Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, Oct 2017 #1

[waschbaer]

From the start I have been skeptical of the claim that the kidnappers gave her estrogen to induce an abortion.

1. Estrogen is at best a hit or miss way of inducing an abortion. Massive doses can do it sometimes, but it really isn't a thing that is done because again, hit or miss.

2. There are much more reliable ways of inducing an abortion chemically, particularly mifepristone, ie "RU486" which is commonly available throughout the world in generic forms. It's hard to believe a bunch of male bandits would have huge stocks of estrogen on hand (what, for their hot flashes?) but were unable to acquire one single dose of RU486 or a similar drug.

3. If you don't care about keeping things neater and safer for the patient, which male bandits typically do not, there are a zillion other ways to induce an abortion that are much more likely to work than estrogen, and which are cheaper and easier to find. Use your imagination. If they had no moral compunctions about raping her in front of her children, they would likely have had even fewer about giving her various potions, poisons, beatings, and other mistreatment.

4. How did they know it was estrogen? Did the kidnappers twirl their mustaches and cackle "HAHAHA! I have poisoned your food with ESTROGEN!"? If not, it is impossible for them to know that is what happened. And Boyle is always very specific about that allegation. It's odd because it's not even a good guess about how they might have done it. First guess would be that they slipped her RU486, or shot her with pitocin, or something like that.

I think it's much more likely that she suffered a natural miscarriage, probably due to their deplorable living conditions and lack of medical care, and he gaslit her into believing this contrived story.

 

[RickshawFan]

IMO, Josh (who believes he is righteous in Islam) assaulted his wife and kids because Islam permits and encourages husbands to beat children and wives to "correct" their behavior.

I think we need to be careful about stereotyping. JB is likely to be an abuser because he’s an abuser. Assault predisposition may be exactly why he decided he’d like to be a terrorist, perhaps believing there he could get away with being in a rage and controlling about everything.

But let’s not fall into what might have been JB’s fantasy and assume that muslims/tribal folk/terrorists think it’s okay to treat their own that way, beat up family. As in western countries, abusive men are abusive men. This is different from, and I’m extrapolating, “all muslim terrorist men think it’s okay to beat their wives and kids”. In fact, the stan clan might have thought JB abhorrent because of the way he treated his wife and kids. They may have kicked the family out to protect the wife and kids.

Finally, Islam doesn’t permit and encourage husbands to beat family members any more than other religions do, including Christianity. Let’s not fall into a trap of stereotyping by religion. Personally, I have felt way safer and more respected in muslim countries than in the US.

 

[Jennifer17]

I think we need to be careful about stereotyping. JB is likely to be an abuser because he’s an abuser. Assault predisposition may be exactly why he decided he’d like to be a terrorist, perhaps believing there he could get away with being in a rage and controlling about everything.

But let’s not fall into what might have been JB’s fantasy and assume that muslims/tribal folk/terrorists think it’s okay to treat their own that way, beat up family. As in western countries, abusive men are abusive men. This is different from, and I’m extrapolating, “all muslim terrorist men think it’s okay to beat their wives and kids”. In fact, the stan clan might have thought JB abhorrent because of the way he treated his wife and kids. They may have kicked the family out to protect the wife and kids.

Finally, Islam doesn’t permit and encourage husbands to beat family members any more than other religions do, including Christianity. Let’s not fall into a trap of stereotyping by religion. Personally, I have felt way safer and more respected in muslim countries than in the US.

Yes, this. Plenty of wife beating goes on in the west, and no one declares it is something that western men do. When a western man beats his wife or any other woman to death, there is no big outcry. And it happens often.
When a Muslim man does it, it is because he is a Muslim, not that he is the common denominator in these cases.

 

[dizzychick]

This psychologist wants readers to believe Josh’s criminal behavior should be excused because Josh MUST re-enact his trauma. That’s crap. Caitlan has chosen to not re-enact her trauma by assaulting her children, uttering physical threats, committing sexual assault, and holding people against their will (kidnapping). IMO, Josh (who believes he is righteous in Islam) assaulted his wife and kids because Islam permits and encourages husbands to beat children and wives to "correct" their behavior.

what would our country be like if every World War 2 and Viet Nam vet came home and re-enacted the horrific acts they witnessed? this beats" the devil made me do it "excuse hands down

 

[human]

Just a little taste of Bible verses and killing of women and children.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6120373/Top-10-worst-Bible-passages.html

 

[Jennifer17]

Read this for yourself. There is nothing like this (permission or endorsement to assault a wife) in any religion except Islam. Remember that Josh considers himself a pious (his words) Muslim. I could post a dozen verses from the Quran on beating children, but I'm too sleepy.

Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them;

Quran (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."


Sahib Bukhara (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged him to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.


Sahib Bukhara (72:715) "Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'" Muhammad's own wife complained Muslim women were abused worse than other women.


Sahib Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."


Sahib Muslim (9:3506) - Muhammad's fathers-in-law (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him.


Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, the Prophet gave permission to beat them.”


Abu Dawud (2142)- "The Prophet said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."


Abu Dawud (2126) - "A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. The Prophet said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her’"


Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 969 - Requires that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beat lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others.”


Kash-shaf of al-Zamkhshari (Vol. 1, p.525) - [Muhammad said] "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it"

And read the first testament and you can pretty much read the same, sick stuff. And not much different than slaves were treated in the US, but hey..............those Muslims are terrible, aren't they? They took slaves? Who would have though that? Shame on them.

 

[RickshawFan]

I don’t want to use “reply with quote” on such a long post....

No need to reference the Koran at length. Religious texts are pointed to as evidence for all kinds of behaviors, both by practitioners and critics.

For instance, there are many sects in the US that cite religious texts in doing the very same thing to women and children. But most people who subscribe to those same religious texts do not feel permitted or encouraged to do likewise.

IMO stereotyping gets in the way of thinking critically about a problem and getting insights. It gets in the way of understanding. Any kind of stereotyping.

I think something else that’s fundamental is being missed here. Warriors (think, motorcycle gangs, cannibals, Homeric heroes) may have a code that it’s de rigueur to be violent against others not in the clan/tribe/village but they can be very protective of their own families. Everywhere is different. I would not think it unlikely that a warrior code like that might exist in Afgahn mountains. I’m suggesting we be open to this idea in trying to figure out the Boyles’ situation.

 

[SybilMoss]

While being "held", Joshua's sisters wrote about exchanging letters and sending care packages to Joshua. This, along with the lack of any type of randsom demand was something that experts had flagged even then as highly unusual. At the time there was significant chatter about Joshua possibly being a CSIS agent or a member of the Human Intelligence Company (Forces Intelligence in Afghanistan) - however his public statements since arriving back in Canada make it pretty clear he is no James Bond.

https://www.thestar.com/news/insigh...e-describe-being-hostage-to-helplessness.html

 

[nuff]

I need to apologize for my post earlier about the Canadian Government and how they handled the Karla Holmoka Paul Bernardo case. I had forgotten the DA cut a deal with Karla to testify against Bernando just like we would have done here in the good ole USA. The cops found tapes of Karla participating willingly in the rape and murder of her sister. It was too late after the DA was shown these tapes they had already made the deal with Karla for a 12 year sentence. This was not their fault and they stood by their deal for the short sentence.

This off-topic, but just to be clear: the cops did not "find the tapes". They were in the possession of Bernardo's then-lawyer, after PB told him where to find them. By the time they were turned over to the police and the Crown, Karla's deal had been made.

 

[nuff]

http://www.cbc.ca/1.4472099

Article on Trudeau's meeting with them. Interesting that it was the family, presumably JB, who posted the photos online, not the PM's office.

 

[yurena]

Let's just hope police forces or whoever is dealing with this at present finally finds out the real reason this man & his family went to Afghanistan. I am sick of his lies. And even sicker that he is using his "traumatic experience" as an excuse for the sexual assault charge.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Just a little taste of Bible verses and killing of women and children.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6120373/Top-10-worst-Bible-passages.html

You're unknowledgeable about the Holy Bible and therefore, incorrect. The Psalm that states "dash your little ones (it does not say "dash your children") against the rocks" is a metaphor for ending your less heinous sins, not killing children. The Psalms are about praising and worshipping God. Repentance and contrition for sins is involved in true worship of God.

