Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

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So in Canada serial killers are charged with second-degree murder if they choose their victims opportunistically? I find that very hard to believe.

They stole a car. I can't believe this is still being debated, frankly. It might be first degree based on their confessions but unlikely to get a conviction otherwise. Besides which, they had all the time in the world to upgrade the charges. There's stringent rules in BC about laying charges... there has to be a certain probability of conviction.
 
Sitting exposed beside a river in that area at that time of year... They must have been sick from bugs eating them alive, or drinking parasite contaminated water if they didn't have any clean water..

I've seen a lot of posts on here about them (K and B) not being able to get back up the steep bank and being apparently trapped there. I haven't seen that in any news articles yet, it's easy to miss things when there's so much info though lol. Anyone have a link to where it says that?

If they really were stuck there and ultimately decided to end it there, I think they were probably in bad shape and had to give up. Probably weak, exhausted, starving, dehydrated, sick, delirious.. All things that would make getting back up a steep slippery slope especially difficult or impossible.

The statement about them being trapped was sourced from Friday’s live RCMP Press Conference.

This report isn’t verbatim but it does offer the gist of what was said.

“After eluding police for more than two weeks, triple homicide suspects Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky had reached rural northern Manitoba with a fantastical, movie-like idea of escape: hijack a boat and then make their way to Europe or Africa.

But they would not get far in pursuing that far-fetched idea: they hit a dead end when they reached the large, fast-flowing Nelson River and they were at the bottom of a steep embankment that was impossible to climb back up...”
B.C. teen killers hatched plan to hijack a boat and escape to Africa. It ended in suicide instead
 
Yes indeed it’s very different between the two countries and thank goodness Bundy didn’t commit murders in Canada. In 1989 the maximum jail term he’d face here would’ve been 25 years considering all sentencing ran concurrently at that time. He’d have been released from prison by now.

What?!?! How is that even possible?! That's absolutely terrifying.

I saw a lot of comments on this case saying "Kam and Bryer should have just turned themselves in, they'd be out in 25 years anyway." But I thought those people were just being facetious...apparently not.

Well either way, my criticism of the way the Canadian police run things stands. Maybe that is their protocol but I don't agree with their protocol. On this and, apparently, many other things.

I considered trying to move to Canada back in 2016...good thing I didn't....

Sitting exposed beside a river in that area at that time of year... They must have been sick from bugs eating them alive, or drinking parasite contaminated water if they didn't have any clean water..

I've seen a lot of posts on here about them (K and B) not being able to get back up the steep bank and being apparently trapped there. I haven't seen that in any news articles yet, it's easy to miss things when there's so much info though lol. Anyone have a link to where it says that?

If they really were stuck there and ultimately decided to end it there, I think they were probably in bad shape and had to give up. Probably weak, exhausted, starving, dehydrated, sick, delirious.. All things that would make getting back up a steep slippery slope especially difficult or impossible.

Could be. That would explain their delusional statements made on the videos, at least.

I was in the Walmart camping section a few weeks ago though, and I did of course, note that they sell water purification tablets and devices there. If these guys had any semblance of "survivalist training" they could have easily gotten those. But who knows if it was even that planned.

It depends whether or not the victims are intentionally chosen and it can be proven their murder was preplanned. Picton is an example of how it was proven he selected his victims and brought them to his pig farm.

But I’ve noticed nothing to suggest B&K fit the classic definition of serial killers. Regardless, as they are dead so they will never be tried.

JMO -- they were spree killers, not serial killers. This is all based on reading I've done on the topic:

Serial killers live an otherwise normal life and intermittently kill over the course of years or even decades. There is a cooling-off period between the murders. They usually take more steps to plan, and to avoid getting caught, like dumping the victims' bodies in a remote location far from where they were abducted. They have a self-preservation instinct, ie. they don't want to die or be captured.

For spree killers, it's generally a suicide mission from the outset, ie. an "extinction burst." They have lost their self-preservation instinct and know it will end in death or capture. They generally don't make much of an attempt to avoid getting caught -- in fact, quite the opposite usually. They're trying to make a statement, like a middle finger to the world or whoever they felt "wronged" them.

Their motive is generally rage. If the spree is targeting people they know, it's rage against those specific people. If the spree is targeting random people, it's rage against the world or society. There is also little to no cooling-off period between the murders -- which we now know there wasn't for Kam and Bryer, given their attempted murder on the 17th.

