Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1

[AutomaticAuttie]

We actually know very, very little about KC or her family at this point. A caricature has been created in the media, mainly due to a lack of information and the mysteries of this case, and the supposition that KC must be lying and then the speculation over "how could someone lie like that!" Then from there, the speculation springboards from that to what must the family be like, etc, etc. It's just amazing the diagnoses that have been offered over and over again in the media by professionals WHO HAVE NEVER EVEN MET KC ANTHONY MUCH LESS TESTED OR ASSESSED HER MEDICALLY OR PSYCHOLOGICALLY. This is highly unprofessional and unethical.

KC's mother and uncle have claimed that she is a psychopath/sociopath due to the theft of family money. She may also have stolen from AH. We still don't actually know all the circumstances relating to these money matters or what the truth is. If KC did actually steal this money from others she has a serious problem. Stealing can have many causes. Deprivations during childhood, lack of control in one's own life and a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness, it can be an addictive sort of compulsion that gives the thief an endorphin rush, it can be a compulsion akin to an eating disorder to momentarily alleviates misery and feelings of worthlessness, or it can be stealing for purely practical reasons, i.e., not having what one needs and not having the preparation, knowledge, or training to know how to go about pursuing those things in the proper fashion. Some young single parents are in a catch-22 situation financially where they are simultaneously responsible for the babysitting of the child while at the same time needing to assume financial responsibility for the child by working. It can be tricky and hard for the young, unprepared, parent with no GED yet to know how to get into the work world properly and earn enough to support themself and a child, while at the same time trying to make appropriate care arrangements for the child, unless they have a lot of help and support.
Some might resort to stealing if they are in a kind of crisis over this situation. You never know. Some kids learn to steal when parents are physically absent a lot, or when parents suffer from substance abuse and are mentally absent a lot, and kids actually need money to get what they need themselves.

LYING: Compulsive lying is known to develop in children who live in constant fear of punishment. That's one well-known developmental cause. Compulsive liars lie because they actually feel safer when they are lying than when they are telling the truth. They don't know how to simply tell the truth, they have no expectation of fairness from others. The punishment they grew up fearing may not necessarily have been from the parents. When they lie they subconsciously feel relieved to be avoiding a punishment they feel they would receive if they told the truth; they may simultaneously enjoy and find comfort in the false reality created in their lies.

Some children grow up not being allowed to tell the truth. For example, children who are molested may be told outright not to tell the truth by their abuser, or they may feel that they will be rejected by a parent or other loved one if they tell the truth. These can be at the root of lying, as can the unworthiness they feel as a result of the abuse they've suffered. Children who are harmed rather than protected by adults experience a complete erosion of trust.

Some children are actually raised in a lying culture, in which inaccuracies are tolerated or even encouraged. In some subcultures, kids are actually trained to deceive people outside of the family or social group. In some families, kids simply are lied to a lot and never learn a culture of truth. In some cultures, embellishing, exaggerating and story-telling are not seen as lying, in some cultures they are.

So there are lots of reasons kids can grow up with a lying problem that can continue into adulthood. Lying can be innocent or can be pathological. It can be conscious or not.

It is beginning to be recognized that lying may also have biological contributors, that genes causing particular chemical processes may predispose a person to lying. Whether for physical/chemical reasons or deeply engrained emotional reasons, some liars don't realize they are lying at the moment they lie, but may recognize it afterward and be deeply embarrassed. They may lie more and more to conceal the original lies. It's an emotionally painful, humiliating, and stressful condition. Other liars never face the reality that they are lying, for them, their tall tales take on a life of their own that they find comfort in, bordering on delusional belief or full-fledged delusional thinking.

Brain injuries can contribute to many mental illnesses and behaviors that fall outside of the societal norm, including lying. Brains can obviously be injured by chemicals, by disease, by physical trauma, and other causes.

So far, (a) we don't actually know whether or to what extent KCA is lying or isn't lying. We don't know what happened. Wait until a court case to find out what the actual evidence turns out to be.

(b) if she is lying, we don't yet know the cause, whether there is an organic brain disorder, a chemical dependancy problem, a learned behavior, whether she believes the alleged lies and is delusional, whether she is suffering from shock or emotional trauma which has disconnected her from reality, whether she might suffer from a seizure disorder that has caused her to miss or forget things that have happened (she was allegedly taken to the hospital once by a friend due to a seizure). There could be anything going on medically or otherwise that we simply don't know about.

(c) There is NO evidence so far in this case that KC had any MOTIVE to harm her child or any desire to do so. There is no history of her being hostile toward her child or harmful toward her child. On the contrary, every single person interviewed who knew her said she was a doting and affectionate mother. The caricature created in the media of the KC who wanted to be rid of her daughter may be completely off the mark. The fact is, if KC had actually wanted to be rid of her daughter, she always knew that her mother would gladly take the child. KC said this to the police, and it is completely logical and appears to be true.

This persona created in the media of this cold blooded psychopathic murderer may be completely wrong. It has been very shocking to see how KCA has been demonized/vilified in the media, when the facts in this case are still not known, much less her mental state, how much of what she has been saying is true or untrue, her reason for not being forthcoming, etc. There could be many reasons why she would feel unable to tell the police where Caylee is, one possibility is that she is guilty of harming Caylee, another possibility is that she is guilty of something else that she doesn't want revealed, she could be covering for a boyfriend or friend(s), or, she could actually know (or believe) that Caylee is alive and well. We don't know yet.

Great post!

