Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

[MistyWaters]

I don't know any prisoners, personally. I think though, that more prisoners who are NOT granted parole die in prison.

And, you are 100% correct, the Canadian system is based on rehabilitation, much like many advanced countries.

It seems to me that the system in the US, much like everything else in the States, is based on profit margins and abuse of human rights.

ETA: I realize just now how idiotic this sounds:
"I think though, that more prisoners who are NOT granted parole die in prison."

In 2006 Canada passed a law enabling certain criminals to be designated as Dangerous Offenders and held indefinitely.
Dangerous offender - Wikipedia

 

[NJSleuth91]

Hackett says:

"The suspects then burned their vehicle to cover up evidence and..."

This makes me think 2 (or more) things:

*At some point maybe LD was in the camper, because RCMP don't say that L&C were ever in the camper, so what evidence is the RCMP suggesting they burned the camper to cover up?
And,
*The computers (everyone has their white whale...)
Maybe K&B burned the truck to get rid of digital evidence on their computers?

*Something's a little off for me...It doesn't quite sit right with me that KM leaves his ID as a calling card, and tries to cover up evidence at a crime scene.

I think that's just their best guess as to why they burned the truck. I can't imagine any forensic evidence of Professor Dyck being in the camper would have been left behind after how thoroughly it was burned, so I don't know if they could say for sure that he was. Plus, as other people have noted, the casing was found right next to where his body was, which indicates he probably wasn't moved after being killed.

But really, it could have been for any number of reasons -- even to attract attention to the scene.

Well I suppose another way to look at it, if one has the misfortune of becoming a murder victim, how many years the perp spends in jail doesn’t bring the victim back to life. The odds of being murdered in Canada are three times less than in the US.

Of course it doesn't bring the victim back to life. But it does keep the perpetrator contained so as to reduce their ability to kill or harm people again.

One of the reasons this story gained avid national attention was because “armed and dangerous” 18 and 19 year old men accused of murdering three innocent strangers under the guise of job hunting up north is highly uncommon.

Well, sort of. I'd argue the question of "why" was the main reason why it gained so much attention. I've never had much interest in any murder cases before this one, and the question of motive was the reason why I was interested in it.

And I think it's entirely due to the actions of the police that this case gained so much attention, and one might even say notoriety for Kam and Bryer. Had the police cleared up what this whole thing was earlier on, by taking the steps I described earlier, I think the media and general public would have lost interest in the case fairly quickly. And had they just released more information to the families as the investigation went along, there wouldn't have been those interviews of Bryer's dad and leaks about the videos. Another reason why I criticize how they handled this. If their goal was to prevent copycat killings, I don't think they took the right steps to prevent that because it opened the door to media and public sensationalism and keeping this case in the news for two months.

Unfortunately it will probably leave an impact including people becoming less trusting of strangers. Gun control and further restrictions on assault type weapons is once again a topic on the plate during our impending Canadian October federal election. Canada is a much different country than the US, in that regard too.

We'll see what happens. I would like to see more of an impact in terms of effective detection and intervention protocols for violence among young people, given all the warning signs we already know about that were missed (and there were probably others we didn't know about). But who knows what steps, if any, will be taken in that direction.

Iirc LD was noted to be a pacifist and chose not to visit the US for that reason. Tragically, he became a shooting victim within his own country.

That's one of the saddest ironies of this case. Well that, and the fact that Chynna had a degree in psychology.

That’s theoretically correct but how many prisoners are you aware of who are held beyond their 25 year “life” sentence in Canada.

Surely there’s no argument that Canadian sentencing is notoriously soft compared to the US? The reason is Canada’s entire correctional system is based on rehabilitation, not punishment as in the US. Right or wrong, that’s just how it is.

Had B or K not died by suicide, because of their young age and other possible mitigating “excuses”, I’d have been very surprised if they’d have been sentenced to maximum anything.

I agree with the goal of rehabilitation vs. punishment. However there's also the question of protecting the public. People who have life sentences often are rehabilitated behind bars. Many people still are able to have meaning in their lives even if they are serving life in prison. But that doesn't mean they should be released. The recidivism rate for murder is very low, but I think it's not worth the risk. I've always said they should have gotten life without parole if they were captured, regardless of whether it was a planned killing spree or not.

That poor guy, how do you bounce back from that?

