Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, Oct 2017 #1

[Bodhi]

OMG. I'm shocked he sent out her hospitalized photo. What an #$%! She's not on oxygen and doesnt have an IV. She's hospitalized for psychiatric care. I'm praying her family can deprogram her and save the children. (He probably reprimanded her for showing the skin on her arms. <modsnip>

Does she look like she wants her photo taken, let alone released to AP by her husband? She doesn't look as if she is comforted by his presence or her son's. Her body language is still that of a hostage.

Does it bother anyone that Josh is releasing pictures of minors? Some outlets have blurred their faces. Most do not.

 

[Bodhi]

Photos of his suffering children and hospitalized wife are great publicity before his upcoming book. Don't they have an 3-legged dog which he can also photograph and publish? I hope Caitlan is deprogrammed and her divorce attorney takes all the profits! Someone please rescue her!

I am hoping Caitlan's parents haven't visited because they made a deliberate decision to entice her to come to them, in the US and probably w/o him. The hospitalization makes it more likely they will go to Ontario to be able to see her away from him. And I bet Josh has the whole family camped out there to limit access to her alone. If Josh suspects her parents are coming, she will be out of the hospital before they get there.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Well at one point he says:



http://abcnews.go.com/International...-afghanistan-arrives-canada/story?id=50475090

But also...



http://www.post-gazette.com/news/wo...to-be-rushed-to-hospital/stories/201710170221

So was it a force abortion during pregnancy or was it the murder of a living infant?

I can't believe I'm typing this, but I'd believe the Taliban spokesman before believing Joshua Boyle.

 

[Cryptic]

I don't believe that a living child was murdered. I do believe that there was a miscarriage. Regardless of how many weeks pregnant she was when she miscarried, a miscarriage is not murder.

Deliberately causing a miscarriage can be murder in some U.S. states: http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

Boyle is pretending to be a victim when he claims that his baby was murdered, and I have to ask why a kidnap victim needs to lie and exaggerate being a victim.

Depending on the totality of the circumstances behind the miscarriage (kidnapping, refusal to release, refusal to provide obtainable care), a parent could reasonably conclude that miscarriage was avoidable, or deliberately caused and thus, the child was murdered. As indicated above, U.S. would also support such a claim.

Ironically, Islamic law may well support similar conclusion, and then dictate a harsh punishment. My guess is that anybody kidnapping a woman, then refusing to release her even though they know the child is at risk of dying from a miscarriage would face a very severe punishment in an Islamic court for causing a miscarriage (murder)- unless, of course, the kidnapper is a jihader. Jihaders exempt themselves from Sharia laws pretty often.

 

[Cryptic]

In captivity with an infant with food insecure and conditions volatile and dangerous, I doubt his wife had a lot of time on her hands and wanted to carry and nurse 3 more children.

Some couples use sex for comfort in times of physical and emotional stress. Taliban jihaders might not be big fans of birth control. In fact, they might of already been half inclined to produce yet another beheading video. I dont know if requests for BC would move them down that road or not.

Then factor in the issue of sex. Islamic fundamentalist thinking may well operate along the lines of: Married couples have sex and produce children. If they are not doing so, then they are not truly married. If Caitlan is not married to Johsua, then she is "free" to "marry" one of us.....

Here is another woman forced to "marry" a jihad commander: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayla_Mueller The possibility of such a forced marriage to a single or "single" woman while in Jiahder captivity is not that far fetched.

 

[bears10]

Some couples use sex for comfort in times of physical and emotional stress. Taliban jihaders might not be big fans of birth control. In fact, they might of already been half inclined to produce yet another beheading video. I dont know if requests for BC would move them down that road or not.

Then factor in the issue of sex. Islamic fundamentalist thinking may well operate along the lines of: Married couples have sex and produce children. If they are not doing so, then they are not truly married. If Caitlan is not married to Johsua, then she is "free" to "marry" one of us.....