 

[seagull65]

thank you Automatic Auttie, sorry I crammed so much into one post there. Have a good night

 

[softsoul]

I haven' t seen anyone attempt to offer a medical opinion on Casey, they have offered opinions. Their opinions in this situation will not affect any medical treatment Casey may receive. If you consider the amount of info a therapist normally has prior to offering a medical opinion/diagnosis you would have to admit that it is usually very limited and skewed by the person presenting in a guarded manner. I'm not advocating making diagnosis via media, just highlighting that I do believe there is enough information for people to have opinions on Casey's psychological profile without being unethical or unprofessional.

There are a million reasons a person may act in a certain way. However, most people tend to base their opinions on the most reliable information. There is absolutely no evidence of kidnappers or that Casey is in fear for Caylee. Her own attorney states that it is in Casey's, not Caylee's, best interest for her not to share information.

Whatever may motivate a person to lie, steal or harm others is one thing...their response to such behavior is another. The apparent lack of remorse for these behaviors speaks volumes. The pervasiveness of the behavior does as well. Casey chose to lie about having a job instead of actually finding one. That isn't the behavior of someone who is attempting to take responsibility for herself or her child. This was a conscious decision she made about something well within her control.

It isn't a giant leap or pulling things out of thin air for someone to have the opinion that Casey is a sociopath/psychopath. There are many, many behaviors that may lead someone to that belief. It also isn't far-fetched to think that she harmed her child. That is a very reasonable, logical belief based upon the known facts of the case. Could this belief be wrong? Certainly and evidence presented in the courtroom may show as much.

People need to understand things and will seek out information to make sense of events. This is how we learn. If information comes along that disproves our understanding then we learn some more. Otherwise we'd still believe the world is flat. So I guess my point is that having an opinion based on reason isn't "wrong" although it may be proven wrong. If we were prescribing Casey medication or sentencing her to prison then we would be obligated to make sure we have all the information possible. However, to my knowledge no one here or in the media is doing this.

 

[yolorado]

Very good post, very respectfully snipped.

There is absolutely no evidence of kidnappers or that Casey is in fear for Caylee. Her own attorney states that it is in Casey's, not Caylee's, best interest for her not to share information.

Yep, and the ball is in KC's court on this one. If she wants the police to track down a 'kidnapper' to reclaim her child, she must give them a place to start. They must have enough truthful, verifiable information to know where the child was last sighted and with whom. KC wouldn't tell and still won't. That fact alone indicates a real problem.

Whatever may motivate a person to lie, steal or harm others is one thing...their response to such behavior is another. The apparent lack of remorse for these behaviors speaks volumes. The pervasiveness of the behavior does as well. Casey chose to lie about having a job instead of actually finding one. That isn't the behavior of someone who is attempting to take responsibility for herself or her child. This was a conscious decision she made about something well within her control.

It isn't a giant leap or pulling things out of thin air for someone to have the opinion that Casey is a sociopath/psychopath. There are many, many behaviors that may lead someone to that belief. It also isn't far-fetched to think that she harmed her child. That is a very reasonable, logical belief based upon the known facts of the case. Could this belief be wrong? Certainly and evidence presented in the courtroom may show as much.

Exactly, we aren't in a court of law here. We're in the court of public opinion. If KC wants the public to believe she didn't harm her child, that some kidnapper has her, if she wants the public to look for her child alive, then she needs to provide truthful information which can be verified so that any search isn't just a wild goose chase. If real people she knew took Caylee, they have real addresses, real work locations, real relatives and friends and real phone numbers. They have something real about them. If KC did something else wrong but Caylee's ok and KC is willing to be tried and go to jail to protect her secret or someone else, then that's her choice but unless and until Caylee's found, people are going to think the worst, particularly since so many other people have been pulled into this mess and had their lives disrupted by KC's inability or unwillingness to speak frankly. If Caylee is safe somewhere and KC knows that, it completely unbelievable that KC wouldn't simply produce her. Unless and until KC tells the truth with facts which can be supported, people will speculate.

 

[Knot4u2no]

We actually know very, very little about KC or her family at this point. A caricature has been created in the media, mainly due to a lack of information and the mysteries of this case, and the supposition that KC must be lying and then the speculation over "how could someone lie like that!" Then from there, the speculation springboards from that to what must the family be like, etc, etc. It's just amazing the diagnoses that have been offered over and over again in the media by professionals WHO HAVE NEVER EVEN MET KC ANTHONY MUCH LESS TESTED OR ASSESSED HER MEDICALLY OR PSYCHOLOGICALLY. This is highly unprofessional and unethical in my opinion. They don't usually even couch their comments in qualifying statements pointing out that they haven't met her before or that they are only guessing or that they are only discussing in general what a psychopath is like, etc, they say right out over and over what their diagnosis of her is. It's just very surprising that any professional would do that.

KC's mother and uncle have claimed that she is a psychopath/sociopath due to the theft of family money. She may also have stolen from AH. We still don't actually know all the circumstances relating to these money matters or what the truth is. If KC did actually steal this money from others she has a serious problem. Stealing can have many causes. Deprivations during childhood, lack of control in one's own life and a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness, it can be an addictive sort of compulsion that gives the thief an endorphin rush, it can be a compulsion akin to an eating disorder to momentarily alleviate feelings of worthlessness, or it can be stealing for purely practical reasons, i.e., not having what one needs and not having the preparation, knowledge, or training to know how to go about pursuing those things in the proper fashion. Some young single parents are in a catch-22 situation financially where they are simultaneously responsible for the babysitting of the child while at the same time needing to assume financial responsibility for the child by working. It can be tricky and hard for the young, unprepared, parent with no GED yet to know how to get into the work world properly and earn enough to support herself/himself and a child, while at the same time trying to make appropriate care arrangements for the child, unless they have a lot of help and support.
Some might resort to stealing if they are in a kind of crisis over this situation. You never know. Some kids learn to steal when parents are physically absent a lot, or when parents suffer from substance abuse and are mentally absent a lot, and kids actually need money to get what they need themselves.

