CANADA - shooter in RCMP vehicle & uniform, 22 killed (plus perp), Portapique, NS, 18 April 2020 #3

[ilovewings]

The Fifth Estate documentary was so painful to watch on so many levels. My heart goes out to all of the victim's loved ones.

I had never heard of this horror - I just happened upon the program on the Fifth Estate: OMG-- 22 innocent people dead---- Very painful to watch. So many mistakes were made it is hard to believe. For one, they thought the shooter was dead but he wasn't- he escaped and went on to kill more people.

 

[newguy123]

The timeline in the story was, to me, the best part of it. I am still confused/uncertain about the nurses and a "traffic stop" or not. Seeing the families and hearing their stories, put a true "human face" to the stories. However, after watching this program for answers, all I have are more questions.
So many unknowns.

 

[ilovewings]

The timeline in the story was, to me, the best part of it. I am still confused/uncertain about the nurses and a "traffic stop" or not. Seeing the families and hearing their stories, put a true "human face" to the stories. However, after watching this program for answers, all I have are more questions.
So many unknowns.

Because there are so many unknowns, I think the families continue to suffer.
This was a cluster f---k.

 

[otto]

The image is from the documentary.

I only watched half of the documentary and what is clear is that police did not know that he was posing as an officer, and did not know that there was an alternate exit to the neighbourhood, until at least 10 hours later. They did not know that he had a fourth car, and believed that all vehicles were accounted for. RCMP and local police did not have a coordinated communication system, which is normal across Canada.

The community was warned that there was an armed and dangerous active shooter in the rural area the following morning, yet they hoped that they would not encounter him. It was obviously a very chaotic situation once officers realized that the suspect was alive and posing as an officer the following morning, and within a couple of hours of learning more facts, the suspect was stopped.

 

[otto]

Because there are so many unknowns, I think the families continue to suffer.
This was a cluster f---k.

The families are angry with the man who held grudges for years, had mental health issues and went on a shooting spree. He's no longer alive, but they want to hold someone responsible for their loss.

If Russell Williams had been killed rather than arrested, people might blame investigators for allowing the panty thief to escalate to confinement/torture and torture/murder. Fortunately they can blame the man who is guilty and sue his wife for compensation.

We know that victims were selected because of a prior relationship with the suspect, and that others were killed because they were witnesses. I doubt that more information about the pursuit of the suspect who also killed an RCMP officer will lead to healing.

 

[casesensitive]

The image is from the documentary.

I only watched half of the documentary and what is clear is that police did not know that he was posing as an officer, and did not know that there was an alternate exit to the neighbourhood, until at least 10 hours later.
View attachment 273220

rsbm

Police knew Saturday night at 10:30 that it was GW and that he was in a replica police car, as reported to them by a neighbour who was shot but escaped. This critical information of a mass killer driving a replica RCMP squad car was never relayed to the public in their tweets.


In the statement, he describes telling the RCMP about being shot by Wortman in a mock-RCMP vehicle — information the RCMP didn't share with the public until more than 12 hours after they'd received it.
Around 10:26, he encountered the first RCMP officer on scene. His account was confirmed in a summary of his police statement contained in search warrant documents CBC and other media organizations obtained in court.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/nova-scotia-shooting-13-deadly-hours

 

[newguy123]

It was around 10:30 on the Saturday night when a shooting victim reported to the police that a man whom he believed to be GW shot at him from what looked like a police cruiser. He had seen it twice, once on his way down Orchard Beach Road, and again as he turned around and went back up, where the shooting occurred. He also had a witness, his wife, in the car.
I can see the police finding it hard to believe, but they had two eye witnesses, one with a gunshot wound, telling them this within minutes of their arrival.
Since they reported seeing the cruiser at the Gulenchyn house, and the police at the scene would know none of their vehicles were there, this should have had a larger impact on events I would think.​

 

[otto]

rsbm

Police knew Saturday night at 10:30 that it was GW and that he was in a replica police car, as reported to them by a neighbour who was shot but escaped. This critical information of a mass killer driving a replica RCMP squad car was never relayed to the public in their tweets.