Here is another woman forced to "marry" a jihad commander: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayla_Mueller The possibility of such a forced marriage to a single or "single" woman while in Jiahder captivity is not that far fetched.

There are other ways to be intimate that will not result in pregnancy.

JB said himself that they had a lot of time on their hands so they decided to start a family (paraphrasing). So I don't think they would have requested BC. I truly don't think they were forced as a couple by the Taliban to have sex. I think if anything, it's more likely the decision to have sex and start a family while living in a dirt hole was that of JB.

 

[Cryptic]

I truly don't think they were forced as a couple by the Taliban to have sex.

I don't think they were forced to have sex either.

I can, however, see a couple held captive by Taliban fighters, concluding that meeting the Taliban definition of being "married" (couple producing children) was a good idea and then deciding on their own to have sexual relations.

Giving Taliban fighters even the remote impression that they were not truly married (again, by Taliban definition) could well have led to the female hostage being deemed "single" and therefore "available" like Kayla Mueller was and then being taken by a Taliban leader. This could then lead to the male being executed as no being no longer truly useful.

 

[keeleydoll]

IMO, Caitlan needed urgent obstetrical care to prevent an imminent miscarriage (uterine cramping and vaginal bleeding), but the kidnappers provided none and she had a miscarriage. Joshua calls this a forced abortion.

I’m guessing their oldest living child is the one she was pregnant with when they went to Afghanistan. Having had several miscarriages myself, even with excellent medical care these things happen. At least once I personally was very lucky not to lose my life or future fertility. It is devastating and heartbreaking but often there is nothing to be done, especially if one has an emergent illness at the time... saving and caring for the mother is what any medical caregiver will opt for even in the best of circumstances.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bears10]

I don't think they were forced to have sex either.

I can, however, see a couple held captive by Taliban fighters, concluding that meeting the Taliban definition of "family" (couple producing children) was a good idea and then deciding on their own to have sexual relations.

Giving Taliban fighters even the remote impression that they were not truly married (by Taliban definition) would not be a good idea. Failure to live as a married couple (again, by Taliban definition) could well have led to the female hostage being deemed "single" and therefore "available". This could then lead to the male being executed.

If that was the case (which IMO is giving JB a lot of credit), then they could have stopped at 1 child. Why did they continue to have two more children?

Not to mention if that was their line of thought, it's still selfish. "let's make sure to save ourselves from execution by bringing innocent children (who never asked to be born) into this hellhole situation to suffer. Hopefully we will be released at some point in their lives and they won't be killed, raped, sold into slavery, etc".

JMO

 

[Cryptic]

If that was the case (which IMO is giving JB a lot of credit), then they could have stopped at 1 child. Why did they continue to have two more children?

Maybe because Taliban marriage definition calls for the continual bearing of children?

Not to mention if that was their line of thought, it's still selfish. "let's make sure to save ourselves from execution by bringing innocent children (who never asked to be born) into this hellhole situation to suffer. Hopefully we will be released at some point in their lives and they won't be killed, raped, sold into slavery, etc".

I"ll refrain from judgement. I have never even seen combat, much less been at risk of staring on a beheading video and having my wife raped. Even John McCain reached a breaking point in a Vietnamese prisoner camp. I don't judge his actions as being "selfish" and I wont judge this couple's actions as "selfish" either.

Though I would like to say that I would be "unselfish", I don't really know what I would do in a similar situation(s).

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

I'm waiting with apprehension and revulsion for Joshua Boyle to inappropriately release photos of his mentally distressed 2-year-old crying or screaming in fear.

(He told a reporter that his child spends a quarter of the day crying or screaming in fear.)

 

[bears10]

Maybe because Taliban marriage definition calls for the continual bearing of children?

I"ll refrain from judgement. I have never even seen combat, much less been at risk of staring on a beheading video and having my wife raped. Even John McCain reached a breaking point in a Vietnamese prisoner camp. I don't judge his actions as being "selfish" and I wont judge this couple's actions as "selfish" either.