LYING: Compulsive lying is known to develop in children who live in constant fear of punishment. That's one well-known developmental cause. Compulsive liars lie because they actually feel safer when they are lying than when they are telling the truth. They don't know how to simply tell the truth, they have no expectation of fairness from others. The punishment they grew up fearing may not necessarily have been from the parents. When they lie they subconsciously feel relieved to be avoiding a punishment they feel they would receive if they told the truth; they may simultaneously enjoy and find comfort in the false reality created in their lies.

Some children grow up not being allowed to tell the truth. For example, children who are molested may be told outright not to tell the truth by their abuser, or they may feel that they will be rejected by a parent or other loved one if they tell the truth. These can be at the root of lying, as can the unworthiness they feel as a result of the abuse they've suffered. Children who are harmed rather than protected by adults experience a complete erosion of trust.

Some children are actually raised in a lying culture, in which inaccuracies are tolerated or even encouraged. In some subcultures, kids are actually trained to deceive people outside of the family or social group. In some families, kids simply are lied to a lot and never learn a culture of truth. In some cultures, embellishing, exaggerating and story-telling are not seen as lying, in some cultures they are.

So there are lots of reasons kids can grow up with a lying problem that can continue into adulthood. Lying can be innocent or can be pathological. It can be conscious or not.

It is beginning to be recognized that lying may also have biological contributors, that genes causing particular chemical processes may predispose a person to lying. Whether for physical/chemical reasons or deeply engrained emotional reasons, some liars don't realize they are lying at the moment they lie, but may recognize it afterward and be deeply embarrassed. They may lie more and more to conceal the original lies. It's an emotionally painful, humiliating, and stressful condition. Other liars never face the reality that they are lying, for them, their tall tales take on a life of their own that they find comfort in, bordering on delusional belief or full-fledged delusional thinking.

Brain injuries can contribute to many mental illnesses and behaviors that fall outside of the societal norm, including lying. Brains can obviously be injured by chemicals, by disease, by physical trauma, and other causes.

So far, (a) we don't actually know whether or to what extent KCA is lying or isn't lying. We don't know what happened. Wait until a court case to find out what the actual evidence turns out to be.

(b) if she is lying, we don't yet know the cause, whether there is an organic brain disorder, a chemical dependancy problem, a learned behavior, whether she believes the alleged lies and is delusional, whether she is suffering from shock or emotional trauma which has disconnected her from reality, whether she might suffer from a seizure disorder that has caused her to miss or forget things that have happened (she was allegedly taken to the hospital once by a friend due to a seizure). There could be anything going on medically or otherwise that we simply don't know about. Of course it is possible that she is actually lying, and in a deliberate a purposeful manner, though in that case it is odd that she would tell lies that can be immediately disproved, as this does not serve any purpose and only ruins her credibility.

(c) There is NO evidence so far in this case that KC had any MOTIVE to harm her child or any desire to do so. There is no history of her being hostile toward her child or harmful toward her child. On the contrary, every single person interviewed who knew her said she was a doting and affectionate mother. The caricature created in the media of the KC who wanted to be rid of her daughter may be completely off the mark. The fact is, if KC had actually wanted to be rid of her daughter, she always knew that her mother would gladly take the child. KC said this to the police, and it is completely logical and appears to be true. Even during the pregnancy, when a school friend of KC's told her she would like to adopt the baby, KC did not take her up on her offer. She had never said at any time since then to anyone that she wanted to be free or rid of Caylee (at least not according to the people who were interviewed, including the one she allegedly stole from, as well as ex-boyfriends).

This persona created in the media of this cold blooded psychopathic murderer may be completely wrong. It has been very shocking to see how KCA has been vilified in the media, when the facts in this case are still not known, much less her mental state, how much of what she has been saying is true or untrue, her reason for not being forthcoming, etc. There could be many reasons why she would feel unable to tell the police where Caylee is, one possibility is that she is guilty of harming Caylee, another possibility is that she is guilty of something else that she doesn't want revealed, she could be covering for someone else, she could be genuinely afraid of telling who has Caylee or who has harmed Caylee, or, she could actually know (or believe) that Caylee is alive and safe. We don't know yet. M.O.O. of course, please excuse my typos

I think you raise some very important and debatable ethical points, keeping in mind that ethical guidelines in any field are quite dynamic.

