Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

[Satchie]

And don't ya just love how they say they are not going to release cause of death and then go on to say that he was beaten about the head with bruising and burns and then killed by gunshot.WTH is up with that

That was at the request of the victim's family, who were deeply in shock and weren't ready for any publicity. They had the funeral for Dr. Dyck, and have had some time to grieve and develop, hopefully, some psychological distance.

Perhaps you've never lost a loved one to an extremely violent, senseless murder.

 

[Satchie]

[

There are several references to them buying food in the report, including donuts and candy bars, whose wrappers were found near to where Leonard Dyck was murdered, and a stop at McDonald's.

Donuts and McDonalds won't get you far when you burn your vehicle and walk off into the bush and have to survive for days on whatever you can physically carry with you.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Now we know his family didn’t even realize LD was the third murder victim until they contacted police on July 23rd based on the drawing.

July 22nd, according to the report.

On August 8th, his sister described his murder “violently and in cold blood”.

That can mean any number of things. A single gunshot wound and nothing else can mean "violently and in cold blood." Running someone over by accident in the course of a robbery can mean "violently and in cold blood." Really anything which falls under the category of a second-degree murder charge can be given that description.

But still for some reason speculation of his possible accidental death seemed to persist in MSM comment sections and on SM in defense if the potential innocence of B&K. Even though by then the suspects were described as “armed and dangerous” and had been charged in LDs murder, 2nd degree which includes the element of Intent to Kill (as opposed to manslaughter).

Second-degree murder also includes accidental death during the course of a robbery (ie. felony murder rule).

No, I don’t think so and so releasing his exact cause of death was less important without mention of other types of cruel violence that was involved as he was not shot once, execution style.

Yes and to avoid those questions and speculations and conspiracy theories, the police could, and IMO should, have just upgraded it to first degree murder. And told the public about the July 17th murder attempt during the August 7th press conference.

I think they had the evidence for first-degree murder long before August 7th because: a) they knew by July 24th the same gun was used in Lucas and Chynna's murders, b) they knew by July 21st -- before the charges were even given and before Professor Dyck was even identified -- that there was an additional failed murder attempt by two people matching Kam and Bryer's description, c) the circumstances of Professor Dyck's death. All of those things put together clearly point to intentional killing spree.

I mean, even a criminology professor said in an article during the manhunt that they thought this wasn't a planned killing spree, Lucas and Chynna's murders were a robbery gone wrong, and Professor Dyck was killed solely for his vehicle. And this guy was far from the only person with a background in criminology who was saying this -- I based my initial opinion on what experts were saying.

That should show you that the police secrecy caused a lot of misconceptions even for people who are experts in the field.

Were B.C. killings planned in advance? Criminologist has doubts

 

[MistyWaters]

SBM

I'm pretty sure it was their plan all along and they said in the videos that's what they were going to do.

From the report: "Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact."

I think Bryer probably had this very specific fantasy for a long time of Kam being the one to kill him. It's really the ultimate expression of their codependency, isn't it?

I’d be very surprised if they were sitting there on the rivers edge in total comfort.

As the full autopsy report wasn’t released and the exact date of their suicide isn’t known, neither do we know the physical condition of each of the two but it probably was not equal. Police said they were trapped between the river and the steep banks and perhaps this was during the several days of rain when clay slopes become as slick as ice. Were either of the two injured, broken bones, wound or bite infections, other illnesses, weak from starvation, suffering from hypothermia? We don’t need to know what condition they were in when they died other than they chose to but a SKS semi-automatic weapon is far from the compact size of a handgun. This could be a reason each wasn’t capable of firing the weapon by their own hand.

 

[MistyWaters]

July 22nd, according to the report.

Yes, you’re right. But still, LDs family had very little time to comprehend their loved one was involved in the tragedy by the time the 2nd degree murder charges were filed and the manhunt was taking place.

 

[Chingaling]

The three murders occurred in BC. The video from Meadow Lake, Sask was released when they were named suspects, after they fled from BC in LDs vehicle. .

If you only just noticed this case, this update of the police investigation is helpful.