In the statement, he describes telling the RCMP about being shot by Wortman in a mock-RCMP vehicle — information the RCMP didn't share with the public until more than 12 hours after they'd received it.
Around 10:26, he encountered the first RCMP officer on scene. His account was confirmed in a summary of his police statement contained in search warrant documents CBC and other media organizations obtained in court.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/nova-scotia-shooting-13-deadly-hours

It sounds like the issue is that police were told, but could not confirm, that the suspect had an old police car and accounted for all three decommissioned police cars associated with the suspect during the night. This led them to believe that the suspect was probably dead in his burning house.

According to internal bulletins that were circulated to police agencies across the province, by 1 a.m., the RCMP had identified the 51-year-old as a suspect who was "armed and dangerous" and associated him with "an old white police car."

The RCMP spent the night tracking vehicles associated with the gunman, including three decommissioned police cars. They found one white Ford Taurus burning at each of the shooter's properties in Portapique. A third would be located at his business in Dartmouth.

When all three cars had been accounted for, The Fifth Estate has learned the RCMP made a fateful assumption. By dawn, they concluded the gunman must have taken his own life — not an unusual outcome after a violent rampage — and thought they'd find the evidence somewhere in the rubble of his torched properties." (link)
​

Suppose police had released a statement that the suspect was driving a decommissioned police car. Would every sighting of a police car have resulted in a 911 call?

How would the situation be different had the public known that the suspect was disguised as an RCMP officer?

 

[MistyWaters]

I can’t blame the RCMP for believing the perpetrator took his own life inside one of his properties which he’d lit into a raging inferno that night, considering the one police car seen burning as well and no doubt aided by all the gasoline he’d purchased. It’s not as if fire responders could’ve immediately searched the burning structures in an attempt to locate his body.

Unfortunately it wasn’t until the next morning when somebody reported they’d seen a police car driving through a field and this apparently occurred within minutes of the RCMP arriving on the scene. Without that information plus the common law wife still hiding in the forest until the next morning as well, the RCMP were really hampered by not receiving critical and timely information that would’ve made a difference. JMO

 

[newguy123]

I do remember where their known tally of his cars "added up" and they made a reasonable conclusion based on that. What I don't understand is that when the two witnesses encountered the police, it did not seemingly change what the police believed. The witness did say he fled back up Orchard Beach Road and turned right toward the highway, encountering the police there, whereas GW turned left and went down Portapique Beach Road, a supposed dead end.
I can understand why the police would believe all cars were accounted for, but when witnesses come forward during the events, one with a gunshot wound and they both clearly identified it as a "badged" cruiser with lights, it did not seem to alter how the police viewed events.

The accounting for the registered vehicles and supposed suicide does make sense on its own, but the witness testimony should have carried some weight that night.

 

[otto]

I do remember where their known tally of his cars "added up" and they made a reasonable conclusion based on that. What I don't understand is that when the two witnesses encountered the police, it did not seemingly change what the police believed. The witness did say he fled back up Orchard Beach Road and turned right toward the highway, encountering the police there, whereas GW turned left and went down Portapique Beach Road, a supposed dead end.
I can understand why the police would believe all cars were accounted for, but when witnesses come forward during the events, one with a gunshot wound and they both clearly identified it as a "badged" cruiser with lights, it did not seem to alter how the police viewed events.

The accounting for the registered vehicles and supposed suicide does make sense on its own, but the witness testimony should have carried some weight that night.

I think it did carry weight. Police were aware of 3 decommissioned vehicle and they tracked down all three. When all three were accounted for and the suspect's home was burned to the ground, it is reasonable to conclude that he was not driving a decommissioned police vehicle.

The suspect spent months preparing for the night of the murders, the police had to figure it out within a few hours based on incomplete information.