Well I guess it depends on your perspective. Like either it could be traumatizing to him and he could feel survivor's guilt, or he could feel really lucky and appreciate life even more. Or some combination of the two. For example Seth MacFarlane narrowly escaped dying in 9/11 and he didn't seem to be traumatized by it at all.

 

[NJSleuth91]

And, you are 100% correct, the Canadian system is based on rehabilitation, much like many advanced countries.

It seems to me that the system in the US, much like everything else in the States, is based on profit margins and abuse of human rights.

People can still be rehabilitated and have meaningful lives even if they are serving a life sentence. Going to prison doesn't mean your life is over.

As described, if it happened in isolation, this incident just so totally surreal I wonder if he didn’t report it right away because he thought nobody would believe him. A guy with a gun hops out of the vehicle and begins moving toward him from the tree line in a tactical or hunting stance while the truck begins backing up....that’s generally stuff out of movies, not real life. Yes, it sure must be very difficult for him to come to terms with, knowing what he knows now.

SBM

I also was confused about why it took him four days to report it. I bet he probably was like "did that really happen?" Maybe even thinking it was some kind of prank or even a hallucination, especially if he had been driving for a long time. But then later on he found out about the other killings and was like "OMG!!"

 

[SovereignSnake]

SBM

I'm pretty sure it was their plan all along and they said in the videos that's what they were going to do.

From the report: "Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact."

I think Bryer probably had this very specific fantasy for a long time of Kam being the one to kill him. It's really the ultimate expression of their codependency, isn't it?

@NJSleuth91 I can agree with this theory and that interpretation of the suicide scene in the final report.

Also I think I quoted the wrong post @Optics. The thread was getting a little wonky and I either misread that comment or it quoted the wrong one so I apologize for it sounding redundant to what you had originally stated.

Anyway, @NJSleuth91 now you've got me wondering if the older gun did give them problems? Perhaps right after they killed Lucas and Chynna it jammed with all the shots they fired. Obviously I can't imagine Bryer would abandon his weapon, possibly in hopes they could get it working again but then I think of those military films like Full Metal Jacket; "This is my rifle..." and you get the idea. I guess my interpretation from the videos was they did indeed conclude they were going to kill themselves in a suicide pact days, if not from the very beginning if things didn't go in their favor. But they made no mention of how it would be done in the videos. Maybe they even said all the suicide stuff melodramatically at first with hopes there would be another plot twist and they would actually escape and not fully accepting or believing they would have to kill themselves. I think when it got right down to those final minutes is when Bryer realized he couldn't kill himself, especially if they had to take turns. In other words, yes, they were intent on suicide at the end and made the pact but in those final moments at the river's edge, when it was real, the pact changed. Bryer then perhaps asked Kam to kill him. Remember we were all initially under the impression it was an "on the count of 3 scenario" until we found out Bryer was shot in the back of the head. I think we can all agree the count of 3 scenario would have made things easier. But why they didn't use both guns has really been sticking with me. I wondered too if Bryer was also afraid to go first for fear that Kam would reconsider and turn himself in. There was a mountain of trust right there alone. I'm sure it's highly unlikely that Kam would have ever done that (turn himself in) but I also think Bryer could have simply been too scared to go first, but then maybe he also couldn't watch Kam go first either. I had said last night, I feel like Bryer was the "hype" and the idealistic "dreamer" in their relationship and I think in those last remaining moments he just didn't want to admit their adventure was over. Still, I read the video transcripts and it sounds like they both intended to kill themselves with their own guns. So what happened? Speaking of those videos... It even sounded like in Video 3 they were going to head into Sundance or back to Gillam, take more lives and die in a shootout. After they made that video is when they probably realized how many people were actually hunting them. Notice how Video 4 is only 19 seconds long compared to the first 2 videos being almost a minute. (Albeit, Video 3 is only 32 seconds, yet they still give themselves one week to live.) All that was provided from Video 4 was they're going to "shoot themselves." It sounds like the hope was completely gone the day they made Video 4. There's another question. Do you think they made one video a day with the exception of that 6 second video?

 

[sandbar]

People can still be rehabilitated and have meaningful lives even if they are serving a life sentence. Going to prison doesn't mean your life is over.

I kinda think you have to be out of an institution to know whether rehabilitation has occurred. I am sure some people make lemonade in prison, others are strengthening their criminal ties.