Though I would like to say that I would be "unselfish", I don't really know what I would do in a similar situation(s).

Idk, maybe if JB didn't say they decided to start a family bc 1) they had so much time on their hands, 2) they've always wanted to have a lot of kids, and 3) CC wasn't getting any younger... then maybe I could find the decision to have kids unselfish.

I am not making assumptions - these are things JB has said loud and clear during his interviews with the press.

Also do you have a link to the Taliban definition of marriage info? I would be interested in reading more about it, TIA.

 

[K_Z]

Some couples use sex for comfort in times of physical and emotional stress. Taliban jihaders might not be big fans of birth control. In fact, they might of already been half inclined to produce yet another beheading video. I dont know if requests for BC would move them down that road or not.

Then factor in the issue of sex. Islamic fundamentalist thinking may well operate along the lines of: Married couples have sex and produce children. If they are not doing so, then they are not truly married. If Caitlan is not married to Johsua, then she is "free" to "marry" one of us.....

Here is another woman forced to "marry" a jihad commander: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayla_Mueller The possibility of such a forced marriage to a single or "single" woman while in Jiahder captivity is not that far fetched.

BBM. Apparently, ISIS jihadis have no problem at all with birth control, and frequently force it on women they imprison and enslave.

That is both revolting and perplexing, in the framework of this particular case.

Taliban soldiers force captive women (sex slaves) to take oral birth control pills, or forced depo provera injections. This is because if a woman becomes pregnant, an obscure islamic scripture says they cannot have sex with her. Preventing pregnancy with forced contraception allows them to rape the women more often.

They are also forced to convert to Islam, and an article below describes the Yazidi women being taken before an islamic cleric to validate their conversion, and establish their status as a "lawful" sex slave for the ISIS fighters.

One of 37 former sex slaves interviewed by the New York Times said: “Every day, I had to swallow one in front of him. He gave me one box per month.

"When I ran out, he replaced it. When I was sold from one man to another, the box of pills came with me."

When some slaves were sold between fighters, their owners provided the box of birth control as proof they were not pregnant.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-they-can-continue-to-rape-them-a6928546.html

To keep the sex trade running, ISIS fighters are aggressively forcing birth control on their victims so they won’t get pregnant as they are raped repeatedly while being passed among them, the New York Times reported Saturday.

The paper said more than three dozen Yazidi women who recently escaped ISIS captivity described in interviews the numerous methods the militants used to avoid pregnancy, including oral and injectable contraception and sometimes both.

In at least one case, a woman was forced to have an abortion in order to make her available for sex and others were pressured to do so, the Times reported.

In its warped view, ISIS believes it’s okay for a man to rape a woman he enslaves, but it is not okay to rape a woman he enslaves who is pregnant, according to the paper.

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle...m/news-story/089f906e8b5a6aa8b8f337db6821b9f7

NYT article:

To Maintain Supply of Sex Slaves, ISIS Pushes Birth Control

Some described how they knew they were about to be sold when they were driven to a hospital to give a urine sample to be tested for the hCG hormone, whose presence indicates pregnancy. They awaited their results with apprehension: A positive test would mean they were carrying their abuser’s child; a negative result would allow Islamic State fighters to continue raping them.

The rules have not been universally followed, with many women describing being assaulted by men who were either ignorant of the injunction or defiant of it. But over all, the methodical use of birth control during at least some of the women’s captivity explains what doctors caring for recent escapees observed: Of the more than 700 rape victims from the Yazidi ethnic group who have sought treatment so far at a United Nations-backed clinic in northern Iraq, just 5 percent became pregnant during their enslavement, according to Dr. Nagham Nawzat, the gynecologist carrying out the examinations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/...-of-sex-slaves-isis-pushes-birth-control.html

BBM

Caitlan's situation obviously doesn't fit the same pattern as the young Yazidi women. But it appears that there was no desire on the part of their captors to prevent her repeated pregnancies, regardless of who biologically fathered her children. I don't think her consent, or lack of consent, to intercourse and repeated pregnancies was a concern to either her husband, or her captors. IMO, she had no choice. I have no doubt that if her ISIS jihadi captors wanted to put Caitlan on birth control, they would have been willing and able to do that.