There are only two verses in the Bible endorsing husbands to assault their wives and children. One is "spare the rod; spoil the child. The second states if a woman enters a fight between two males to help her husband and grabs the genitals of her husband's opposition, her hands can be cut off. Nowhere in the Holy Bible does it promote beating your wife into submission. The Quran does promote this as I have proven above. Josh has stated repeatedly that ``he is a devout Muslim". That's why I think he assaulted his wife, not because he was subconsciously re-enacting his hostage trauma.

 

[dizzychick]

This off-topic, but just to be clear: the cops did not "find the tapes". They were in the possession of Bernardo's then-lawyer, after PB told him where to find them. By the time they were turned over to the police and the Crown, Karla's deal had been made.

I could be wrong on this I dunno why my memory of this was someone tipped off the cops about the tapes, they were in the attic maybe, im thinking it had to be Karla however she is quite cunning so I could not imagine her leading the cops to this evidence as she was in one video where she was clearly and willingly assualting her own sister. Did we ever find out just how those tapes were discovered. You are saying the defense lawyer had them? I do not remember that but this is my dizzy brain I was so blessed to have lol

 

[SybilMoss]

Macleans just published an interesting interview (pre-arrest) with Boyle:

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/what-really-happened-to-joshua-boyle-and-his-family/

 

[flourish]

I need to apologize for my post earlier about the Canadian Government and how they handled the Karla Holmoka Paul Bernardo case. I had forgotten the DA cut a deal with Karla to testify against Bernando just like we would have done here in the good ole USA. The cops found tapes of Karla participating willingly in the rape and murder of her sister. It was too late after the DA was shown these tapes they had already made the deal with Karla for a 12 year sentence. This was not their fault and they stood by their deal for the short sentence.

It was not too late. Part of the deal was she be transparent and forthcoming about all their crimes, and yet she failed to mention Jane Doe, a girl she had personally drugged and then raped with Paul. The crown could have gotten her, they just didn't. Source is Stephen Williams' books.

 

[Intermezzo]

http://www.cbc.ca/1.4472099

Article on Trudeau's meeting with them. Interesting that it was the family, presumably JB, who posted the photos online, not the PM's office.

Correct.
The PMO's office did not release the photos Joshua Boyle tweeted about the meeting and posted the photos.
Since the meeting became public the PM has been blasted for meeting with Boyle and what he and his office knew in regards to the active investigation into Boyle

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/ch...mily/wcm/5855ddc4-8635-43d8-a6ab-23acf5d43e83

 

[Intermezzo]

Macleans just published an interesting interview (pre-arrest) with Boyle:

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/what-really-happened-to-joshua-boyle-and-his-family/

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/what-really-happened-to-joshua-boyle-and-his-family/

Good article

So they left the grandparents home in Smith Falls and went to stay, briefly, in a hotel close to Parliament Hill before finding an apartment because they were all in the same room together and it was intolerable.

They had recently left the Boyles’ family home in Smiths Falls, Ont., where they stayed after arriving in Canada on Oct. 14. “We were stuck in one room there for the five of us,” Boyle explained. “It was intolerable.”

In a week of meetings with Maclean’s before his arrest, signs of Boyle’s controlling nature and distress were evident. During interviews at the hotel, he refused to leave the room while Coleman spoke, at one point snapping at her when she responded to a follow-up question. “Check with me before you say any of that on the recording.”

 

[Gardenista]

Macleans just published an interesting interview (pre-arrest) with Boyle:

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/what-really-happened-to-joshua-boyle-and-his-family/

He's a master manipulator, can't believe anything he says

 

[Jealoushe]

Apologies if this Twitter account was already posted up thread, he has several postings through 12/29
The Boyle Family @theBoylesVstheWorld

Looks like its gone now

 

[Intermezzo]

Again, in this article
http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/what-really-happened-to-joshua-boyle-and-his-family/

JB recalls that they were told their ordeal would not last longer than 5 years...so was it a rescue or not?

"...Those pressures appear to have gained some traction in the summer of 2017. Yusufzai believes the turning point was Aug. 21, when U.S. President Donald Trump made his Afghanistan strategy speech.Shortly after that, Boyle and Coleman received a visit from a man they had met before, someone they both refer to as representing “those who control the Haqqani network” (i.e. the ISI).
The man had a message for them: “Your detention will not last longer than five years.”