 

[newguy123]

I understand the situation was very "fluid" and they probably had info. coming at them a mile a minute. I am not trying to be argumentative here.
I guess my main concern is that someone in a police uniform, in an apparent police cruiser, just shot at two people, who managed to escape. They report it right away to the police on site, indicating the shooter went down a dead end road. Whether the shooter was GW or someone else, even a rogue police officer, how long did it take the police to send officers down Portapique Beach Road in search of this shooter? That is my concern here. This was fresh info on the scene info and they sat on it.
Perhaps the officers on scene were ordered to await reinforcements, I don't know. Perhaps it is my naive assumption that they would/should pursue this while the trail was fresh. It just seems an opportunity was lost.
I would also add, that while it is easy to say the police should have done this or that, the people of Nova Scotia are lucky it was not me in charge that night or things would have been far worse. I have the benefit of hindsight, and of offering suggestions, not making the actual decisions and sifting thru what info to act on.

 

[MistyWaters]

I understand the situation was very "fluid" and they probably had info. coming at them a mile a minute. I am not trying to be argumentative here.
I guess my main concern is that someone in a police uniform, in an apparent police cruiser, just shot at two people, who managed to escape. They report it right away to the police on site, indicating the shooter went down a dead end road. Whether the shooter was GW or someone else, even a rogue police officer, how long did it take the police to send officers down Portapique Beach Road in search of this shooter? That is my concern here. This was fresh info on the scene info and they sat on it.
Perhaps the officers on scene were ordered to await reinforcements, I don't know. Perhaps it is my naive assumption that they would/should pursue this while the trail was fresh. It just seems an opportunity was lost.
I would also add, that while it is easy to say the police should have done this or that, the people of Nova Scotia are lucky it was not me in charge that night or things would have been far worse. I have the benefit of hindsight, and of offering suggestions, not making the actual decisions and sifting thru what info to act on.

But just imagine the horrific scenario when police arrived on a gun complaint. It wasn’t as if they came upon a lone man who had been shot and the obvious conclusion would’ve been the shooter had fled. What time had lapsed between him getting shot and LE arriving, I don’t think recall but I don’t remember it was immediate. For how it appeared, indications were he could’ve still actively continuing his killing spree and setting houses afire. That’s the problem in examining a situation in hindsight, we draw the conclusion “well they should’ve known” But what we know now, nobody did at the time IMO.


“Responding to a 911 call, police arrived in Portapique at around 10:30 p.m. and came across a man who had been shot. Wortman had opened fire on him from what the victim thought was a police vehicle.

Police flooded into the neighbourhood, finding bodies on the roads and in the houses. While they evacuated residents, they cordoned off an area totalling four square kilometres.”
Nova Scotia shooting: In 13 hours, a trail of victims, some known to the killer, some random

 

[newguy123]

It is my recollection that after the shots were fired, the couple sped back up Orchard Beach road, turned right to "get away" and GW, behind them, turned left. The couple headed up to the highway where they encountered the police.
I'd like to know how soon after this report the police went down this dead end road to investigate and/or pursue this fresh lead. From the safety of my desk chair, it appears it would be a good time to follow this up as one could corner the shooter on a dead end road.

 

[MistyWaters]

It is my recollection that after the shots were fired, the couple sped back up Orchard Beach road, turned right to "get away" and GW, behind them, turned left. The couple headed up to the highway where they encountered the police.
I'd like to know how soon after this report the police went down this dead end road to investigate and/or pursue this fresh lead. From the safety of my desk chair, it appears it would be a good time to follow this up as one could corner the shooter on a dead end road.

I’m not sure of police protocol but in a highly dangerous situation wouldn’t cordoning off an area be what responding officers are trained to do, waiting for the tactical unit to arrive? When the RCMP first arrived on scene they had no way of knowing only a single shooter was involved. If an officer in a squad car had managed to approach the killer, I don’t think that would’ve resulted in a successful arrest as the shooter was equipped with lethal weaponry, it would’ve resulted in even more deaths IMO.