Is it ethical for a mental health professional to give a private opinion in a public forum? Is it ethical for a professional to withhold information that might save a life or narrow the focus of an investigation that involves a life? Can they offer professional opinions anonymously on crime tip lines? In terms of ethics, in what ways does the field of psychiatry differ from other medical specialties? Better yet, in what ways does forensic psychiatry differ in ethical guidelines from general psychiatry? Forensic psychiatrists certainly do assessments that produce results that may be harmful to the patient, but the patient is not the agent being served. What you address in your post is generally referred to as the Goldwater Rule – i.e., guidelines for psychiatrists related to media interviews. To satisfy the Goldwater Rule, the psychiatrist must do an examination and be granted proper authorization (i.e., a waiver of confidentiality) in order to offer a professional opinion. Does this mean that criminals and suspects can essentially issue a gag order to psychiatrists by not allowing an evaluation or not providing a waiver of confidentiality? Is it a violation of the Goldwater Rule for a psychiatrist to offer an opinion that is not addressed by the Goldwater Rule – i.e., a personal opinion in a public forum when there is no interview by the media? Can a psychiatrist offer a professional or private/confidential opinion to LE or a prosecutor or a public defender without having conducted a direct evaluation of the suspect in a criminal case? Do psychiatrists forfeit their constitutional rights of free speech when they enter the profession?

For additional information about the Goldwater Rule:
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/10/2

Just my opinions,
Russell

 

[kiki the parrot]

Quote from Seagull: LYING: Compulsive lying is known to develop in children who live in constant fear of punishment. That's one well-known developmental cause. Compulsive liars lie because they actually feel safer when they are lying than when they are telling the truth. They don't know how to simply tell the truth, they have no expectation of fairness from others. The punishment they grew up fearing may not necessarily have been from the parents. When they lie they subconsciously feel relieved to be avoiding a punishment they feel they would receive if they told the truth; they may simultaneously enjoy and find comfort in the false reality created in their lies.

Some children grow up not being allowed to tell the truth. For example, children who are molested may be told outright not to tell the truth by their abuser, or they may feel that they will be rejected by a parent or other loved one if they tell the truth. These can be at the root of lying, as can the unworthiness they feel as a result of the abuse they've suffered. Children who are harmed rather than protected by adults experience a complete erosion of trust.

Some children are actually raised in a lying culture, in which inaccuracies are tolerated or even encouraged. In some subcultures, kids are actually trained to deceive people outside of the family or social group. In some families, kids simply are lied to a lot and never learn a culture of truth. In some cultures, embellishing, exaggerating and story-telling are not seen as lying, in some cultures they are.

So there are lots of reasons kids can grow up with a lying problem that can continue into adulthood. Lying can be innocent or can be pathological. It can be conscious or not.

ITA I find this analysis (and other insightful ones on this thread) so much more useful than the vitriol spewed throughout the forum. I'm far more interested in understanding the root causes of this tragedy than in bashing or venting. IMO these perceptions about lying and the reasons it is learned are accurate. I've repeatedly said the extremes, of self-centered, narcissistic parenting--harsh, overly critical intolerance of failure coupled w enabling and lack of consequences eg that I suspect in this family, and to some degree a narcissistic culture--contribute to the kind of narcissism we can most easily recognize in KC. The lying within this family gives us clues, a glimpse into what's going on underneath the veneer of the mother CA as well as mask worn by her troubled daughter. In addition to reasons above, at the heart of the lying in their case I believe is also narcissism that appears ingrained or endemic to this family and promotes the kind deception and self-deception we are seeing. I know Vaknin's been cited earlier in this thread so if this in particular was shared previously please skip (have read most but not all posts). The following article posted by Ann Bradley appears on another blogsite,

Language, Words, and Lies: A Narcissists Arsenal
"If we suspect that a man is lying, we should pretend to believe him; for then he becomes bold and assured, lies more vigorously, and is unmasked."- Arthur Schopenhauer

Narcissism and words

One of Sam Vaknin's quotes which most enthralls me is this one. It speaks to me so clearly; it hits me with a gut punch - it tells me the truth - and it makes me sick. I love words. I believe in the power of words. I believe that if truthful words are spoken, written, shared, they will be heard, and they will be answered. Not with a narcissist. You get sucker-punched in trying to explain something. There is no response to what is said. Words are deflected, twisted, questions answered with questions, non sequitors abound.

Sam Vaknin tells us:
"With the classic narcissist, language is used cruelly and ruthlessly to ensnare one's enemies, to sow confusion and panic, to move others to emulate the narcissist ("projective identification"), to leave the listeners in doubt, in hesitation, in paralysis, to gain control, or to punish. Language is enslaved and forced to lie. The language is appropriated and expropriated. It is considered to be a weapon, an asset, a piece of lethal property, a traitorous mistress to be gang raped into submission."

Joanna Ashmun warns us:
"The narcissists I've known have apparently always been "that way" and they get worse as they get older, with dramatic regression of their personas after the deaths of their parents and other personal authority figures who have previously exerted some control over the narcissists' bad behavior. And, yes, chronic depression gets to be obvious at least by their forties but may have always been present. Depressed narcissists blame the world, of course, and not themselves for their personal disappointments. Narcissists are threatened and enraged by trivial disagreements, mistakes, and misunderstandings, plus they have evil mouths and will say ANYTHING, so if you continue to live or work with narcissists, expect to have to clean up after them, expect to lose friends over them, expect big trouble sooner or later."

"Men hate those to whom they have to lie." - Victor Hugo

 

[kiki the parrot]

People (particularly emotionally, psychologically troubled people) operate on more than one level--and there is more than one way in which KC could have accomplished the end result of her self-centered idealized life. IMO the passive, subconscious negligence scenario, followed by self-preservation and deception are the most fitting with what we know about her narcissistic, disorganized, ill-disciplined and disordered personality. For starters, for a crime that's premediated there are FAR too many glaring, clumsy, frankly just plain stupid mistakes. (Without realizing, guess this is why my instincts or "mother's intuition" told me otherwise from the beginning.)

