Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

[Esprite]

That fits with the motive having to do with feelings of rage and powerlessness towards the world....I also wonder if there's any symbolic significance to it in terms of "militia" stuff (anyone know?)

Yes, it's very confusing even to Canadians.

Ted Bundy would have been charged with first degree murder for many of his killings


I see. So what you're saying is Ted Bundy would have only been charged with second-degree murder, had he committed his crimes in Canada, because he chose his victims opportunistically.

That is still very confusing to me, and I think caused a good deal of the confusion in this case, but whatever.

That fits with the motive having to do with feelings of rage and powerlessness towards the world....I also wonder if there's any symbolic significance to it in terms of "militia" stuff (anyone know?)



I see. So what you're saying is Ted Bundy would have only been charged with second-degree murder, had he committed his crimes in Canada, because he chose his victims opportunistically.

That is still very confusing to me, and I think caused a good deal of the confusion in this case, but whatever.

I agree that it is confusing, even to many Canadians.

Ted Bundy may have been charged with first degree murder in Canada for many of his killings, as there are exceptions to the basic distinction.

Criminal Code

 

[Trooper]

Yes, and further and better particulars came to light on the 21st and 24th. As I've said a million times.

and when further and better particulars came to light, it was then necessary to up the Nation wide manhunt and call in the military. It was not necessary , for the purposes of law enforcement to up grade the murder charge, something that seems to be somewhat of a peculiar obsession, from certain quarters, where by it's recycled time and time again, it doesn't have any credence. It isn't important. 2nd degree murder attracts a life sentence, it can be upgraded, when a discussion takes place with the perpertrators. It would have been the RCMP goal to speak with K and B, of course, that would have been ideal, but in the meantime, a 2nd degree murder charge ACHIEVED what the RCMP wanted.


As has been said a million times, on every thread of this particular event.

 

[SiciC]

“After eluding police for more than two weeks, triple homicide suspects Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky had reached rural northern Manitoba with a fantastical, movie-like idea of escape: hijack a boat and then make their way to Europe or Africa.

But they would not get far in pursuing that far-fetched idea: they hit a dead end when they reached the large, fast-flowing Nelson River and they were at the bottom of a steep embankment that was impossible to climb back up...”

Thanks for this. I was watching the live PC but I was a little side-tracked and missed a few parts. Must've missed that part.

I think them being "trapped" there makes sense. It's a fairly open area, couldn't hide anymore and probably getting more desperate by the moment. I think they would have tried to kill more people before their own demise - like they said they would - if they hadn't reached some sort of obstacle, whether that being heavy police presence, they had gotten lost, they had gotten exhausted.. or they had gotten stuck somewhere.

 

[FactFinder3000]

Whatever happened to Otto, so he can explain to us how this was all Lucas's fault for having an unreliable van?

Where is Otto, to continue to tell us that all delays were due to Lucas not having the vehicle properly registered?

OTTO!!! WHERE ARE YOU!!! PLEASE BACK UP YOUR UNENDING STATEMENTS ABOUT HOW THE DELAYS WERE LUCAS'S FAULT FOR NOT REGISTERING HIS VEHICLE!!!

Yeah, I don't think we'll be hearing from Otto.

 

[MistyWaters]

So you want to test whether they were rehabilitated by releasing them and seeing what they do?

Not to get all philosophical, but I think ultimately, you are what you do. That's why I never subscribed to the belief that these two were "born evil" or "destined to kill from birth," or that this couldn't have been prevented, because their actions weren't always evil. Being a psychopath or sociopath doesn't mean you're evil if your behavior is pro-social or at least morally neutral. Having violent fantasies but never acting on them doesn't mean you're evil. Doing the right things for the wrong reasons (ie. being pro-social because it gets you the results that you want) doesn't mean you're evil. Basically, unless they committed other crimes or violence we don't know about (which I doubt), they weren't evil until July 2019, regardless of how they felt or what they talked about amongst themselves.