 

[CinNC]

Sitting exposed beside a river in that area at that time of year... They must have been sick from bugs eating them alive, or drinking parasite contaminated water if they didn't have any clean water..

I've seen a lot of posts on here about them (K and B) not being able to get back up the steep bank and being apparently trapped there. I haven't seen that in any news articles yet, it's easy to miss things when there's so much info though lol. Anyone have a link to where it says that?

If they really were stuck there and ultimately decided to end it there, I think they were probably in bad shape and had to give up. Probably weak, exhausted, starving, dehydrated, sick, delirious.. All things that would make getting back up a steep slippery slope especially difficult or impossible.

I am not sure if it is in any written articles. Assistant Commissioner Hackett said this very succinctly in the press conference on Friday of last week.

 

[Chingaling]

For some reason I can't reply directly to a post but,I was thinking that KM was the one to decide when it was over and shot BS when he turned his back on KM.Maybe BS never saw it coming.He knew it was coming but he didn't know when.I believe KM called all the shots,no pun intended.Oh also wonder which one shot LD?

 

[NJSleuth91]

I kinda think you have to be out of an institution to know whether rehabilitation has occurred. I am sure some people make lemonade in prison, others are strengthening their criminal ties.

So you want to test whether they were rehabilitated by releasing them and seeing what they do?

Not to get all philosophical, but I think ultimately, you are what you do. That's why I never subscribed to the belief that these two were "born evil" or "destined to kill from birth," or that this couldn't have been prevented, because their actions weren't always evil. Being a psychopath or sociopath doesn't mean you're evil if your behavior is pro-social or at least morally neutral. Having violent fantasies but never acting on them doesn't mean you're evil. Doing the right things for the wrong reasons (ie. being pro-social because it gets you the results that you want) doesn't mean you're evil. Basically, unless they committed other crimes or violence we don't know about (which I doubt), they weren't evil until July 2019, regardless of how they felt or what they talked about amongst themselves.

So basically if someone commits murder, and then goes to prison and is a model prisoner, they'll always be evil to some extent because of what they did. But also it is possible that they were actually rehabilitated in prison to be pro-social, because that's what their actions suggest, which makes them less evil than if they had just continued hurting people and causing mayhem. However, even if they actually were rehabilitated, that doesn't mean we should ever risk the public's safety by testing it out -- they could "relapse," especially if exposed to similar stressors that caused them to go off the rails in the first place.

I also think that 25 years from now, we'll have a lot more effective interventions for psychopathic and sociopathic tendencies than we do now. There's a lot of promising research on that topic.

 

[Trooper]

I kinda think you have to be out of an institution to know whether rehabilitation has occurred. I am sure some people make lemonade in prison, others are strengthening their criminal ties.

I actually cannot imagine a criteria that it could be measured that one had achieved 'rehabilitation' while in prison. I suppose, eg. if one isn't murdering women, per se , whilst in , eg, (picked at random ) Trenton State Prison NJ.. because finding a woman to murder there would be difficult. Perhaps one of the guards, but they are inconveniently armed, and generally quite large ladies, of a particular no nonsense approach to life, an unfair advantage.

If, say, one was transferred to the Edna Mahan Correctional Facility for Women (Clinton) and , as a male prisoner, somehow refrained from murdering the inmates, could they be called rehabilitated?

It's a moot point, since the chance of being let loose in a women's prison as a male lifer would be remote, even for New Jersey.

Perhaps 'finding the Lord' is a euphemism for rehabilitation in the US, generally. It seems a lot of US prisoners have this experience, almost immediately the doors clang shut, but I don't think that is so prevalent in Canada. I know it isn't in AU, claiming to 'find the Lord' in any Australian prison will get you an extra clip around the ears on a daily basis.... we can't be having that malarkey in Long Bay Prison! .

Brett Cowan, a revolting killer, claimed he'd 'found the Lord' up in a notoriously hard QLD prison and no sooner were the words out of his mouth than he was inundated with boiling water, a singularly uncomfortable warning .

 

[Esprite]

Also noticed this from the report: "Victims from both scenes suffered gunshot wounds in similar locations"

I wonder if that means that all of them were shot in the back of the head, like how Kam shot Bryer. It sounds like it, considering: a) Professor Dyck's gunshot wound was not seen until his body was moved, b) Chynna suffered gunshot related injuries to the face which people speculated was from an exit wound that went through the back of her head.