For premediation, she sure didn't execute a plan w the slightest coherence nor could she concoct one single story of remote credibility that could possibly hang together--but rather a series of poorly considered, indecisive, spur-of-the-moment, compulsive acts, followed by jumbled story after story, easily disprovable lie after lie. All of which have made me, from the beginning, think accident. In many tragic cases but particularly under age four (in a home where there just happens to be a swimming pool), neglect alone--poor parenting and selfish priorities--can EASILY cause a toddler's death. Exact date of chloroform searches yet to be officially released by LE, much speculation, conjecture, and misinformation being passed around. So until we know with certainty, for instance, that the chloroform was used on Caylee (vs trunk) PRIOR to her disappearance, then I'm allowing this may have been part of the cover-up. When the "flurry" of calls are made, she IS at home (prior to which she made only one customary call to be sure GA had left to maintain the lie that she was working, vs stealing, for a living). She was totally obsessed w her new boytoy, a new group of friends etc, so likely went there to use the internet and was too self-absorbed to watch her toddler. Within the HOUR she's trying every person possible, on every phone possible. So what could have happened there at that house, in the short span of 60 minutes? And if she was planning to do something, why in the world choose this location where she might be discovered by someone popping in? To further risk borrowing a shovel from a neighbor is yet another glaring indication this was in no way planned. Why take such a risk when she could have secured one beforehand w/out alerting neighbor. Besides, if you were planning a crime, there would be, all along in the commission of that crime a consciousness of guilt IMO, and you would be aware from that point forth that everything--from web searches and postings on social networking sites, to phone calls and text messages; from store purchases and stolen checks, to traffic and surveillance cams--is traceable and will all lead back to you. JMHO (I posted this on theory thread, but think it goes alot to her "state of mind."

 

[tiredofthis]

People (particularly emotionally, psychologically troubled people) operate on more than one level--and there is more than one way in which KC could have accomplished the end result of her self-centered idealized life. IMO the passive, subconscious negligence scenario, followed by self-preservation and deception are the most fitting with what we know about her narcissistic, disorganized, ill-disciplined and disordered personality. For starters, for a crime that's premediated there are FAR too many glaring, clumsy, frankly just plain stupid mistakes. (Without realizing, guess this is why my instincts or "mother's intuition" told me otherwise from the beginning.)

For premediation, she sure didn't execute a plan w the slightest coherence nor could she concoct one single story of remote credibility that could possibly hang together--but rather a series of poorly considered, indecisive, spur-of-the-moment, compulsive acts, followed by jumbled story after story, easily disprovable lie after lie. All of which have made me, from the beginning, think accident. In many tragic cases but particularly under age four (in a home where there just happens to be a swimming pool), neglect alone--poor parenting and selfish priorities--can EASILY cause a toddler's death. Exact date of chloroform searches yet to be officially released by LE, much speculation, conjecture, and misinformation being passed around. So until we know with certainty, for instance, that the chloroform was used on Caylee (vs trunk) PRIOR to her disappearance, then I'm allowing this may have been part of the cover-up. When the "flurry" of calls are made, she IS at home (prior to which she made only one customary call to be sure GA had left to maintain the lie that she was working, vs stealing, for a living). She was totally obsessed w her new boytoy, a new group of friends etc, so likely went there to use the internet and was too self-absorbed to watch her toddler. Within the HOUR she's trying every person possible, on every phone possible. So what could have happened there at that house, in the short span of 60 minutes? And if she was planning to do something, why in the world choose this location where she might be discovered by someone popping in? To further risk borrowing a shovel from a neighbor is yet another glaring indication this was in no way planned. Why take such a risk when she could have secured one beforehand w/out alerting neighbor. Besides, if you were planning a crime, there would be, all along in the commission of that crime a consciousness of guilt IMO, and you would be aware from that point forth that everything--from web searches and postings on social networking sites, to phone calls and text messages; from store purchases and stolen checks, to traffic and surveillance cams--is traceable and will all lead back to you. JMHO (I posted this on theory thread, but think it goes alot to her "state of mind."

Gread post. You made some valid points.

I keep going back and forth between it being premeditated and accidental, but I am leaning towards premeditated. I guess we will all find out in the end.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Why such a need to "split" good and evil? Maybe we're just more comfortable thinking in black and white terms because we want to see evil coming. We want to put a face on it, and divide the world neatly into "us," and "them." Maybe it is because I have raised four children, and have a 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter myself. Maybe it's because I can see traits of narcissism in my own daughter, a young mother, who hasn't always been willing to make the sacrifices or right choices on behalf of her child. Maybe it's because I see the way she tries to keep up with friends who are childless and struggles as a young single woman to balance the needs of her young child with her own. Maybe it's just because I have lived long enough to realize there are more people who are a mixture of good and bad than we'll ever see of people who are entirely one, or the other. Most of us fall somewhere in between. But if one is admittedly neither prepared to make the sacrifices of parenthood nor given true permission to relinquish that task; given neither an honest realistic sense of their faults, nor taught the natural consequences of acting irresponsibly; given neither adequate training for adulthood, nor permission to fail; if you have been reminded constantly you are an unfit mother, and then gone and proven your mother right... maybe it would make an already immature, self-centered borderline or narcissistic person feel so fearful and loathesome, they would at this point think only of self-preservation. (Also posted on theory thread, but reposted here as it too goes to "state of mind.") JMHO

 

[Capri]

People (particularly emotionally, psychologically troubled people) operate on more than one level--and there is more than one way in which KC could have accomplished the end result of her self-centered idealized life. IMO the passive, subconscious negligence scenario, followed by self-preservation and deception are the most fitting with what we know about her narcissistic, disorganized, ill-disciplined and disordered personality. For starters, for a crime that's premediated there are FAR too many glaring, clumsy, frankly just plain stupid mistakes. (Without realizing, guess this is why my instincts or "mother's intuition" told me otherwise from the beginning.)