So basically if someone commits murder, and then goes to prison and is a model prisoner, they'll always be evil to some extent because of what they did. But also it is possible that they were actually rehabilitated in prison to be pro-social, because that's what their actions suggest, which makes them less evil than if they had just continued hurting people and causing mayhem. However, even if they actually were rehabilitated, that doesn't mean we should ever risk the public's safety by testing it out -- they could "relapse," especially if exposed to similar stressors that caused them to go off the rails in the first place.

I also think that 25 years from now, we'll have a lot more effective interventions for psychopathic and sociopathic tendencies than we do now. There's a lot of promising research on that topic.

The fact that Canada’s Correctional System is built upon rehabilitation is taking this thread O/T but if you’re interesting in learning about it, here’s a link to various resource material:

“The Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) has a legal mandate to provide programs and services that address offenders’ criminal behaviour.”
Offender Rehabilitation

 

[Vern]

Yes indeed it’s very different between the two countries and thank goodness Bundy didn’t commit murders in Canada. In 1989 the maximum jail term he’d face here would’ve been 25 years considering all sentencing ran concurrently at that time. He’d have been released from prison by now.

Absolutely disagree. Bundy would have been declared a Dangerous Offender and never would have seen freedom again.

Much like Clifford Olson (38/40 on the psychopath scale) who was convicted of his serial killings in January 1982. The Dangerous Offender laws were applicable retroactively and effectively stripped serial killers in Canada of their right to exercise their "Faint Hope Clause" of a right to a parole hearing. Dangerous Offender status is not just for those convicted of murders either, it can apply to anyone whom The Crown successfully argues is a threat to Canadian society. Effectively, once designated as a Dangerous Offender here in Canada, ones release date (or any parole date) no longer applies and they are effectively held on "indeterminate" sentences of life.

No doubt Bundy would have been designated as such just as Legere, Bernardo, Pickton and Olson were (all retroactively with Olson being convicted before Bundy was). Canada brought it in to keep Olson behind bars forever and they'd have done the same for Bundy. Had these two made it out alive, I'm inclined to think the same DO status would have awaited them.

 

[SovereignSnake]

So Kam took the SIM card out his phone when they were at the Scene just South of Dease Lake. Still I wonder where they actually tossed his phones completely? Here's a question; was anything recorded on their phones? I feel like it's possible. I keep thinking of this anonymous witness who came forward on July 22nd and couldn't help but wonder if Bryer sent one of his friends a Snapchat of the Lucas and Chynna crime scene? Even if they both removed their SIM cards they could still connect to WiFi. But could still be tracked via GPS Satellites. Clearly Kam no longer wanted anyone contacting him anymore by the afternoon of the 18th. However, the RCMP would not have had their phone numbers until the night of the 19th. Curious how long this anonymous person waited before contacting the RCMP after what they learned. Perhaps Kam and Bryer even burned their phones with the Dodge and Camper. Or even threw them off the Stikine River Bridge that night? I'm guessing they were only at the Dease Lake site (Scene 6) for a few hours, probably slept and then left later that night and found Leonard. Still, only a SIM was left behind initially? No actual phones were recovered anywhere? They must have changed their minds and decided to ditch their phones completely after that whole scene with Leonard unfolded.

 

[JuneBug67]

Absolutely disagree. Bundy would have been declared a Dangerous Offender and never would have seen freedom again.

Much like Clifford Olson (38/40 on the psychopath scale) who was convicted of his serial killings in January 1982. The Dangerous Offender law were applicable retroactively and effectively stripped serial killers and in Canada of their right to exercise their "Faint Hope Clause" of a right to a parole hearing. The Dangerous Offender status is not just for those convicted of murders either, it can apply to anyone whom The Crown successfully argues is a threat to Canadian society. Effectively, once designated as a Dangerous Offender here in Canada, ones release date (or any parole date) no longer applies and they are effectively held on "indeterminate" sentences of life.