This whole situation is a very perplexing picture of "why", on so many levels. The circumstances of how and why the couple went to Afghanistan remind me a lot of the Roxana Saberi debacle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxana_Saberi

 

[Cryptic]

BBM. Apparently, ISIS jihadis have no problem at all with birth control, and frequently force it on women they imprison and enslave.

ISIS jihadis, like terror groups everywhere, tend bend the rules alot when it is in their personal interest to do so. ISIS also excuses their members from punishments regarding alcohol, drugs and extra marital sex.

In the end, the Taliban / ISIS response to a prisoner asking for BC, alcohol, western movies etc. could be very different than when one of their own members wants that same thing. After all stressed out Jihadis need to uhhmmmm.... "blow off steam", and Koranic teachings do say that Jihadis are exempt at least some rules.... .

 

[Inthedetails]

BBM. Apparently, ISIS jihadis have no problem at all with birth control, and frequently force it on women they imprison and enslave.

That is both revolting and perplexing, in the framework of this particular case.

Taliban soldiers force captive women (sex slaves) to take oral birth control pills, or forced depo provera injections. This is because if a woman becomes pregnant, an obscure islamic scripture says they cannot have sex with her. Preventing pregnancy with forced contraception allows them to rape the women more often.

They are also forced to convert to Islam, and an article below describes the Yazidi women being taken before an islamic cleric to validate their conversion, and establish their status as a "lawful" sex slave for the ISIS fighters.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-they-can-continue-to-rape-them-a6928546.html



http://www.news.com.au/world/middle...m/news-story/089f906e8b5a6aa8b8f337db6821b9f7

NYT article:





https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/...-of-sex-slaves-isis-pushes-birth-control.html

BBM

Caitlan's situation obviously doesn't fit the same pattern as the young Yazidi women. But it appears that there was no desire on the part of their captors to prevent her repeated pregnancies, regardless of who biologically fathered her children. I don't think her consent, or lack of consent, to intercourse and repeated pregnancies was a concern to either her husband, or her captors. IMO, she had no choice. I have no doubt that if her ISIS jihadi captors wanted to put Caitlan on birth control, they would have been willing and able to do that.

This whole situation is a very perplexing picture of "why", on so many levels. The circumstances of how and why the couple went to Afghanistan remind me a lot of the Roxana Saberi debacle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxana_Saberi

Maybe they (the couple) wanted her to stay pregnant as much as possible in the hopes she wouldn't be raped??

Grasping at straws to make sense of the decision to have children in captivity.

jmopinion, speculation, guesswork

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

so hard to sit on my hands here but I'm trying.

Knowing there is usually some truth in every lie, I am picking apart some of the details that have been reported by this man, and deciding what kernels of truth we might have already heard unknowingly.

I am not even sure what to hope for at this point. :shrug:

 

[Jennifer17]

I wonder why she is still wearing a head covering?

 

[Cryptic]

Also do you have a link to the Taliban definition of marriage info? I would be interested in reading more about it, TIA.

I don't have such a link. But, this material maybe a safe start: http://www.islamawareness.net/Marriage/marriage_article001.html I would also recommend adding an even more conservative slant to it.

 

[bluesneakers]

I don't have such a definition. But, this material maybe a safe start: http://www.islamawareness.net/Marriage/marriage_article001.html

Who runs that site? It looks personal and amateurish. Probably not the best place to start JMO.

 

[Cryptic]

Who runs that site? It looks personal and amateurish. Probably not the best place to start JMO.

Not all terror groups are into producing professional, well thought out dogma. Instead, their beliefs are often related in an amateur way with a very personal twist.

So yes, a conservative Islamic interpretation of marriage presented in a personal, amateurish was may well be an accurate presentation of Taliban views on Islamic marriage.