Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #14

[SteveP]

Fair enough. At least they have a derp-artment. So that's something.

OOPs...lol

 

[Kubirai]

I wanted to provide some numbers for .22 bullets vs 9mm, which can definitely kill. Modern .22 bullets have 150 to 300 joules depending on powder grains inside. Modern 9mm bullets are above 500 joules, considered to be lethal at close range.

 

[LoisLane]

Absolutely NOT. The fugitives chose this path, despite earlier opportunities to give themselves up.

I’m just curious if there is a protocol for the air and ground search. Like if searchers used a loudspeaker to attempt communication. The goal in a standoff or when someone is barricaded is to bring them out alive so how is that done? I get this was a much larger area and all that but it was contained somewhat. Just curious, not trying to stir it up.

 

[ktm44]

Well then in that case you are making the assumption they were hand guns, which, while not impossible, would be much less likely taken from the KM family gun rack. More than likely the KM family had long guns, though that's really only speculation. I'm only suggesting that the odds would be in that favour.

Other members may not realize that hundguns fall under restricted firearms and require more than a simple PAL to aquire. Most people are also not aware that when restricted firearms are sold into Canada, a single round is fired (as proven by the target pack with the firearm) and that round is on record so ballistics can be traced to the gun fairly quickly.

Restricted firearms regulations are stringent and can't be given, sold or traded without the next person also having a restricted firearms permit. In the case of restricted firearms, one still needs a PAL to get their restricted permit and to purchase ammo.

 

[otto]

Yeah, but if the RCMP had done food drops they might have been captured alive.

All these years here and never have I heard of FBI making a food drop for wanted murderers.

 

[Zella]

Because it's Walmart. Walmart wants no bad press and to keep their operations highly regimented. Murder duo gossip cannot possibly benefit Walmart. And that's all they care about.



Totally agree with all of this. That's what makes this thing so weird and fascinating. In most murder dyad cases (even siblings), they throw each other under the bus as soon as things go awry. Plus the basis of their relationship tends to be crime/murder and they may not even like each other as people separate from that. I don't get the sense either of those were the case between them. From all the evidence I think they genuinely cared about each other.

What's interesting is you say "the leader often was sort of vaguely repulsed by the follower and his or her neediness and tended to gladly distance themselves when they got a chance." Many people who knew Kam made comments to the effect that they were surprised that Kam DIDN'T ever seem repulsed by or distance himself from Bryer. Not only did he not do that, but he actively hung out with Bryer in the midst of total sketch behavior (Nazi Ritalin party) even if it made him look bad in front of other people. And not only THAT, but Kam, according to one coworker, seemed totally nervous and uncomfortable talking to anyone EXCEPT Bryer. "Emotionally co-dependent" is a great way of putting it.

I agree they could have alternated who was the leader and follower. For example, maybe Kam was the leader during the car trip because he drove and was better at social interaction, while Bryer was the leader in the woods because he was more into the survivalist stuff.

Yes, it's the fact that ostensibly Kam didn't need Bryer--he could drive, he had a vehicle, he was more normal-acting apparently on the surface--but they still clung together like glue that made me start re-evaluating their dynamic.

One of the murder duo cases that really interests me is the Parker-Hulme case. 2 teen girls in 1950s New Zealand killed one of their mothers (the basis for the film Heavenly Creatures). The leader in that one (Hulme) is the crime novelist Anne Perry, and I was always struck by how very cold she was about Parker, given how very close they had ostensibly been. It was like once the jig was up, she had no interest in that association ever again. Parker, meanwhile, apparently was still haunted by the fall-out of their friendship, even decades later.

The In Cold Blood duo also features that. Once they were caught, the leader (Dick) was pretty over the follower (Perry). In fact, he was over Perry before they were caught. LOL And even though Perry was exasperated with him (also even before getting apprehended), he still seemed to demonstrate some lingering loyalty that wasn't really reciprocated.

 

[Zella]

@otto, if I'm not mistaken, we were told early on we cannot speculate about their orientation.

 

[Gina20]

OOPs...lol

It makes me want to go there and find it, probably near the phthalate department.

 

[scrappinkat]

Only point is that although there are hunters in Canada, not all of them use guns. Guns are not so common that professors, accountants, educators, lawyers, engineers and so on carry a gun to do research.

Im not sure where you learned your stats for hunters and methods used for hunting, but you’re misinformed. The vast majority of hunters use rifles to take down their kill.

There is about 2.2 million legal PAL holders in Canada, so I’m going to assume that more than a few professors, accountants, lawyers, etc could be within the ranks of owners too.

There is no law against carrying a rifle while out in the bush, although some BC Parks forbid it.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Keep expecting the police to swoop in at any moment?

I don't know, I just don't see it...if shootout was the goal, with their "survivalist militia" stuff, you'd think they would take some kind of defensive position and lie in wait for the police, not keep trying to get as far away from the police as possible.

Fantastic post. I still think it can be a suicide mission especially if they were into the survival thing, they were going to see how long they could last and stay ahead of the police maybe.

It's possible.