No doubt Bundy would have been designated as such just as Legere, Bernardo, Pickton and Olson were (all retroactively with Olson being convicted before Bundy was). Canada brought it in to keep Olson behind bars forever and they'd have done the same for Bundy. Had these two made it out alive, I'm inclined to think the same DO status would have awaited them.

Dangerous Offender status doesn’t even apply to first or second degree murder. It’s for crimes that may not necessarily carry a life sentence. Bernardo, for example, got DO status in lieu of prosecuting him for his crimes as the Scarborough rapist.

 

[Vern]

Dangerous Offender status doesn’t even apply to first or second degree murder. It’s for crimes that may not necessarily carry a life sentence. Bernardo, for example, got DO status in lieu of prosecuting him for his crimes as the Scarborough rapist.

As I noted in my post, it doesn't apply to just murders or those without parole dates.

 

[Trooper]

Absolutely disagree. Bundy would have been declared a Dangerous Offender and never would have seen freedom again.

Much like Clifford Olson (38/40 on the psychopath scale) who was convicted of his serial killings in January 1982. The Dangerous Offender laws were applicable retroactively and effectively stripped serial killers in Canada of their right to exercise their "Faint Hope Clause" of a right to a parole hearing. Dangerous Offender status is not just for those convicted of murders either, it can apply to anyone whom The Crown successfully argues is a threat to Canadian society. Effectively, once designated as a Dangerous Offender here in Canada, ones release date (or any parole date) no longer applies and they are effectively held on "indeterminate" sentences of life.

No doubt Bundy would have been designated as such just as Legere, Bernardo, Pickton and Olson were (all retroactively with Olson being convicted before Bundy was). Canada brought it in to keep Olson behind bars forever and they'd have done the same for Bundy. Had these two made it out alive, I'm inclined to think the same DO status would have awaited them.

It is now common ground, Britain, Au, Nz, Canada to exercise a common procedure along the lines of the Dangerous Offender provision. Here in AU it's the Life with No Possibility of Parole, and that sentence has been placed on some offenders at the age of 20. Not many, and not all male .

It is not a common sentence dished out, but provision is there for it, and it is laid down when the facts of the crime are so heinous, so' offensive to our collective community conscious' as one perceptive judge put it, that it cannot be avoided.

I was always surprised that Karla got out so early,..,. Karla Homolka. ..

 

[Runningforthewind]

I was always surprised that Karla got out so early,..,. Karla Homolka. ..

And to thinks he has three kids now.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks for this. I was watching the live PC but I was a little side-tracked and missed a few parts. Must've missed that part.

I think them being "trapped" there makes sense. It's a fairly open area, couldn't hide anymore and probably getting more desperate by the moment. I think they would have tried to kill more people before their own demise - like they said they would - if they hadn't reached some sort of obstacle, whether that being heavy police presence, they had gotten lost, they had gotten exhausted.. or they had gotten stuck somewhere.

Mr Beardie also said the banks were steep. As high as 30 metres, that’s almost 100 feet and the typical height of a 10 story building.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/northern-manitoba-reaction-rcmp-report-1.5301874
“Police say some of McLeod's items were found on Aug. 1. Six days later, Beardy said he was heading back to an area where a sleeping bag and backpack were spotted, along with about four officers.

"The last day was a miserable day because the weather wasn't on our side," he said. "The water was so rough."

So was the shoreline. The banks are steep, says Beardy — as high as 30 metres — and difficult to climb.

But during that fateful day in the boat, he says he noticed a raven jump — and another officer spotted it, too.

Fighting the fast-paced and rough water, they turned around the boat, finding McLeod's body first.

Schmegelsky's was not apparent until they got off the boat.

"I couldn't believe it," Beardy said. "It was just like a big surprise when we found them."

He then simply adds, "I was glad I was there."

 

[Vern]

...Here in AU it's the Life with No Possibility of Parole, and that sentence has been placed on some offenders at the age of 20. ...