For premediation, she sure didn't execute a plan w the slightest coherence nor could she concoct one single story of remote credibility that could possibly hang together--but rather a series of poorly considered, indecisive, spur-of-the-moment, compulsive acts, followed by jumbled story after story, easily disprovable lie after lie. All of which have made me, from the beginning, think accident. In many tragic cases but particularly under age four (in a home where there just happens to be a swimming pool), neglect alone--poor parenting and selfish priorities--can EASILY cause a toddler's death. Exact date of chloroform searches yet to be officially released by LE, much speculation, conjecture, and misinformation being passed around. So until we know with certainty, for instance, that the chloroform was used on Caylee (vs trunk) PRIOR to her disappearance, then I'm allowing this may have been part of the cover-up. When the "flurry" of calls are made, she IS at home (prior to which she made only one customary call to be sure GA had left to maintain the lie that she was working, vs stealing, for a living). She was totally obsessed w her new boytoy, a new group of friends etc, so likely went there to use the internet and was too self-absorbed to watch her toddler. Within the HOUR she's trying every person possible, on every phone possible. So what could have happened there at that house, in the short span of 60 minutes? And if she was planning to do something, why in the world choose this location where she might be discovered by someone popping in? To further risk borrowing a shovel from a neighbor is yet another glaring indication this was in no way planned. Why take such a risk when she could have secured one beforehand w/out alerting neighbor. Besides, if you were planning a crime, there would be, all along in the commission of that crime a consciousness of guilt IMO, and you would be aware from that point forth that everything--from web searches and postings on social networking sites, to phone calls and text messages; from store purchases and stolen checks, to traffic and surveillance cams--is traceable and will all lead back to you. JMHO (I posted this on theory thread, but think it goes alot to her "state of mind."

"Conciousness of guilt".....you would think, but who knows?

 

[krimekat]

dr. jekyll & mr. hyde

 

[mysterycat]

People (particularly emotionally, psychologically troubled people) operate on more than one level--and there is more than one way in which KC could have accomplished the end result of her self-centered idealized life. IMO the passive, subconscious negligence scenario, followed by self-preservation and deception are the most fitting with what we know about her narcissistic, disorganized, ill-disciplined and disordered personality. For starters, for a crime that's premediated there are FAR too many glaring, clumsy, frankly just plain stupid mistakes. (Without realizing, guess this is why my instincts or "mother's intuition" told me otherwise from the beginning.)

For premediation, she sure didn't execute a plan w the slightest coherence nor could she concoct one single story of remote credibility that could possibly hang together--but rather a series of poorly considered, indecisive, spur-of-the-moment, compulsive acts, followed by jumbled story after story, easily disprovable lie after lie. All of which have made me, from the beginning, think accident. In many tragic cases but particularly under age four (in a home where there just happens to be a swimming pool), neglect alone--poor parenting and selfish priorities--can EASILY cause a toddler's death. Exact date of chloroform searches yet to be officially released by LE, much speculation, conjecture, and misinformation being passed around. So until we know with certainty, for instance, that the chloroform was used on Caylee (vs trunk) PRIOR to her disappearance, then I'm allowing this may have been part of the cover-up. When the "flurry" of calls are made, she IS at home (prior to which she made only one customary call to be sure GA had left to maintain the lie that she was working, vs stealing, for a living). She was totally obsessed w her new boytoy, a new group of friends etc, so likely went there to use the internet and was too self-absorbed to watch her toddler. Within the HOUR she's trying every person possible, on every phone possible. So what could have happened there at that house, in the short span of 60 minutes? And if she was planning to do something, why in the world choose this location where she might be discovered by someone popping in? To further risk borrowing a shovel from a neighbor is yet another glaring indication this was in no way planned. Why take such a risk when she could have secured one beforehand w/out alerting neighbor. Besides, if you were planning a crime, there would be, all along in the commission of that crime a consciousness of guilt IMO, and you would be aware from that point forth that everything--from web searches and postings on social networking sites, to phone calls and text messages; from store purchases and stolen checks, to traffic and surveillance cams--is traceable and will all lead back to you. JMHO (I posted this on theory thread, but think it goes alot to her "state of mind."

well stated - you put in words what I have been thinking all along about it being a death of subconscious negligence.

 

[softsoul]

People (particularly emotionally, psychologically troubled people) operate on more than one level--and there is more than one way in which KC could have accomplished the end result of her self-centered idealized life. IMO the passive, subconscious negligence scenario, followed by self-preservation and deception are the most fitting with what we know about her narcissistic, disorganized, ill-disciplined and disordered personality. For starters, for a crime that's premediated there are FAR too many glaring, clumsy, frankly just plain stupid mistakes. (Without realizing, guess this is why my instincts or "mother's intuition" told me otherwise from the beginning.)