That's why I say this was a "Columbine thing." One was a mass shooting/failed bombing and the other was a series of random murders, but I think the motives were very similar.

EDIT: The main thing in this case that's atypical of spree killers is that they stopped. Usually spree killers continue killing until they die or are captured. I think that's why a lot of people thought they would have remorse for what they did, because they didn't continue doing it.
 
Hackett says:

"The suspects then burned their vehicle to cover up evidence and..."

This makes me think 2 (or more) things:

*At some point maybe LD was in the camper, because RCMP don't say that L&C were ever in the camper, so what evidence is the RCMP suggesting they burned the camper to cover up?
And,
*The computers (everyone has their white whale...)
Maybe K&B burned the truck to get rid of digital evidence on their computers?

*Something's a little off for me...It doesn't quite sit right with me that KM leaves his ID as a calling card, and tries to cover up evidence at a crime scene.
 
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I considered trying to move to Canada back in 2016...good thing I didn't....

Well I suppose another way to look at it, if one has the misfortune of becoming a murder victim, how many years the perp spends in jail doesn’t bring the victim back to life. The odds of being murdered in Canada are three times less than in the US.

One of the reasons this story gained avid national attention was because “armed and dangerous” 18 and 19 year old men accused of murdering three innocent strangers under the guise of job hunting up north is highly uncommon. Unfortunately it will probably leave an impact including people becoming less trusting of strangers. Gun control and further restrictions on assault type weapons is once again a topic on the plate during our impending Canadian October federal election. Canada is a much different country than the US, in that regard too. Iirc LD was noted to be a pacifist and chose not to visit the US for that reason. Tragically, he became a shooting victim within his own country. :(

“As in previous years, the homicide rate in Canada is about three times lower than in the United States but higher than the rates in many other countries such as the United Kingdom, France and Australia..”
Homicide in Canada, 2017
 
Hackett says:

"The suspects then burned their vehicle to cover up evidence and..."

This makes me think 2 (or more) things:

*At some point maybe LD was in the camper, because RCMP don't say that L&C were ever in the camper, so what evidence is the RCMP suggesting they burned the camper to cover up?
And,
*The computers (everyone has their white whale...)
Maybe K&B burned the truck to get rid of digital evidence on their computers?

*Something's a little off for me...It doesn't quite sit right with me that KM leaves his ID as a calling card, and tries to cover up evidence at a crime scene.
Could be just K&B effing with police too...
 
"According to police, Schmegelsky had hunted with his father in the area a number of times."

This error, and the others in the report might be simply bias, conscious or not. A LOT of people think BS "looks" more psycho, and that's bad enough, but combined with people also thinking KM "looks" innocent, it sets up snap judgements. When these types of biases --basing judgements, or commenting on how someone looks, become part of the narrative, it reinforces the biases.

It's unchecked bias, not just poor proof reading IMHO.
I agree, yesterday I tweeted the writer, as well as posted on two of Black Press pages, no correction to date.
 
*Something's a little off for me...It doesn't quite sit right with me that KM leaves his ID as a calling card, and tries to cover up evidence at a crime scene.
KM's intentionally damaged SIM, and his Walmart ID card, were thrown far into some bushes for sure.

RCMP searched a very large area near Highway 37 and Stikine River crossing. Check the map.
 
Hackett says:

"The suspects then burned their vehicle to cover up evidence and..."

This makes me think 2 (or more) things:

*At some point maybe LD was in the camper, because RCMP don't say that L&C were ever in the camper, so what evidence is the RCMP suggesting they burned the camper to cover up?
And,
*The computers (everyone has their white whale...)
Maybe K&B burned the truck to get rid of digital evidence on their computers?

*Something's a little off for me...It doesn't quite sit right with me that KM leaves his ID as a calling card, and tries to cover up evidence at a crime scene.

One reason for attempting to burn (aka totally destroy) the truck and camper as evidence might be they thought their failed attempt at attacking the man near Haines Junction resulted in him obtaining the licence plate number or was able to provide an accurate description of their vehicle. They seemed to have fled from the far north very quickly and then their flight eastward soon escalated. The question would be - what rattled them more, silencing victims through murder or an alive potential victim who escaped and therefore might’ve had the ability to identify them?
RCMP in British Columbia - Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation
July 17 - 23:40pm Haines Junction
July 18 - 15:03 Dease Lake, BC
 
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"In Canada, murder is either first or second degree. Persons convicted of either degree of murder must be sentenced to imprisonment for life. Persons convicted of first-degree murder are not eligible for parole until they have served at least 25 years of their sentence. Persons convicted of second-degree murder are not eligible for parole until they have served between 10 and 25 years, as determined by the Court. It is important to note that convicted persons who were under 18 at the time of the offence have different periods of parole ineligibility."