I was always surprised that Karla got out so early,..,. Karla Homolka. ..

"At Her Majesty's pleasure". A best friend of mine was intimately involved as an investigator on the Bernardo/Homolka case. Not much nice to say about poor woe is me Karla.

 

[JuneBug67]

As I noted in my post, it doesn't apply to just murders or those without parole dates.

It doesn’t apply to murders at all. At all.

 

[MistyWaters]

Dangerous Offender status doesn’t even apply to first or second degree murder. It’s for crimes that may not necessarily carry a life sentence. Bernardo, for example, got DO status in lieu of prosecuting him for his crimes as the Scarborough rapist.

You’re right.

Dangerous offender - Wikipedia
“In Canadian criminal law, a convicted person who is designated a dangerous offender may be subjected to an indeterminate prison sentence, whether or not the crime carries a life sentence, but this does not apply to convictions of first degree murder, second degree murder, high treason, and treason.”

 

[Vern]

It doesn’t apply to murders at all. At all.

Violent crimes and sex crimes. I think murder applies as violent no? Dangerous Offender replaced the terms for Habitual Offender, Violent Offender and Sexual Offenders.

Multiple Murder qualifies (habitual) as does serial drunk driving. And, some of our Canadian Serial killers qualify on all three of the offender counts.

 

[Vern]

You’re right.

Dangerous offender - Wikipedia
“In Canadian criminal law, a convicted person who is designated a dangerous offender may be subjected to an indeterminate prison sentence, whether or not the crime carries a life sentence, but this does not apply to convictions of first degree murder, second degree murder, high treason, and treason.”

That doesn't mean someone who commits a sole murder can not be deemed a DO; it just means it must meet one of the other three criteria as well. Else everyone convicted of a sole murder would be a DO.

 

[JuneBug67]

You’re right.

Dangerous offender - Wikipedia
“In Canadian criminal law, a convicted person who is designated a dangerous offender may be subjected to an indeterminate prison sentence, whether or not the crime carries a life sentence, but this does not apply to convictions of first degree murder, second degree murder, high treason, and treason.”

It makes sense when you realize that murder (and treason) convictions don’t require any extra mechanism to keep people behind bars. They carry life sentences, so people can just never be granted parole. DO status is for crimes that may eventually have a statutory release date, but offenders are too dangerous or habitual to be let out.

 

[JuneBug67]

That doesn't mean someone who commits a sole murder can not be deemed a DO; it just means it must meet one of the other three criteria as well. Else everyone convicted of a sole murder would be a DO.

They can be DOs if they have convictions that qualify for that status. Murder convictions do not qualify. It’s the easiest thing in the world to look up.

 

[katydid23]

I want to know the toxicology results. I know now that they did indeed killed three people but something is not sitting right with me. Were there any drugs in their system? The boys got to Fort Nelson fairly quickly, so maybe they were on some kind of drugs to stay awake. On the final video's Bryer did most of the talking so do really know what Kam's mind frame was?

I do wonder if they had originally intended to go kill? Northern B.C and the Yukon have a lot of wildlife which is ideal for hunting. That could be why he stopped and bought the rifle, so they could both have one. Maybe something triggered them, or they were high on drugs or tired from driving long distances, stopped when they noticed the broken down van.

I just don't get that these two, particularly Kam is a psychopath. There is no reports of Kam doing anything for some kind of gain. There is no reports of any violence, dishonesty or anything of the sort. Not all psychopaths are killers, but there is usually some indication of them being selfish. As far as we know Kam was described as a nice guy.

I'm also still trying to wrap my brain around Kam shooting Bryer in the back of the head? That was his best friend. Even if it was a suicide pact, he had to be on some kind of drug.

IF he was such a nice guy, why was his very best and closest friend, a guy who wore Nazi armbands and liked to shock others with his vile remarks?

I don't think Kam was as sweet and innocent as you portray him. JMO