For premediation, she sure didn't execute a plan w the slightest coherence nor could she concoct one single story of remote credibility that could possibly hang together--but rather a series of poorly considered, indecisive, spur-of-the-moment, compulsive acts, followed by jumbled story after story, easily disprovable lie after lie. All of which have made me, from the beginning, think accident. In many tragic cases but particularly under age four (in a home where there just happens to be a swimming pool), neglect alone--poor parenting and selfish priorities--can EASILY cause a toddler's death. Exact date of chloroform searches yet to be officially released by LE, much speculation, conjecture, and misinformation being passed around. So until we know with certainty, for instance, that the chloroform was used on Caylee (vs trunk) PRIOR to her disappearance, then I'm allowing this may have been part of the cover-up. When the "flurry" of calls are made, she IS at home (prior to which she made only one customary call to be sure GA had left to maintain the lie that she was working, vs stealing, for a living). She was totally obsessed w her new boytoy, a new group of friends etc, so likely went there to use the internet and was too self-absorbed to watch her toddler. Within the HOUR she's trying every person possible, on every phone possible. So what could have happened there at that house, in the short span of 60 minutes? And if she was planning to do something, why in the world choose this location where she might be discovered by someone popping in? To further risk borrowing a shovel from a neighbor is yet another glaring indication this was in no way planned. Why take such a risk when she could have secured one beforehand w/out alerting neighbor. Besides, if you were planning a crime, there would be, all along in the commission of that crime a consciousness of guilt IMO, and you would be aware from that point forth that everything--from web searches and postings on social networking sites, to phone calls and text messages; from store purchases and stolen checks, to traffic and surveillance cams--is traceable and will all lead back to you. JMHO (I posted this on theory thread, but think it goes alot to her "state of mind."

Let me preface this by saying I'm not convinced this was a premeditated murder. However, premeditation doesn't necessarily involve detailed planning or cover-up. It can occur in a matter of seconds. You can decide to kill someone walking from one room to another. A poorly planned murder is a planned murder nonetheless. If you want to be logical about it you would wonder why, after weeks of "prep time", Casey didn't come up with a better story regardless of what she did or did not do to harm Caylee. Could it be she never thought anyone would question her lies? Sounds crazy to most of us but we have no idea what her expectations were. We also know she was able to get by with lying for years, with no one questioning her much, if at all, about her inconsistencies.

I also don't assume that everyone understands the capabilities of computer forensics. I know many past co-workers, who used the internet daily, who would have no idea that when you delete something it can easily be retrieved. Some of these people are in the same age-range as Casey. They learn what they need to know to do what they want to do. They aren't interested in putting forth effort to learn anything else. I think this is true of Casey...otherwise why delete all your emails, pictures, etc. if you know it does no good and may actually imply consciousness of guilt?

I honestly think Casey believed the whole world was as naive (or blind) as her parents. This belief was often reinforced by others...such as Amy who believed she hid her money while sleepwalking. I know for sure that regardless of whatever happened Casey did not do a good job of preparing for the inevitable confrontation. Or could she have believed that "she's with the nanny" was going to be good enough for a long time? Nothing would surprise me.

ETA: Another thing to consider is we don't know, and likely never will, any successful attempts Casey made at covering her tracks. If she did indeed murder Caylee she obviously knew how to effectively hide the body. There could have been an abundance of evidence she was able to destroy or hide. I'm not sure how easily the phone calls, IMs, stolen checks or store receipts could be used to prove murder.

 

[tiredofthis]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not convinced this was a premeditated murder. However, premeditation doesn't necessarily involve detailed planning or cover-up. It can occur in a matter of seconds. You can decide to kill someone walking from one room to another. A poorly planned murder is a planned murder nonetheless. If you want to be logical about it you would wonder why, after weeks of "prep time", Casey didn't come up with a better story regardless of what she did or did not do to harm Caylee. Could it be she never thought anyone would question her lies? Sounds crazy to most of us but we have no idea what her expectations were. We also know she was able to get by with lying for years, with no one questioning her much, if at all, about her inconsistencies.

I also don't assume that everyone understands the capabilities of computer forensics. I know many past co-workers, who used the internet daily, who would have no idea that when you delete something it can easily be retrieved. Some of these people are in the same age-range as Casey. They learn what they need to know to do what they want to do. They aren't interested in putting forth effort to learn anything else. I think this is true of Casey...otherwise why delete all your emails, pictures, etc. if you know it does no good and may actually imply consciousness of guilt?

I honestly think Casey believed the whole world was as naive (or blind) as her parents. This belief was often reinforced by others...such as Amy who believed she hid her money while sleepwalking. I know for sure that regardless of whatever happened Casey did not do a good job of preparing for the inevitable confrontation. Or could she have believed that "she's with the nanny" was going to be good enough for a long time? Nothing would surprise me.

I agree with you on this. Casey had never been held accountable for her actions in the past so why would she think things would change? I honestly believe she thought she could use the nanny excuse indefinitely and wouldn't be questioned.

I still think this was premeditated. Maybe she didn't plan well enough, but I believe there was a plan.

 

[Tuba]

Strange set of beliefs, strange expectations. I do think that she feels cleverly cunning and trusts that others are dupes. A web sleuth has said that Cindy wants and needs the lies. I think it is her emotional & mental food. She even appraises the fabrications, "It was very detailed!" It was Cindy that Casey always reported to and the lies were the lubricant of their getting along. Practiced and conditioned in lying in a way that is well received, Casey no doubt considers this a valued skill, even though her thumpers don't pass the horse laugh test outside the home. Even now, bolstered and encouraged by her att'y, she is of half a mind that she will "beat the rap". But he has to run that morale building tape all the time because she has seen the hard shell of the police, the prosecutor and the judges and on one level, she knows she is transparent to them and that they know a hawk from a handsaw.