RCMP in British Columbia - Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation

Yhank you I been following for a mim but definately don't have all the facts straight,That's why I asked cuz I know there are a lot that know it it inside out.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes and to avoid those questions and speculations and conspiracy theories, the police could, and IMO should, have just upgraded it to first degree murder. And told the public about the July 17th murder attempt during the August 7th press conference.

I think they had the evidence for first-degree murder long before August 7th because: a) they knew by July 24th the same gun was used in Lucas and Chynna's murders, b) they knew by July 21st -- before the charges were even given and before Professor Dyck was even identified -- that there was an additional failed murder attempt by two people matching Kam and Bryer's description, c) the circumstances of Professor Dyck's death. All of those things put together clearly point to intentional killing spree.

I mean, even a criminology professor said in an article during the manhunt that they thought this wasn't a planned killing spree, Lucas and Chynna's murders were a robbery gone wrong, and Professor Dyck was killed solely for his vehicle. And this guy was far from the only person with a background in criminology who was saying this -- I based my initial opinion on what experts were saying.

That should show you that the police secrecy caused a lot of misconceptions even for people who are experts in the field.

Were B.C. killings planned in advance? Criminologist has doubts

The Crown, not the RCMP, files charges and the Court requires sufficient cause to support it. When the charges were filed, nobody could’ve known the accused would later be found dead.

First degree murder charges are never laid just to silence conspiracy theories. For that matter, conspiracy theories circulate regardless. Nor does it matter what a criminology professor who was interviewed by the media thinks since he wasn’t involved in the investigation nor privy to the evidence.

Did you notice my earlier link, on Aug 8th LDs sister told the media her brother died violently and was murdered in cold blood?

 

[Chingaling]

"But before Manitoba, after they killed Deese and Fowler and before killing Dyck, the two did in fact cross the border into the Yukon on July 15, stopping at a gas station. According to police, Schmegelsky had hunted with his father in the area a number of times."

Obviously the reporter meant; "McLeod had hunted with his father in the area..." I suspected Kam had somewhat of a hunting background, but again, I wonder how extensive it was? Was this a yearly tradition he and his Dad did together? Was it something Kam grew out of as he got older? I hunted with my Dad and my brothers from age 12 to 25 and I've never been out with them since. Personally, they were wonderful times but I simply outgrew it. This also got me thinking, Kam's family did indeed have guns. So why did Kam choose to buy his own rather than take one of his Dad's? Did Kam not want anything to come back on the family should he and Bryer get into any trouble? Or did Kam have no access to his Dad's guns? I find that somewhat hard to believe. Surely his Dad could have bought him a gun when he got his gun license? Pardon the projection, but that was what my Dad did when I got my permit at age 12. Same went for my twin brother and younger brother. It must have been Kam wanted nothing to happen to his parents should it all come crashing down.

Those 1975 bullets sounds like something that was taken from somebodies stash.Surely they don't sell those in stores.

 

[FactFinder3000]

[...]

Second-degree murder also includes accidental death during the course of a robbery (ie. felony murder rule).

[...]

No felony in Canada. It's an indictable offence in Canada, and a second degree murder is any murder which isn't first degree.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yhank you I been following for a mim but definately don't have all the facts straight,That's why I asked cuz I know there are a lot that know it it inside out.

You’re welcome. There’s a lot of information in the RCMP Report Overview which wasn’t known by the general public prior to the release last Friday.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I’d be very surprised if they were sitting there on the rivers edge in total comfort.

As the full autopsy report wasn’t released and the exact date of their suicide isn’t known, neither do we know the physical condition of each of the two but it probably was not equal. Police said they were trapped between the river and the steep banks and perhaps this was during the several days of rain when clay slopes become as slick as ice. Were either of the two injured, broken bones, wound or bite infections, other illnesses, weak from starvation, suffering from hypothermia? We don’t need to know what condition they were in when they died other than they chose to but a SKS semi-automatic weapon is far from the compact size of a handgun. This could be a reason each wasn’t capable of firing the weapon by their own hand.

Who knows. But the weird thing is, some of us (me included) predicted when their bodies were first found, based on what we knew of their dynamic, that Kam shot Bryer in an assisted suicide. And given all the other ritualistic preparations for their death, I think it's more likely it was planned this way from the outset, for whatever reason.