Not to get too gory, but it sounds like maybe the other injuries were to disable the victims and then the final kill shot was administered to the back of the head and that particular method had some symbolic significance for these guys.

This is execution-style killing, where the shooter has complete control over the victim, who is often on their knees.

In regard to the second degree murder charge, a first degree murder in Canada is one that is planned and deliberate. where the victim is know by the killer. Not a random killing like in this case.

 

[Trooper]

It would require a genetic bypass, to make a psychopath Pro Social. This is the kind of stuff of many fantasies, going back a long way, H.G. Wells wrote one, where murderers are confined to an isolated island, where they have to socialize to survive. Guess what ? I wont do the spoiler, but you get my drift.

Making a psychopath pro social is the equivalent of a total head transplant. Total. A complete rewire.

To the best of our knowledge, there is no cure for psychopathy. No pill can instill empathy, no vaccine can prevent murder in cold blood, and no amount of talk therapy can change an uncaring mind. For all intents and purposes, psychopaths are lost to the normal social world.

 

[NJSleuth91]

This is execution-style killing, where the shooter has complete control over the victim, who is often on their knees.

That fits with the motive having to do with feelings of rage and powerlessness towards the world....I also wonder if there's any symbolic significance to it in terms of "militia" stuff (anyone know?)

In regard to the second degree murder charge, a first degree murder in Canada is one that is planned and deliberate. where the victim is know by the killer. Not a random killing like in this case.

I see. So what you're saying is Ted Bundy would have only been charged with second-degree murder, had he committed his crimes in Canada, because he chose his victims opportunistically.

That is still very confusing to me, and I think caused a good deal of the confusion in this case, but whatever.

 

[NJSleuth91]

It would require a genetic bypass, to make a psychopath Pro Social. This is the kind of stuff of many fantasies, going back a long way, H.G. Wells wrote one, where murderers are confined to an isolated island, where they have to socialize to survive. Guess what ? I wont do the spoiler, but you get my drift.

Making a psychopath pro social is the equivalent of a total head transplant. Total. A complete rewire.

To the best of our knowledge, there is no cure for psychopathy. No pill can instill empathy, no vaccine can prevent murder in cold blood, and no amount of talk therapy can change an uncaring mind. For all intents and purposes, psychopaths are lost to the normal social world.

And yet, most psychopaths and sociopaths are non-violent. That's what "pro-social" means...it's a descriptor of behavior.

Also, there is research into this topic on interventions to encourage pro-social behavior, some of which have promising results.

 

[NJSleuth91]

@Trooper

I also see part of your post was a quote from this article which you passed off as your own statement...if you read the entire article though, you can see that this article actually does talk about some of the research that is being done into this topic and its results.

Can Psychopaths Be Cured? | Mechanisms of Disinhibition (MoD) Laboratory

 

[Trooper]

Has anyone asked a psychopath if they want to be
'cured'? It has to be understood that they don't see themselves as sick, they see you as expendable. They are not suffering from loneliness, or rejection, or angst about not being invited to the school prom.

It really is a contradiction in terms to imagine that psychopaths would be lining up for a cure, even if there was one. They want to CURE YOU!

By whatever means are most practical under the circumstances, and if that means beating and burning and shooting you, well. So be it. That's how it rolls. That's you, cured , from the psychopaths point of view.

 

[Trooper]

That fits with the motive having to do with feelings of rage and powerlessness towards the world....I also wonder if there's any symbolic significance to it in terms of "militia" stuff (anyone know?)



I see. So what you're saying is Ted Bundy would have only been charged with second-degree murder, had he committed his crimes in Canada, because he chose his victims opportunistically.

That is still very confusing to me, and I think caused a good deal of the confusion in this case, but whatever.

In New Jersey, until they had concluded more of the level of the murder, as a holding tactic, and undergoing a manhunt, he would , at the beginning , be charged with 2nd degree until further and better particulars came to light. Which is exactly what the Canadian law is and what the RCMP did. The Brits would follow that procedure, AU follows that procedure. It was enough to kickstart the nationwide manhunt, and that was the criteria.

This old chestnut keeps popping up like one's drunken uncle at a family reunion. I think it has been dealt with on every thread of this particular event at least 500 times, yet it still staggers back.

from NJ case law.