 

[Black Magic Woman]

Krimekat, I just saw your post and signed the petition. Think this link should be on all the thread in order to get everyones attention and more signutures!

 

[kiki the parrot]

Softsoul: I'm not sure how easily the phone calls, IMs, stolen checks or store receipts could be used to prove murder.

ALL of the above can and ARE being used to pile up circumstancial evidence including tracing her movements during time period in question (before, during and following her daughter's disappearance) which may eventually lead to disposal site; disproving her lies, and alibis; proving consciousness of guilt; and establishing a motive.

 

[seagull65]

I haven' t seen anyone attempt to offer a medical opinion on Casey, they have offered opinions. Their opinions in this situation will not affect any medical treatment Casey may receive. If you consider the amount of info a therapist normally has prior to offering a medical opinion/diagnosis you would have to admit that it is usually very limited and skewed by the person presenting in a guarded manner. I'm not advocating making diagnosis via media, just highlighting that I do believe there is enough information for people to have opinions on Casey's psychological profile without being unethical or unprofessional.

There are a million reasons a person may act in a certain way. However, most people tend to base their opinions on the most reliable information. There is absolutely no evidence of kidnappers or that Casey is in fear for Caylee. Her own attorney states that it is in Casey's, not Caylee's, best interest for her not to share information.

Whatever may motivate a person to lie, steal or harm others is one thing...their response to such behavior is another. The apparent lack of remorse for these behaviors speaks volumes. The pervasiveness of the behavior does as well. Casey chose to lie about having a job instead of actually finding one. That isn't the behavior of someone who is attempting to take responsibility for herself or her child. This was a conscious decision she made about something well within her control.

It isn't a giant leap or pulling things out of thin air for someone to have the opinion that Casey is a sociopath/psychopath. There are many, many behaviors that may lead someone to that belief. It also isn't far-fetched to think that she harmed her child. That is a very reasonable, logical belief based upon the known facts of the case. Could this belief be wrong? Certainly and evidence presented in the courtroom may show as much.

People need to understand things and will seek out information to make sense of events. This is how we learn. If information comes along that disproves our understanding then we learn some more. Otherwise we'd still believe the world is flat. So I guess my point is that having an opinion based on reason isn't "wrong" although it may be proven wrong. If we were prescribing Casey medication or sentencing her to prison then we would be obligated to make sure we have all the information possible. However, to my knowledge no one here or in the media is doing this.

Hi Softsoul, I only said that I was quite shocked to see a couple of TV "psychotherapists" who repeatedly said, point blank, that KC is definitely a pathological liar, and is definitely a psychopath, that she definitely has no real feelings, that she doesn't care where her child is, that everything she has said is a lie, that her entire life has been a lie, that she has only used and manipulated everyone she ever met, and on and on with the complete speculation, when they have never even met KC Anthony or evaluated her.
They didn't say, "if it is shown in this case that she did in fact harm her child and everything she has said does turn out to have been a lie", etc. Not general statements about psychopathology. Specific statements about KC Anthony definitely being a psychopath and a pathological liar. One of these "psychotherapists" in particular has made very definitive statements about KC Anthony's character on prime time TV, over and over and over.
I stand by my post that I find it very unprofessional. I certainly never said that those people are not entitled to their opinion, if they get on TV and say, "please note, this is my personal opinion, not a diagnosis of KC Anthony, because I've never actually met or evaluated her and I only know what I've heard in the media myself" that would be very different. And no, this does not mean that I believe the world is flat.....


(p.s. I'm actually one of the people who loves to see brainstorming on the board and all theories explored)

 

[txsvicki]

About some compulsive liars, instead of fear of punishment they simply could have learned that lying is an easy way to get what they want or to get out of something if they are good enough at it.

 

[seagull65]

my point, which I know others have made on this board better than I have, was again simply that we see SO much repeated in this case as "fact", when it's only supposition and rumor, based on this caricature that's been created in the media. KC could certainly be involved in the disappearance, she could be lying about everything, but we don't know yet. The facts are not in. We also don't know her motives. There are very few facts that have been established at all in this case (as released to the public) so far: for example, (a) Caylee is missing, (b) her mother didn't report her as missing, (c) her mother has allegedly stolen money from a relative and a roommate.
Only after all the facts are known will we know who has been lying and how much. It's very interesting to speculate about KC's personality or the personalities and dynamics in the family, but most of what you see usually is based at the core on this caricature, not on facts, because so few facts are known.
And you see a lot of false "facts". For example, you often see it repeated as fact that KC had wanted to get rid of her child. But in fact, everyone who was interviewed (including the friend she had allegedly stolen from) said that she had a normal and affectionate attachment to her daughter, that she loved her, that she had not wanted to get rid of her in any way, that she never showed hostility toward her, that she cared about her health and welfare, etc. That's why they are also baffled when they keep hearing in the media what a psychopath and monster KC is and then these poor young people say, "I guess we didn't actually know her at all.... it's not the same KC..." KMT who approached KC during the pregnancy and said she would like to adopt the child if KC did not want to keep her, told LE that KC had not been interested in her offer.
Yet you hear the exact opposite frequently stated as a "fact", a "given", and then speculation about KC and her attachment to the child, based on that. Of course people can theorize about the personalities involved, nothing wrong with that, the posts on this thread that I've seen are very insightful and interesting, most of the people here state opinions as opinion only and admit most of the facts are not known, and so on.