Found Deceased Canada - Thelma Krull, 58, Winnipeg MB, 11 July 2015

[Crosby87]

Good points - I doubt #2, since being able to see clearly is a vital faculty when under attack. It's a good question about sunglasses - I have a pair I wear over/clip on to prescription glasses. In any case, on a sunny summer morning out walking in the open, I'd be wearing sunglasses.

One question I'm curious about is, it appears that the glasses were found by police during an intensive search of the area. It sort of surprises me that they found them - and not some passer-by who turned them into a lost and found. If you're looking for a woman, you'd be able to see from a distance she wasn't in that open area. What lead police to do such an intensive ground search of open fields?

Isn’t the open field where Thelma’s glasses were found where the phone ping was? Weren’t the searchers retracing the route Thelma took? Going over the area with a fine tooth comb, so to speak, looking for clues is how a search is conducted.

 

[Selah84]

Not sure if this has been posted but it made me think of Thelma.
http://www.winnipegsun.com/2015/09/08/sex-assault-at-kildonan-park

 

[longshanks]

Isn’t the open field where Thelma’s glasses were found where the phone ping was? Weren’t the searchers retracing the route Thelma took? Going over the area with a fine tooth comb, so to speak, looking for clues is how a search is conducted.

Well that's just it; see my point about cell phone "pings" earlier. I personally think they only had data that suggested the general area in which her phone was last recorded in, not a highly-accurate position placing a pin on a map.

 

[KMouse]

Pings are not "pins on a map" for sure. Plus cell phone carriers differ so if she was with MTS it would have only given a tower.


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[Crosby87]

Well that's just it; see my point about cell phone "pings" earlier. I personally think they only had data that suggested the general area in which her phone was last recorded in, not a highly-accurate position placing a pin on a map.

If the ping only gives a general area to search in, isn't that why the area her glasses were located in and she was known to walk in explain why an extensive search of the area was conducted?

 

[Satchie]

If the ping only gives a general area to search in, isn't that why the area her glasses were located in and she was known to walk in explain why an extensive search of the area was conducted?

True, but the kind of massive police resources needed to find a pair of glasses on a multi-acre playing field, isn't normally expended for a missing person unless they believe it's a homicide. I can understand they believed it was possibly a homicide AFTER they found the glasses.

My curiosity relates back to the question of whether someone else planted the glasses to mislead police. It doesn't strike me as maybe the best place to put them, that there was a good chance they wouldn't be found or might found by someone who didn't associate them with Thelma. What would be the thinking that would lead someone to put them there and not in a more conspicuous spot like a parking lot?

 

[musicaljoke]

Thanks very much for the welcome! I think I'm really going to enjoy being a member of this site.

A few thoughts on the glasses:

I have no doubt the glasses belong to Thelma Krull; it appears LE would agree with this. Family members would easily be able to identify these and has been stated earlier there's a few other ways they can be conclusively tied to her.

People who wear glasses full time are closely identified with them, to such a degree that when glasses are found separately from the owner it can seem a lot more significant than when other items might be found, always towards the extreme negative end of course.

As a glasses wearer myself, I can think of several situations that could cause me to be separated from them unintentionally:
- I have a separate pair of prescription sunglasses and often carry both pairs with me. When driving or walking outdoors I will often switch to the shades and put my regular glasses into a case and in my pocket or elsewhere. On a couple occasions I've misplaced one pair or another and have had to find them afterwards.
- I'm in my 50's and my eyes have changed a bit over the past few years. I often need to lift my glasses and put them on my head when reading something, despite having progressive lenses. In a few cases I might put them down somewhere, and in a few cases forget where I put them.
- My eyes sometimes get fatigued and I might go a while without wearing my glasses; I can see fairly well without them. I've also temporarily misplaced them under these circumstances.