Difference between First Degree and Second Degree Murder

New Jersey murders are categorized as either murder in the first degree or murder in the second degree. It's critical to understand the definition for first degree murder because it affects the definition for second degree murder: All murders that aren't in the first degree are categorized as second degree murder. Second degree murder includes murders committed on impulse, murders resulting from the actor's intent to cause serious harm, and murders showing that the actor displayed a disregard for human life. Premeditation or deliberation is a factor that differentiates first degree murder from second degree murder, although it's not present in all first degree murders (for example, felony murder killings).

 

[SiciC]

For some reason I can't reply directly to a post but,I was thinking that KM was the one to decide when it was over and shot BS when he turned his back on KM.Maybe BS never saw it coming.He knew it was coming but he didn't know when.I believe KM called all the shots,no pun intended.Oh also wonder which one shot LD?

All speculation, but I think there's at least a possibility that Kam did it unexpectedly, unless there is some details in the vids/pics or evidence to 100% leave no doubt that Bryer was willing and prepared to be shot when he was. Of course we don't know everything LE knows, and they likely have that proof. Maybe they verbally laid it all out on one of the videos. Otherwise, how could it be sure that Bryer wasn't asleep when it happened? Or just turned away not looking? They could have gotten in a disagreement about what to do next or something like that and Kam decided it was time for both of them? Kam might have felt desperate or delirious when it happened. Who knows? The shot to the back of the head seems odd but not too hard to imagine that Bryer didn't want to watch maybe, and maybe Kam didn't want to see his face either.

Regardless I think Kam made the final call of when to do it, whether they agreed on that time or not. IMO Kam was the powerhouse in their relationship. He graduated first, he had his license and could drive, he had a truck registered under his own name and not parents, he had a gun license and was able to purchase a firearm, he seemed to be ahead of Bryer in all the pics of them in public(the surveillance video in meadow lake, the gas station photos where he's paying and Bryer is just standing behind him), he came from a better family, and he ultimately was the one that was capable of killing his best friend, and Bryer had to go first for some reason. Kam was definitely the leader in my mind, especially after all the information came out and the way it ended. It was easy to see Bryer as a questionable, shady guy pretty soon into this case, but Kam had even less social media presence, seemed quieter and was more of an enigma and still is.. It seemed like everyone who knew him wouldn't expect it from him, and didn't really see anything strange about him prior to this massacre.... Those are some qualities that some spree killers have in common. (Chris Watts for example)

All JMO.

 

[NJSleuth91]

In New Jersey, until they had concluded more of the level of the murder, as a holding tactic, and undergoing a manhunt, he would , at the beginning , be charged with 2nd degree until further and better particulars came to light. Which is exactly what the Canadian law is and what the RCMP did. The Brits would follow that procedure, AU follows that procedure. It was enough to kickstart the nationwide manhunt, and that was the criteria.

Yes, and further and better particulars came to light on the 21st and 24th. As I've said a million times.

 

[Trooper]

And yet, most psychopaths and sociopaths are non-violent. That's what "pro-social" means...it's a descriptor of behavior.

Also, there is research into this topic on interventions to encourage pro-social behavior, some of which have promising results.

Look, that is a spurious claim. That most psychopaths are non violent, that is claiming to know how long is a piece of string, you cannot say that every psychopath on earth has been measured for non violent tendencies. What I think you mean, is , you just don't know , and no one knows, what pschyopaths get away with. That is just a simple fallacy. If you look at it, dispassionately, it cannot make any sense.

How many blondes don't spit on the street? how many women with pink nail polish try and scam a parking spot? . I mean .. come on !..

Who, exactly would be taking all these reports of the non violent behavior of psychopaths, and where would this organization be located?

 

[Trooper]

It is a bit disturbing that making up nonsense claims about the prevalence of non violent psychopaths and it is a rather dangerous concept to try and float as concrete. Especially, when it is a self evident fact, that the people who knew them best, their parents , who even spoke to them after they were highly satisfied double murderers, and on the way to another, HAD NO CLUE. ..

What I am pointing out there, is, even after their sons had murdered, there was no way that those parents had of changing their mind that their sons were ' kind, caring' ' lost, young'. and so on. They were reporting that their psychopath son was non violent, you see? AND HOW WRONG WERE THEY, hmm? .

As fine a demonstration as to the total ignorance of tendencies that a psychopath can weave about themselves, at a very young age too.