 

[otto]

I understand the situation was very "fluid" and they probably had info. coming at them a mile a minute. I am not trying to be argumentative here.
I guess my main concern is that someone in a police uniform, in an apparent police cruiser, just shot at two people, who managed to escape. They report it right away to the police on site, indicating the shooter went down a dead end road. Whether the shooter was GW or someone else, even a rogue police officer, how long did it take the police to send officers down Portapique Beach Road in search of this shooter? That is my concern here. This was fresh info on the scene info and they sat on it.
Perhaps the officers on scene were ordered to await reinforcements, I don't know. Perhaps it is my naive assumption that they would/should pursue this while the trail was fresh. It just seems an opportunity was lost.
I would also add, that while it is easy to say the police should have done this or that, the people of Nova Scotia are lucky it was not me in charge that night or things would have been far worse. I have the benefit of hindsight, and of offering suggestions, not making the actual decisions and sifting thru what info to act on.

I understand that the family and friends of victims are devastated by the tragedy, but the only person responsible for the deaths is the suspect.

I agree that hindsight is what is driving some dis-satisfaction with the investigation that led to locating and stopping the suspect, but look at the two shooters from Vancouver Island just over a year ago. It took a couple of weeks to find them even though their identities were known, and by the time they were found the shooters had committed suicide. Yesterday there was an arrest based on a murder 40 years ago. Investigators and officers do the best that they can and need to feel valued for putting their lives at risk to protect the public. Going after the RCMP for a job well done, albeit not as quickly as people like, seems counterproductive. The officers lost one of their work family too.

 

[newguy123]

I understand that the family and friends of victims are devastated by the tragedy, but the only person responsible for the deaths is the suspect.
Well said!
I know it is my ignorance of procedures in situations about pursuing the suspect which led to my earlier comments. And I don't mean that as a complaint about the police, just, on the surface, it looks like an opportunity gone. However, there are probably a thousand considerations of which I'm unaware which led for what happened, to happen.
I also know the families are hurting and I don't want to in any way tell them who to blame or what they should feel. Please remind me to be as philosophical about events if this was my family which suffered. One cannot help but feel their pains.

 

[MistyWaters]

I understand that the family and friends of victims are devastated by the tragedy, but the only person responsible for the deaths is the suspect.
Well said!
I know it is my ignorance of procedures in situations about pursuing the suspect which led to my earlier comments. And I don't mean that as a complaint about the police, just, on the surface, it looks like an opportunity gone. However, there are probably a thousand considerations of which I'm unaware which led for what happened, to happen.
I also know the families are hurting and I don't want to in any way tell them who to blame or what they should feel. Please remind me to be as philosophical about events if this was my family which suffered. One cannot help but feel their pains.

Aside from the devastation caused to the families and friends of the victims, something that disturbs me is the mention of the shooter’s hatred of police.

By outfitting himself in a police uniform and driving a replica police car, I’ve no doubt he planned for the confusion and pandemonium that indeed occurred, otherwise he would’ve just dressed in street clothes and drove an ordinary vehicle.

So an extension of that, the way I see it, public blame cast toward the RCMP for his own deliberate and intentional actions further accomplishes his mission, yielding him power even after death and adding to the tragedy.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Tweets from
Elizabeth McSheffrey
@emcsheff (Global Halifax)


“#BREAKING: NS RCMP confirm three people have been charged for provided the Nova Scotia gunman with ammunition used in April's massacre. RCMP say the individuals did NOT have knowledge of the shooter's intentions, or the attack. We'll have more shortly. #NovaScotia”
https://twitter.com/emcsheff/status/1334893570000556033?s=20

“These are the offences: "between the 17th day of March and 18th day of April 2020, unlawfully, transferred ammunition, specifically, .223 caliber Remington cartridges and .40 caliber Smith and Wesson cartridges, contrary to Section 101 of the Criminal Code." #NovaScotia”
https://twitter.com/emcsheff/status/1334896144816742400?s=20

“Charged are: James Blair Banfield, 64-years-old of Sackville, Lisa Diane Banfield, 52-years-old of Dartmouth, Brian Brewster, 60-years-old of Sackville #NovaScotia”
https://twitter.com/emcsheff/status/1334896774339829760?s=20

 

[Errrr]

Whoa! His girlfriend got nailed?