With these points in consideration, here's a few thoughts to explain the location/circumstances the glasses were found in:

1. While passing through the Toboggan Hill area, Thelma inadvertently dropped her main pair of glasses, possibly due to them falling out of somewhere, or due to misplacing them during a quick break stop. She may not have noticed right away considering my above points. She then disappeared sometime thereafter.

2. She may have intentionally dropped them there; perhaps while under threat from someone and in a desperate hope somebody would find them.

3. The glasses may have been dropped somewhere else nearby and subsequently moved to where they were found (Child? Dog?)

3. They were somehow knocked off her there during an attack/struggle.

4. The glasses were left there under different circumstances.

The whole point here is that we shouldn't necessarily conclude that the "critical event" occurred exactly where the glasses were found, although the area is obviously of concern given the corresponding cellphone data (and possibly other evidence not mentioned by the police). I personally have a lot of doubt that a perp would choose the approximate area of the glasses find for an attack; having been there it's simply too exposed and well-traveled.

I expect that the police have cctv of her in that area, and then no video afterwards of her leaving in any direction. Do you remember police posting cctv images of potential witnesses?

It feels like a professional hit. Did she disappear in a spot where there were no cameras? Was that just luck, or did someone stake out the place. Had she been watched? There is organised crime in Winnipeg.

 

[musicaljoke]

The whole point here is that we shouldn't necessarily conclude that the "critical event" occurred exactly where the glasses were found, although the area is obviously of concern given the corresponding cellphone data (and possibly other evidence not mentioned by the police). I personally have a lot of doubt that a perp would choose the approximate area of the glasses find for an attack; having been there it's simply too exposed and well-traveled.

Welcome to the forum.

I expect that the police have cctv of her in that area, and then no video afterwards of her leaving in any direction. Do you remember police posting cctv images of potential witnesses?

It feels like a professional hit. Did she disappear in a spot where there were no cameras? Was that just luck, or did someone stake out the place. Had she been watched? There is organised crime in Winnipeg.

 

[Arnie M]

Well that's just it; see my point about cell phone "pings" earlier. I personally think they only had data that suggested the general area in which her phone was last recorded in, not a highly-accurate position placing a pin on a map.

The cell phone (continually) uses radio signals (pings) to towers in the area so it knows when a person (phone) is moving toward or away from a tower

How else would the system know how to hand the call to the nearest tower ? It is a low tech signal similar to radio directional finders used in aviation years ago.

Lots of towers in NE Winnipeg , easy to triangulate a location

Map here http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...nipeg-MB-11-July-2015&p=11971908#post11971908

 

[KMouse]

It's not that easy Arnie. The cell can be pinged again to see if the user is on the move but again it depends on the provider and / or the radius.

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[Arnie M]

It's not that easy Arnie. The cell can be pinged again to see if the user is on the move but again it depends on the provider and / or the radius.

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It is not a matter of being "easy" or "hard" . It is automatic. Next time you travel , watch the signal strength bars on your phone . Signal strength continually increases and decreases as you move closer to one tower and move away from another

And in order for your phone to know which one is closest it must know which ones are farther away and it does that by "pinging" (sending radio signals) to any towers in the area.

And this is all done automatically , you do not have to be making a call . When you do make a call the phone already knows where it is in relation to the towers.

And as I said earlier it is a low-tech radio signal that is separate from cellular phone communication signals (which are high-tech and usually scrambled and encrypted and private)

Ancient ship captains could pinpoint their location anywhere on earth by looking at the sun , moon , and stars through a sextant.

 

[longshanks]

Welcome to the forum.

I expect that the police have cctv of her in that area, and then no video afterwards of her leaving in any direction. Do you remember police posting cctv images of potential witnesses?

It feels like a professional hit. Did she disappear in a spot where there were no cameras? Was that just luck, or did someone stake out the place. Had she been watched? There is organised crime in Winnipeg.

Hello, thanks for the welcome.

I'm not sure I would agree that there's video available of Thelma in that area; I think that sort of detail would have been announced since it could aid in figuring this out.