I don’t recall Lucas’ father saying that about a robbery, interesting.

Yeah someone on here told me about that, but I'm not sure of the source.

If you are a weirdo for wondering about their conversations, I am too! And on those last days while on the run. Where to go, when to end it all, final words, etc!

Yeah but like...there can only be so much to discuss about where to go and all that, and they were on this murder thing for like over a week. Did they have normal conversations on the way there too? Like small talk about random topics? They probably did, right? And it would be bizarre if they did, but also bizarre if they didn't and were just in silence or talking about murdery stuff the whole time, right? Clearly I have thought way too much about this.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I threw out the idea a couple of days ago, more of a question, was Kam gay? Just curious.

We're not allowed to discuss their possible sexual preferences.

 

[Rottiluvr]

Indeed olive! It would be interesting to know what items they purchased while Walmart employees (I'm guessing there is an employee discount?). Maybe they purchased things to trade for guns/ammo, on the street?

Early on when they went from missing, to suspects, Port Alberni MSM had interviews and quotes from people in the community. Walmart had told their employees to not talk to media at that time. I wonder why Walmart did that.

I could be wrong but I think the guns belonged to K’s family. Remember when AS said “I don’t want to offend K’s family but my son didn’t know how to drive, my son didn’t have guns...” I’m betting that B, at some point mentioned to AS that K’s family had guns. JMO

 

[Kubirai]

I’m just curious if there is a protocol for the air and ground search. Like if searchers used a loudspeaker to attempt communication. The goal in a standoff or when someone is barricaded is to bring them out alive so how is that done? I get this was a much larger area and all that but it was contained somewhat. Just curious, not trying to stir it up.

If LE know someone is holed up in a small area, they use megaphones to ask them to surrender.

In wide area searches, there is no such protocol. Obviously they won't go around strafing the forest or dropping tear gas.

 

[scrappinkat]

No, suicide is not a crime in Canada. It hasn't been for nearly 50 years. Terminology is slowly changing to reflect that.

Part of this is likely due to the change in legislation to allow medical assistance in dying. The old terms hung around for a long time, but those who choose medically-assisted death are not "committing" a crime, nor are those who take their own lives. Change takes a long time.

I thought the act of suicide was a crime in Canada too, just not one that often sees a person charged.

Assisted suicide did get approved a while ago and the numbers of people choosing that route are surprisingly high.

 

[otto]

The topic of previous discussions, criminal charges cannot proceed —

“The B.C. Prosecution Service said criminal charges don’t move forward once an accused is proven dead.

“We anticipate that the charge will be abated once the (prosecution service) receives official confirmation that the accused is deceased. That will conclude the prosecution,” spokesman Dan McLaughlin said in an email.

The autopsy results put a cap on the manhunt, which began July 23 when police announced Schmegelsky and McLeod were suspects in the three killings...”
Northern B.C. triple murder suspects died by apparent suicides: RCMP

Dead guilty people are deemed innocent until proven guilty, dead people cannot be proven guilty.

 

[SteveP]

All these years here and never have I heard of FBI making a food drop for wanted murderers.

As if getting mauled by bears wasn't enough of a threat already, let's drop food where we think the suspects are hiding. There's a great humanitarian idea!

 

[Zella]

Yeah but like...there can only be so much to discuss about where to go and all that, and they were on this murder thing for like over a week. Did they have normal conversations on the way there too? Like small talk about random topics? They probably did, right? And it would be bizarre if they did, but also bizarre if they didn't and were just in silence or talking about murdery stuff the whole time, right? Clearly I have thought way too much about this.

SBM

I've wondered about their conversations, too.

I'm envisioning a weird stew of random small talk, inside jokes, practical logistical discussions, panicky freak-outs, and creepy murdery stuff, as well as random silences since they both apparently were a bit quiet. (I'm an introvert and like that my fellow introverted friends don't talk constantly and we can sit in silence and not be awkward. Based on what I've heard of these two, I could see that being true, too.)

MOO

 

[Rottiluvr]

We're not allowed to discuss their possible sexual preferences.

I hope I won’t get in trouble for saying this - there was a pic with AS and B when he was younger and I had to look twice because I thought B looked an awful lot like a little girl.

 

[NJSleuth91]

All these years here and never have I heard of FBI making a food drop for wanted murderers.

I just laughed for like a minute straight at this. I don't think that's where my UNICEF donation was supposed to go!

 

[mtnstream]

Other members may not realize that hundguns fall under restricted firearms and require more than a simple PAL to aquire. Most people are also not aware that when restricted firearms are sold into Canada, a single round is fired (as proven by the target pack with the firearm) and that round is on record so ballistics can be traced to the gun fairly quickly.

Restricted firearms regulations are stringent and can't be given, sold or traded without the next person also having a restricted firearms permit. In the case of restricted firearms, one still needs a PAL to get their restricted permit and to purchase ammo.

Isn't it still possible to get any type of gun on the street (black market) in Canada? I ask because a long arm type weapon is more challenging to commit suicide with? It's possible that they shot each other at the same time. I don't know if that's a logical thing for them to have done, but anything is possible.