The Crown, not the RCMP, files charges and the Court requires sufficient cause to support it. When the charges were filed, nobody knew the accused would be found dead.

First degree murder charges are never laid to silence conspiracy theories. It doesn’t matter what a criminology professor thought because he wasn’t involved in the investigation.

They wouldn't have been charged with first degree murder to silence conspiracy theories. They would have been charged because there was sufficient evidence to support those charges long before August 7th. They were never even charged for Lucas and Chynna's murders at all -- which caused a bunch of theories about how they didn't actually do it and the police had no evidence and the bearded guy in the police sketch did it, etc. -- and now it turns out the police had enough ballistic evidence to say they did it on July 24th. And based on the July 17th attempt, enough evidence to even say it was first-degree.

The point is, the police should ask whether their approach caused more harm than good. Particularly the part about keeping information from Kam and Bryer's families which caused them a lot of distress, as we could tell from the interviews of Bryer's great-uncle and dad (as well as information from other sources that I mentioned earlier). The police have an interest in maintaining public trust. And clearly with this case, a lot of people were thinking "well if you're being so secretive about this, what else do you have to hide?" and devolving into conspiracy theories. And I'm sure the victims' families would have preferred for all those conspiracy theories and accusations of coverups and all that, to not be out there.

All the police had to do was charge them with first-degree murder in all three murders before August 7th, and tell the public in the August 7th press conference about the July 17th attempt, and that would have gotten rid of a lot of the questions. No need to release any gory details about how the victims were killed and all that.

And the point about the criminology professor was just to show just how little information was released to the public compared to what they had, and how that caused a lot of misconceptions.

 

[MistyWaters]

No felony in Canada. It's an indictable offence in Canada, and a second degree murder is any murder which isn't first degree.

Yes, and the RCMP mentioned during the PC they believed the murders were Crimes of Opportunity. That’s contrary to the murder of LD being planned in advance, if instead they noticed a lone man was parked on the side of the road and so they took the opportunity to attack and murder him. Was robbery the motive or was it a convenience to steal his car? Still no evidence indicating which upon the close of the investigation so it can never be known.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/what...-2nd-degree-murder-and-manslaughter-1.5068520
1st-degree murder
Definition: A homicide that is both planned and deliberate. An example of this is a contract killing.

Some homicides are automatically considered first-degree murder:

• The killing of an on-duty police officer or prison employee.
• A killing committed during a hijacking, sexual assault, kidnapping, hostage taking, terrorism, intimidation, criminal harassment. Any offence committed on behalf of a criminal organization.

Sentence: First -degree murder carries an automatic life sentence with no possibility of parole for 25 years.

2nd-degree murder
Definition: Generally, a deliberate killing that occurs without planning and does not fall under any of the categories of first degree murder.

Sentence: The minimum sentence is life in prison with no parole for 10 years, but sentences can be as long as life in prison without parole for 25 years.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Yes, and the RCMP mentioned during the PC they believed the murders were Crimes of Opportunity. That’s contrary to the murder of LD being planned in advance, if instead they noticed a lone man was parked on the side of the road and so they took the opportunity to attack and murder him. Was robbery the motive or was it a convenience to steal his car? Still no evidence indicating which upon the close of the investigation so it can never be known.

I mean...the manner of death and the other evidence about the other murders and attempted murder, clearly indicates this was a killing spree and the motive was rage/power.

It was a crime of opportunity but only in the sense of "we want to kill a random person, we don't know who, but if we come across anyone who is parked on the side of the road that's who we're going to kill." By July 24th there was enough evidence to say that's what it was.

If "crimes of opportunity" couldn't be charged as first-degree, then Ted Bundy would only have ever been charged with second-degree murder too, because he just killed whoever came along and decided to go to his car under the pretense of helping him or whatever.