It is clear however that they've been looking at anything they can get there hands on from the time in question. This would include views from cameras nearby with people walking into/away from the area, or some tiny slice of the area itself in the field of view. It's clear a lot of enlargement and likely post-processing had to be used in a couple frames. I don't think they disclosed where the cameras were and that's likely a good idea for a number of reason.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hello, thanks for the welcome.

I'm not sure I would agree that there's video available of Thelma in that area; I think that sort of detail would have been announced since it could aid in figuring this out.

It is clear however that they've been looking at anything they can get there hands on from the time in question. This would include views from cameras nearby with people walking into/away from the area, or some tiny slice of the area itself in the field of view. It's clear a lot of enlargement and likely post-processing had to be used in a couple frames. I don't think they disclosed where the cameras were and that's likely a good idea for a number of reason.

Hi longshanks, and :welcome:

LE has video of the 3 potential witnesses who were in the vicinity, so IMO it is very possible they have video of Thelma in the same area and are not releasing that info to the public to protect their investigation. Could also be how they zeroed in on that area for a search and found her glasses.

I wonder if all 3 folks have come forward.

 

[Sillybilly]

Just a couple of observations ... probably a coinkydink, but Thelma is said to have been wearing black capri style pants and a reddish-orange shirt. Two of the 3 potential joggers are wearing black bottoms and what I consider a reddish-orange top.

Also, I think the 3rd jogger in the white muscle shirt is male based on what appears to be hairy arms and legs? If that person hasn't come forward, they must be easily recognizable to someone based on what I think is a large black tattoo on their upper back / shoulder area.

from cjob.com

http://d2x3wmakafwqf5.cloudfront.ne....dir/107/files/2015/07/photos-of-interest.jpg

 

[KMouse]

It is not a matter of being "easy" or "hard" . It is automatic. Next time you travel , watch the signal strength bars on your phone . Signal strength continually increases and decreases as you move closer to one tower and move away from another

And in order for your phone to know which one is closest it must know which ones are farther away and it does that by "pinging" (sending radio signals) to any towers in the area.

And this is all done automatically , you do not have to be making a call . When you do make a call the phone already knows where it is in relation to the towers.

And as I said earlier it is a low-tech radio signal that is separate from cellular phone communication signals (which are high-tech and usually scrambled and encrypted and private)

Ancient ship captains could pinpoint their location anywhere on earth by looking at the sun , moon , and stars through a sextant.

Cell phone providers are not able to see how near or far somebody is. One provider in this province can tell you what side the phone is pinging from. That's it. The other provider can give you a lat long and a radius that is sometimes quite large. That's all the info they provide.
While you can see the bars on your phone or see info. That some apps provide that info. Is not available to the cell providers.
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[Crosby87]

Update: Posted on Thelma Krull’s Missing facebook page on Saturday at 2:43 pm

“We are still searching for Thelma constantly. We are meeting this Wednesday the 16th at 6:00 pm at MLCC parking lot on Regent across from Canadian Tire. If you want to join us on the search, please message me”.

https://www.facebook.com/Thelma-Krull-Missing-808511069245537/timeline/

 

[Arnie M]

Cell phone providers are not able to see how near or far somebody is. One provider in this province can tell you what side the phone is pinging from. That's it. The other provider can give you a lat long and a radius that is sometimes quite large. That's all the info they provide.
While you can see the bars on your phone or see info. That some apps provide that info. Is not available to the cell providers.
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I am going to kick this cat one more time. It would take 10 pages of technical information to cover it all so here is a simple version.