From the Department of Justice website. How sentences are imposed - Canadian Victims Bill of Rights

Life means life.

One can apply for parole after 25 years, or 10, but that doesn't mean they'll be granted parole. Much like Bernardo, Bundy would NOT be paroled...

And yes of course, mistakes are made...
 
"In Canada, murder is either first or second degree. Persons convicted of either degree of murder must be sentenced to imprisonment for life. Persons convicted of first-degree murder are not eligible for parole until they have served at least 25 years of their sentence. Persons convicted of second-degree murder are not eligible for parole until they have served between 10 and 25 years, as determined by the Court. It is important to note that convicted persons who were under 18 at the time of the offence have different periods of parole ineligibility."

From the Department of Justice website. How sentences are imposed - Canadian Victims Bill of Rights

Life means life.

One can apply for parole after 25 years, or 10, but that doesn't mean they'll be granted parole. Much like Bernardo, Bundy would NOT be paroled...

And yes of course, mistakes are made...

That’s theoretically correct but how many prisoners are you aware of who are held beyond their 25 year “life” sentence in Canada.

Surely there’s no argument that Canadian sentencing is notoriously soft compared to the US? The reason is Canada’s entire correctional system is based on rehabilitation, not punishment as in the US. Right or wrong, that’s just how it is.

Had B or K not died by suicide, because of their young age and other possible mitigating “excuses”, I’d have been very surprised if they’d have been sentenced to maximum anything.
 
One reason for attempting to burn (aka totally destroy) the truck and camper as evidence might be they thought their failed attempt at attacking the man near Haines Junction resulted in him obtaining the licence plate number or was able to provide an accurate description of their vehicle. They seemed to have fled from the far north very quickly and then their flight eastward soon escalated. The question would be - what rattled them more, silencing victims through murder or an alive potential victim who escaped and therefore might’ve had the ability of identifying them?
RCMP in British Columbia - Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation
July 17 - 23:40pm Haines Junction
July 18 - 15:03 Dease Lake, BC
Right, that poor guy...

And that makes sense, you're saying maybe K&B thought the truck itself was evidence of that attempt.

That poor guy, how do you bounce back from that?
 
how many prisoners are you aware of who are held beyond their 25 year “life” sentence in Canada.
I don't know any prisoners, personally. I think though, that more prisoners who are NOT granted parole die in prison.

And, you are 100% correct, the Canadian system is based on rehabilitation, much like many advanced countries.

It seems to me that the system in the US, much like everything else in the States, is based on profit margins and abuse of human rights.

ETA: I realize just now how idiotic this sounds:
"I think though, that more prisoners who are NOT granted parole die in prison."
 
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Right, that poor guy...

And that makes sense, you're saying maybe K&B thought the truck itself was evidence of that attempt.

That poor guy, how do you bounce back from that?


Yeah, I agree. Probably what saved him was he’d only been parked for five minutes so he hadn’t yet gone to sleep. As described, if it happened in isolation, this incident just so totally surreal I wonder if he didn’t report it right away because he thought nobody would believe him. A guy with a gun hops out of the vehicle and begins moving toward him from the tree line in a tactical or hunting stance while the truck begins backing up....that’s generally stuff out of movies, not real life. Yes, it sure must be very difficult for him to come to terms with, knowing what he knows now.

“On July 17, 2019, at approximately 11:40 p.m., a witness was driving westbound on Alaska Highway and pulled off the road into a pullout to take a nap. This was located approximately 30 minutes west from Haines Junction Petro Canada and 2 hours 10 minutes west of Whitehorse. Within 5 minutes of being parked, a truck with camper drove past him and stopped about 50 yards ahead. An unknown male got out of the passenger side of the truck holding a long gun. The male walked towards the tree line and started moving towards the witness in a tactical or hunting stance. The truck also started driving slowly towards the witness. The witness drove away from the armed male and drove past the truck. The driver covered his face with his hand and the witness was not able to see the driver’s face. [Although the witness described the truck as being a white GMC, the time, location and male descriptions fit McLeod and Schmegelsky. The witness made the report to police on July 21, 2019.]”
Full RCMP Report: Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation
 
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