 

[raffielle]

Just my thoughts on their thinking. They thought it was some type of game. The MO was to approach unsuspecting possibly sleeping drivers in remote areas and hunt them. I think LF & CD they approached the van seen that they were inside and shot out the back window so they would panic and come out and then picked them off. They tried a similar MO with someone who was smart enough to get the hell outta there. With LD the thrill of just shooting someone wasn't enough, it happened too quick. I think LD posed less of a threat to them as opposed to 2 people one LF fairly big and fit and they toyed with LD mentally and physically before delivering he final blow. I believe all victims sustain a similar gunshot wound. I also, believe that KM left his ID car on purpose at the dease lake site- they wanted people to know they did it. I also think they told their friend they did it (who informed the police). I believe they enjoyed this senseless and cruel game and I believe that they bragged on the videos about how "cool" it was. I don't believe they cared who the victims really were - I don't think there was any type of target or revenge against the victims they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and ran across pure evil. I truly hope that they suffered immensely, I hope that their final days were spent in mental, physical and emotional overwhelming pain. My heart breaks for the families involved in this completely horrible, horrible tragedy.

 

[FactFinder3000]

If "crimes of opportunity" couldn't be charged as first-degree, then Ted Bundy would only have ever been charged with second-degree murder too, because he just killed whoever came along and decided to go to his car under the pretense of helping him or whatever.

Ted Bundy was never charged with murder in Canada.

The rules are quite different between USA and Canada.

 

[jaejae]

Here is an article which makes reference this case but is about another Canadian case from 1983. I will post it here rather than starting a separate thread:

Unsolved 1983 murders in Northern B.C. eerily similar to killings that sparked manhunt

Here are a couple of earlier reports about the case:

Police seek new leads in 1983 murder of two German tourists near Chetwynd

30 year old murder near Chetwynd still unsolved - Energeticcity.ca

 

[NJSleuth91]

Ted Bundy was never charged with murder in Canada.

The rules are quite different between USA and Canada.

So in Canada serial killers are charged with second-degree murder if they choose their victims opportunistically? I find that very hard to believe.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ted Bundy was never charged with murder in Canada.

The rules are quite different between USA and Canada.

Yes indeed it’s very different between the two countries and thank goodness Bundy didn’t commit murders in Canada. In 1989 the maximum jail term he’d face here would’ve been 25 years considering all sentencing ran concurrently at that time. He’d have been released from prison by now.

 

[SiciC]

I’d be very surprised if they were sitting there on the rivers edge in total comfort.

As the full autopsy report wasn’t released and the exact date of their suicide isn’t known, neither do we know the physical condition of each of the two but it probably was not equal. Police said they were trapped between the river and the steep banks and perhaps this was during the several days of rain when clay slopes become as slick as ice. Were either of the two injured, broken bones, wound or bite infections, other illnesses, weak from starvation, suffering from hypothermia? We don’t need to know what condition they were in when they died other than they chose to but a SKS semi-automatic weapon is far from the compact size of a handgun. This could be a reason each wasn’t capable of firing the weapon by their own hand.

Sitting exposed beside a river in that area at that time of year... They must have been sick from bugs eating them alive, or drinking parasite contaminated water if they didn't have any clean water..

I've seen a lot of posts on here about them (K and B) not being able to get back up the steep bank and being apparently trapped there. I haven't seen that in any news articles yet, it's easy to miss things when there's so much info though lol. Anyone have a link to where it says that?

If they really were stuck there and ultimately decided to end it there, I think they were probably in bad shape and had to give up. Probably weak, exhausted, starving, dehydrated, sick, delirious.. All things that would make getting back up a steep slippery slope especially difficult or impossible.

 

[MistyWaters]

So in Canada serial killers are charged with second-degree murder if they choose their victims opportunistically? I find that very hard to believe.

It depends whether or not the victims are random versus intentionally chosen so it can be proven their murder was preplanned. Picton is an example of how it was proven he selected his victims and brought them to his pig farm. Otherwise Canada is not a country predominately associated with serial killers and our overall murder rate is about 1/3rd of the US iirc.

I’ve noticed nothing to suggest B&K fit the classic definition of serial killers either. Regardless, as they are dead they will never be tried. Had they not chosen to die by suicide, had they instead plead not guilty, their statements to police or defence would’ve provided more information. As it stands, it’s pretty much a guessing game IMO.