Keep in mind we are NOT talking about GPS location technology (although some phones have it) . We are talking about simple old school radio signals that have been in use since the 1940's (radar) (directional finders) (aviation)

--- On the top of every cell tower is a 360 degree antenna (covers a full circle of territory)
--- The antenna is comprised of several SEPARATE antennas (called panels) (see picture below)
--- Each of those panels covers only ONE DIRECTION (and it is a fairly "narrow" band , about 1/12th of the circle)
--- the cellular phone system knows WHICH PANEL your phone is using (which direction you are)
--- it knows how CLOSE or FAR away you are (it measures signal strength) (far away is weak , close is strong)
--- JUST THAT ALONE can indicate the general area the phone is (a straight line from the antenna panel)
--- BUT IT ALSO is in touch with the other towers (in case you are moving and it has to hand you over to another tower)
--- now you have SEVERAL straight lines from the towers and WHERE THEY INTERSECT is where you are (fairly accurate)

(stuff they dont tell you) .... phone companies often SELL that information , for example large shopping centers , they can show what area each phone came from as it traveled to the store (market area) (that way they know where to advertise ) .... NO personal or private information is included , it is just an anonymous customer and the route they traveled .... POLICE (with a warrant) can get the personal details ON ONE PHONE if a crime has been committed and THEY ALSO have to pay for it. .... this is a profitable undertaking for the cell companies , they dont do it because they are bored. Nobodies privacy is harmed (unless there is a crime)

2 pictures , one shows the segmented antenna panels , the other the reach and direction and measurement of the signals. Utterly simple technology from 1940

.


.

 

[longshanks]

I am going to kick this cat one more time. It would take 10 pages of technical information to cover it all so here is a simple version.
.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here Arnie. I understand what you're trying to say, I have a lot of experience with various telecommunications and navigation systems.

For one thing, not all cell towers are alike; they're configured specifically for the environment/location they're installed at. While some elements may be directional as you've alluded to, many others are omni-directional providing no "direction finding" possibility. They also have varying numbers of elements on them, not always the 12 in your setup. Some may only have 3 or even less.

How this all works is largely determined by the cell phone in your hand. It is constantly receiving, evaluating signal strengths. Taking any data connection out the equation, and assuming that an active phone conversation isn't taking place the phone will periodically send out a data burst letting the towers know the phone is in the area. This will happen predictably when turning a phone on, but will also happen at other times as well. Factors such as how fast you are moving through an area will determine how often this happens.

You can hear your phone "talking" to the towers by placing phone next to an amplified speaker (like your computer speakers) and eventually you'll hear the data bursts. Note that it doesn't happen all the time.

The "data collection" you refer to is largely done by other means. Your WiFi feature, bluetooth and info uploaded to Google/Apple and others is a lot more precise and useful for that purpose that the location info the Cell companies could provide.

Regards,

longshanks

 

[longshanks]

Hi longshanks, and :welcome:

LE has video of the 3 potential witnesses who were in the vicinity, so IMO it is very possible they have video of Thelma in the same area and are not releasing that info to the public to protect their investigation. Could also be how they zeroed in on that area for a search and found her glasses.

I wonder if all 3 folks have come forward.

Thanks for the welcome! This is a great community of participants.

There seems to be some varying viewpoints on why the police concentrated on the VGCC area. I seem to recall at least one reference specifying that a search team may have found the glasses first; this would certainly amp up the police activity to "11". This seems to jive with my memory regarding media coverage that day; I seem to remember them talking about search teams in the area and then later on the "large police presence".

Regardless, you raise a good point regarding the video; at this stage we can only theorize. Without knowing everything LE knows we wouldn't know why any decisions would be made in this regard. I do find it curious for instance that it wasn't released where the camera was for those image captures.

Having a look at those 3 people again it's tempting to figure out exactly where that is. It's a view that seems to include part of a driveway; the people seem to be crossing the driveway to continue along a sidewalk. Assuming this is somewhere near toboggan hill I see a number of possibilities in several of the streets in the area.

 

[Satchie]

I think the cellphone data that Arnie is talking about may be available live - the problem is, the cell phone companies don't keep records of it, probably no one does, it's just too much data when you consider all the thousands of phones every hour of every day. When police need to go back a week or more in time, not that much data has been preserved.