agent and criminal profiler, previously told CTV News Channel that he doesn’t think the deaths were accidental.

“What we find with these individuals is there’s not only the loathing of others that led to the homicide, but self-loathing and that’s sort of a combination of rage and shame and perhaps guilt on their part combined with a hopelessness of the situation that tends to result in suicide,” he said.

The other possibility, according to McCrary, is the men didn’t feel any guilt or remorse and they died by suicide as an effort to “not subjugate themselves to the rule of law” or as an “last act of defiance.”

A little from Column A, a little from Column B. JMO.

 

[Gina20]

No, it is impossible to have fun in a Walmart. Sorry, couldnt resist! I know you meant Gun derpartment.

Fair enough. At least they have a derp-artment. So that's something.